One thing that really frustrates me about this game is waiting around to do whatever it is I want to do. I am sure this is true for just about everyone. I have been doing a bit of reading about how other MMOs do things and how they address player interaction. Frankly, this frustration is not unique with SWTOR. I have experienced the same frustrations in other MMOs that shared a similar ssocial organization as this one. My point is this. The way the servers are set up in this game is the old way of doing things. When I first started playing MMOs, almost a decade ago, the same organization of servers was being used. Newer MMOs should be trying to do new things when it comes to social organization and many of them are, but SWTOR has not embraced this change. I feel that moving forward, Bioware really needs to take a serious look at how the social structure of this game is organized. It should appear that we are all playing on the same server but with ways to personalize your experience within that one server.

 

I logged off tonight while waiting in a queue. A player should be able to log in and do what they want to do and not stand around waiting on a queue to pop. There are just too many other alternatives for people to entertain themselves online for this game to have players waiting around in queues. It is a problem.

Interesting. Can you actually propose an alternative? If so it might have merit (at least to generate discussion).

I was wondering if he was suggesting cross-server capability, even cross-server zones like MoP supposedly does.

But as long as there is an imbalance of combat roles, the over-represented role will ALWAYS be waiting, regardless of the size of the pool.

 

But if we're talking about even bigger changes, it sounds like a suggestion to get rid of instancing and do PVP/PVE strictly in an open-world manner like old Ilum/world bosses. And I'm just not confident that would ever work in a game like this, for many reasons. One of them is the population fluctuation between primetimes.

 

I'm not saying it can't be done, but again, probably not in a game like this.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Stenrik

But as long as there is an imbalance of combat roles, the over-represented role will ALWAYS be waiting, regardless of the size of the pool.

 

That's very true so cross server LFG wouldn't necessarily help anything for these players. In fact on our now consolidated servers the people complain because they used to be one of a bunch of DPS on their server and now they are one in a ton of DPS on their server.

 

Since a game will never be able to force you into a play style if you really want to maximize the grouping mechanic tanks and healers are the most in demand. Depending on the server you'll see which is needed more and you might even play a character like that for more consistent pops.

 

This is the only real drawback I see to the 4 man group structure. In the 5 man group balanced game you are taking an extra DPS out of the potential pool.

 

There are ways around this though. Make friends and set up your own groups would be the first one I can think of.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Tim-ONeil

This is the only real drawback I see to the 4 man group structure. In the 5 man group balanced game you are taking an extra DPS out of the potential pool.

Yeah I remember making a topic awhile back that questioned the devs' decision for 4-man groups. I guess they wanted this as something help differentiate themselves from WoW. And they probably wanted to avoid 6, as starts feeling less like a group and more like an ops, so they settled with 4. Also people would be winning conversation roles less frequently as 5 or 6, and would probably start feeling distanced from the cutscenes.

 

It would have been interesting if they had a system that allowed more than 4 in a raid, and just scaled with difficulty. However, then they'd have to scale the loot too, since people would reject any other dps after the 4-man group was reached, for a better chance at drops...

 

So yeah, no good suggestions from me on that one.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Stenrik

I might have missed the point here, but what exactly is the suggested alternative?

I might have missed the point here, but what exactly is the suggested alternative?

 

There wasn't one sadly. We've been doing the OP's work for him I guess.

We definately need a more updated social structuring. I think it's best when you can really relate to your character.

To do this:

You enter your yearly income

You're ethnicity

You're age

Using these traits, all your clothing, monetary and item rewards are scaled to reflect your social standing.

Lowest income earners, your clothing options range from rags to checkered shirts.

Top 10% income earners must wear corusanty formal clothing at all times.

There are also certain sections of the republic fleet which cater to certain ethnicities which allow for discounts in your own chosen ethnicity.

If I am reading you correctly, your beef is that the game isnt hand holding enough to cause social things to happen. You are mad because you wait all day for a group que to pop and it doesnt pop often enough.

 

Here is a way to fix that. Instead of waiting for the game to make social interaction happen... Be social. Make some friends and play with them instead of waiting for a que. I cant believe you need to be hand held to be social. Thats kind of anti social.

 

Its like going on facebook and expecting the website to populate your friends list and force communication between people. Its like going to a bar and expecting the bartender to hook you up with a date.

We definately need a more updated social structuring. I think it's best when you can really relate to your character.

To do this:

You enter your yearly income

You're ethnicity

You're age

Using these traits, all your clothing, monetary and item rewards are scaled to reflect your social standing.

Lowest income earners, your clothing options range from rags to checkered shirts.

