I don't mean this to be mean, but I wonder if some of the "Ashara should fully submit to our will and deserves to die for not doing so" vs the complete acceptance of Andronikos jacking up your ships and stealing from you (and also clearly never having been submissive to you) is an unconscious bias of "it's ok if men are aggressive and dominant but women should be submissive"?

I would agree, to an extent, that this may be part of the case. Or it could just be a dislike for the overall character bleeding into it- if you already dislike a character, any excuse to hate them is good enough.

But I would also like to bring up that, were this the case, the collective meltdown over Quinn wouldn't have been nearly as bad, seeing as for once he actually did enact some aggression. Though, I do think that a lot of the hate for Quinn is founded in the whole "he's a subservient man and that's bad" mentality, which is equally as sexist as "if women are aggressive that's bad".. So I'm not sure which of these is the chicken or the egg.

But, with all of that said, even if some outdated mentalities might play into it on some level or another, I'm fairly certain that the primary reason people aren't as discriminating about characters like Andronikos, is because it's perfectly in-character for them to act out or behave badly. Such is also the case with Kaliyo, Tanno Vik, Gault, etc. We're not necessarily surprised when they go against the player, make decisions without consulting the player, and generally misbehave. It's what you've come to expect from them, and for some people, that might be part of what they like about the character.

Whereas when a usually obedient and easygoing character decides to engage in an altercation or otherwise behave poorly, it comes as a shock- and usually raises the ire of those who appreciated said character's cooperative demeanour.

I don't necessarily think Ashara's behaviour warrants the backlash it's gotten, but I do agree with her opposition that for a character as powerful and influential as the Inquisitor (a member of the Dark Council, no less) to be made a fool of by a young Jedi dropout is a little insulting, especially if your character was the full-on Dark Side domineering type. I don't think we should be able to kill whatever companions we want, but I do think that if one's character has the inclination for it, punishment of some type should be an option, even if it's only the player making the choice to send her away for good.

People were allowed to force choke Quinn, after all- and he was strong-armed into doing what he did, he had no choice. Ashara, on the other hand, is acting of her own free will and defying a Sith, and even though her defiance isn't quite on the same level as outright betrayal, defying a Sith is something that always has the chance of consequences in SWTOR. So, even though I don't engage in the Dark Side style of gameplay, I can understand why some may feel cheated.

I feel like this post has gone all over the shop, and I'm sorry for that, lol. But the longer I look at this phenomenon, the more there is to unpack, it seems.

Plot-hole or not it's canon now. Just dropping things that didn't turn out the way you wanted out of lore is not how lore works there is some terrible canon lore in legends. There is some seriously terrible nonsensical lore in new Disney Canon. They don't just go away because we wish them to.

I was explaining why I, personally, am not too bothered by Andronikous not knowing who ran the Alliance. I am far more forgiving of something that was most likely an oversight by the writer, than something that was very intentional by the writer. The onus belongs on the writer, not the character in those situations.

People mature at different rates. There is some really childish under 30y olds and some really mature 15 year olds. Age should not be an argument here.

Perhaps I misunderstood you. It seemed like you were trying to defend Ashara's behavior by referring to her as a teenager. If you didn't think she was a teenager then why did you keep talking about how teenage girls behave?

I think you guys are consistently ignoring the fact that Ashara isn't actually ever a sith or technically your apprentice. The game explicitly says this. Both Ashara herself talks about how she's a jedi and that she's only "working with" a sith and Zash says "fallen or not, this one can hardly be called sith" and makes you get a real apprentice: Xalek. You can view it as "Ashara is a sith apprentice and bound to serve me" but neither of those statements is true. She stays a jedi and she never takes any kind of oath to serve you. She comes with you because she has nowhere else to go, not because she wants to join the sith order or be your servant. At most she says she'll spread your teachings to your followers/children at the end (like every character does). I'm not the one going against the story here.

Fair enough. I'll need to pay more attention during my next play-through. I thought she was often referred to as your apprentice and that she referred to herself as your apprentice and you as her master. I also thought she had largely distanced herself from the Jedi by the end, even though she didn't fully embrace being a Sith. But that is immaterial to the discussion. Does the Inquisitor think of her as her apprentice? I certainly thought so, and clearly a number of other players thought so. The crux of the problem is that dark side Inquisitors were not given a lore appropriate way to respond to Ashara's actions. It's not that Ashara acted as she did, she has always been in her own little world.

How can you say Andronikos wasn't subservient to you but Ashara was? Everyone is beneath a sith, everyone on your ship is your employee/subordinate in some way and if you believe Ashara is a sith apprentice (which she's not) then she herself would have a much higher status that a non-force user, who isn't a high ranking noble or imperial moff or something. Quinn and Pierce are not social equals to a sith warrior, they are her employees. Andronikos is your employee. Just because he's an employee you like (and maybe have a romantic affair with) doesn't mean he's your social equal. Do you think the sith would believe that Andronikos was the SI's equal and free to leave her any time even if she wanted him to stay? Lol no. He'd be seen as her pet by the Empire.

Again, I don't recall Andronikos signing on to be an employee. I could be wrong, but it came across to me that he was a pirate captain who lost his ship and threw his lot in with the SI. More like a business partner. He is outside of the Empire's social structure and never gave any impression that he bought into it. He most certainly would have left if he wanted. Whether the Inquisitor would have let him go uncontested is another matter, in fact the exact one we are debating with Ashara. Even if he were just an employee, even in the Empire, employees