Top 10% income earners must wear corusanty formal clothing at all times.

There are also certain sections of the republic fleet which cater to certain ethnicities which allow for discounts in your own chosen ethnicity.

 

thats a good idea,,i dont like poor people,,,why? because they were stupid enough to let me take their stuff:D

This is what happens when you use old school classes. I still like Champions Online character creator because I can make a custom toon from look to powers. When it comes down to grouping, depending on your set up, you can dps, tank and self heal. The backfire to that is people solo a lot in that game too but Cryptic just added group incentives late. Bioware has group incentives but made it hard to find a group. It felt like playing COH, where I can't do anything without a group. I feel that gets old. Paying and logging into a game then sitting around.

 

PVP needs a cross server queue, PVE does not, most of the advanced classes are damage type anyway so what is the point. Dual spec will not help unless they got a instant set up where my skill points and armor changes with a click. Suggestion? Nothing you can do about it, the game itself is using a archaic system of follow the tank while the healer purely heals. I would like more mobs that do less damage so the battles don't end so quickly without a healer. Flashpoints and ops are too "threat and heals" dependent. Story mode is better because mobs do not do OP damage.

 

One of my biggest complaints in all video games is this; MORE DAMAGE AND HEALTH DOES NOT = DIFFICULTY. COMPLICATED BOSS MECHANICS AND PATTERNS WITH HIGH RISK VS LOW RISK REWARDS = FUN BOSS BATTLES. Example. Fight a boss in easy,normal and hard and it is the same exact battle. Fight a boss in easy, normal and hard and he uses new tactics that are not instant kill but causes you to be more active= First boss in Lost Island. That robot in Lost Island does not really do a lot of damage but the combination of the bubbles, lava, add ons and incinerate= Good time.

Edited October 24, 2012 by SentinelDranoel

New and innovative social stuff? Great idea OP, I'd like to see it too.

 

Standing around waiting in queues, that one's on you dude. Go do something, the Fleet Party Wagon won't be spawning and following you around for at least a few more patches.

Interesting. Can you actually propose an alternative? If so it might have merit (at least to generate discussion).

 

I purposely remained ambiguous as to not point out how other MMOs are doing things. I didn't want to come off as a fanboy of some other game. What inspired me to post this was the reading about some other game that is currently in development. I thought their ideas were interesting.

 

Also, I think it kind of strange that MMOs are still setting their servers up the way they are when time and time again the same issues pop up. I would have thought with such competition and advances in technology that newer games would have innovated and changed by now. I have seen some moving away from the old standard PVE,PVP, RP servers and integrating them into one server that is phased and allows for more grouping and social options for players.

 

I am not really offering an alternative, but I feel that too many MMOs have stuck with the same thing for too long and create the same social problems over and over again. I would like for swtor to try something else.

I purposely remained ambiguous as to not point out how other MMOs are doing things. I didn't want to come off as a fanboy of some other game. What inspired me to post this was the reading about some other game that is currently in development. I thought their ideas were interesting.

 

Also, I think it kind of strange that MMOs are still setting their servers up the way they are when time and time again the same issues pop up. I would have thought with such competition and advances in technology that newer games would have innovated and changed by now. I have seen some moving away from the old standard PVE,PVP, RP servers and integrating them into one server that is phased and allows for more grouping and social options for players.

I am not really offering an alternative, but I feel that too many MMOs have stuck with the same thing for too long and create the same social problems over and over again. I would like for swtor to try something else.

 

So basically you are looking for a "multi-shard-mega-server" were the physical servers are transparent to the player. There would essentually be only one "realm" to log into. OWPvP only in certain "PvP zones" (a la Anarchy Online) with the "realm" being a PvE with designated PvP zones and no "role playing" ( has a game ever enforced real RP conventions?). Something like that?

Oh dear god dont ask to remove instancing. I will not go back to the days of early EQ guilds and people rushing, racing to the boss that just popped. Guilds C@ckblocking each other causing server drama momma's that lead to messages boards blowing up with hatred. Guilds training others causing them to fail till their guild gets on.

 

Instancing made MMO's even better.

 

 

To the OP as others have stated either make a group, make friends, join a guild or enjoy the long waits.

The standard "Entertainment Bite" world wide is 2 people 2 hours; "a couple", an evening of entertainment.

 

The first game that has the courage to buck the trend and go with that will win it all.

 

As it stands there are still a lot of game developers who really think that my wife and I want to play with 8-16 strangers and loud mouth kids; not we dispise that aspect of these games.

The standard "Entertainment Bite" world wide is 2 people 2 hours; "a couple", an evening of entertainment.

 

The first game that has the courage to buck the trend and go with that will win it all.

 

As it stands there are still a lot of game developers who really think that my wife and I want to play with 8-16 strangers and loud mouth kids; not we dispise that aspect of these games.

 

Isnt that the case in the meaning of MMO? Not DUO. IF they only made, developed and tiered it to DUo's trust me alot of people wouldnt play. The game be to easy and not to enticing.

actually waiting time is very important to mmos,,that is where the social action of the game is

 

also gives time for stretching, getting drinks, bathroom

 

and this game could use more of that,,the "instant group-teleport" system is very bad in that way

 

back in the old days we met in the nearest town, and fought our way to the dungeon, so when we got there

 

, we had already "connected" a little,,also some of the funniest stuff in wow happened at social hubs

 

at auction house, waiting for the boat or zeppelin,,those funny small episodes never happns here

One of my biggest complaints in all video games is this; MORE DAMAGE AND HEALTH DOES NOT = DIFFICULTY. COMPLICATED BOSS MECHANICS AND PATTERNS WITH HIGH RISK VS LOW RISK REWARDS = FUN BOSS BATTLES. Example. Fight a boss in easy,normal and hard and it is the same exact battle. Fight a boss in easy, normal and hard and he uses new tactics that are not instant kill but causes you to be more active= First boss in Lost Island. That robot in Lost Island does not really do a lot of damage but the combination of the bubbles, lava, add ons and incinerate= Good time.

I'm going to focus on the highlighted part. This first boss uses the mechanics of adds, interrupts, dot cleansing, and avoiding fire on the ground (aoe damage circles). Those mechanics are nothing new. They've been in MMO's for years and years. It's very hard to do anything different in terms of boss mechanics. Sometimes you'll get it right, and other times you won't, but more often than not, it'll feel like it's just another generic boss fight with some little gimic.

 

Look at the Dread Guards in TFB. They are:

Tank swaps

DPS burn

Avoid Green Circles (unless you have Doom)

Interrupt

Run away from boss

Kill Adds

Kill bosses in a certain order

 

Those are pretty standard mechanics.

 

I am not really offering an alternative, but I feel that too many MMOs have stuck with the same thing for too long and create the same social problems over and over again. I would like for swtor to try something else.

It's not enough to try something different. It's gotta be something that is good. Basically wanting change w/out giving some ideas to change... that's not really helping. You might as well say, "I want a better MMO." And when people ask for suggestions, you just shrug your shoulders.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Lostpenguins

So basically you are looking for a "multi-shard-mega-server" were the physical servers are transparent to the player. There would essentially be only one "realm" to log into. OWPvP only in certain "PvP zones" (a la Anarchy Online) with the "realm" being a PvE with designated PvP zones and no "role playing" ( has a game ever enforced real RP conventions?). Something like that?

 

Pretty close. The the players who select OWPVP as one of their profile options will only see other players with that option checked. All areas in the game are OWPVP to them. They would still be able to access other players through group finder to do flashpoints and such because they are actually on the same server, just in a different shard. RP players could have similar options as well. Basically I would like to have access to the entire player population for some things and only some of the population for other things.

 

Not only that, I would like the game to be intelligent and suggest friends that have similar gaming habits. Much like twitter and facebook does. The game could recognize when and how often you are online and what you like to do and pair you with other players with similar habits. Often you find people in the game that you like, but they play the game a lot differently than you do. It either forces you to play the way they like to play or them to play the game the way you like to play. it would be helpful for the game to offer suggestions based on actual data that will give you a good match for grouping and friends. The technology exists for that and many MMOs are going to start using it.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Pcolapat

That's very true so cross server LFG wouldn't necessarily help anything for these players. In fact on our now consolidated servers the people complain because they used to be one of a bunch of DPS on their server and now they are one in a ton of DPS on their server.

 

Since a game will never be able to force you into a play style if you really want to maximize the grouping mechanic tanks and healers are the most in demand. Depending on the server you'll see which is needed more and you might even play a character like that for more consistent pops.

 

This is the only real drawback I see to the 4 man group structure. In the 5 man group balanced game you are taking an extra DPS out of the potential pool.

 

There are ways around this though. Make friends and set up your own groups would be the first one I can think of.

 

While you cannot force players into roles they may not like, you can encourage them to at least try. Blizzard did this in WoW by creating a system of rewarding players to queue in under-represented roles. The rewards were limited but the chance (no matter how minute) to get that cool mount or vanity pet, balanced the queue times: prior to this system DPS queue times were upwards of an hour (on average during peak times) even with cross-server grouping, with the reward system in place DPS queue times dropped to 20 minutes (on average during peak times). The funny part is that even after a 66% decrease in average queue time for DPS players still complained:rolleyes:

 

Yes, initially there were a lot of "bad" tanks and healers. But that did not last nearly as long as some claimed it would or as long as some claim it did.

 

Further, in all candor SWTOR is a LOT easier than WOW. I have done a number of HM (tier 1) FPs with only three - two DPS and me as healer. You have to be a little more careful about CC and not pulling too much, and you do wipe a little more, but it can be done. My point is that even with the potential for "bad" healers and tanks, groups can muddle through with a little patience and attention to detail.

In 1.5 you'll be able to respec for free as a subscriber making a dual spec a reality and giving extra incentive for the field respec droid.

 

This should help if you want to be proactive and change your role to get into groups faster. The only thing you can control in an MMO is what you do yourself.

Pretty close. The the players who select OWPVP as one of their profile options will only see other players with that option checked. All areas in the game are OWPVP to them. They would still be able to access other players through group finder to do flashpoints and such because they are actually on the same server, just in a different shard. RP players could have similar options as well. Basically I would like to have access to the entire player population for some things and only some of the population for other things.

 

That is interesting. Perhaps people could "flag" for each mode and only see people in those modes kinda like blizzard phasing. So as you said OWPvP would have the full run of the "realm" but only see people that "opt in". If you flag "RP" then you would only see people who "RP".

I purposely remained ambiguous as to not point out how other MMOs are doing things. I didn't want to come off as a fanboy of some other game. What inspired me to post this was the reading about some other game that is currently in development. I thought their ideas were interesting.

Praising a game's good points is not necessarily being a 'fanboy' of the game. And would be rather key to let those of us know what you actually think would work.

 

Also, I think it kind of strange that MMOs are still setting their servers up the way they are when time and time again the same issues pop up. I would have thought with such competition and advances in technology that newer games would have innovated and changed by now. I have seen some moving away from the old standard PVE,PVP, RP servers and integrating them into one server that is phased and allows for more grouping and social options for players.

The problem that comes up, again and again, is the fault of the players and not the game mechanics itself. A lot of players like the lack of responsibility that comes with DPSing, and so MMO games will ALWAYS have a surplus of them. They have a need to be 'top' of the chart, something you rarely do when you are tanking or healing. To be honest, I'd like to see classic UO come back... but the type of person that plays MMOs today make it impossible.

 

I am not really offering an alternative, but I feel that too many MMOs have stuck with the same thing for too long and create the same social problems over and over again. I would like for swtor to try something else.

Trying new things can (and has) been the downfall of MMOs in the past. The only way to remove this issue with LFG ques is to remove roles all together. But this does not necessarily work well. Think GW2, running the instance with a group of thieves is possible but slow and sometimes very painful. There will be a few 'elite' players who can still do it quickly without a problem, but as a whole the "No Role" concept simply does not work out flawlessly in this game. (Don't mistake this for bashing GW2, I think it is an enjoyable game.)

 

A lot of the big MMO gaming companies do keep an eye on new projects. Elder Scrolls Online, for example, promises a no class type of game play. But the question remains if it will require you to fill a certain roll if instances/group zones exist. If there are no roles to 'fill' the next question is 'how well does it work'. If a company were to stumble upon the solution, I can almost promise that other MMOs would adopt the solution in some way as quickly as possible. (Mimicry is the greatest form of flattery after all).

 

But instead of removing roles, why not simply 'opt' a larger group (slightly harder instance) and allow more DPS into said group? For example if we have 2 tanks and 2 healers in que, but 9 dps, you will have 5 people sitting out until the next tank and healer que up. But if the system were to place 4 dps in the group (making it a group of 6) you would only have 1 dps sitting out. The problem would be coding such a system. The problem would be adjusting current flashpoints. The problem would be balancing loot to compensate for more players. (Same amount of loot but more players never ends well.)

 

Quite honestly my solution is this; Get more people to play as tanks/healers and que up.

In 1.5 you'll be able to respec for free as a subscriber making a dual spec a reality and giving extra incentive for the field respec droid.

 

This should help if you want to be proactive and change your role to get into groups faster. The only thing you can control in an MMO is what you do yourself.

 

If they ADDED an option to the interface editor to "save button configurations" this would be a "work around for" or "way to implement" dual spec and incentivize people to buy the field respec as you said, rather than have to go back to the fleet.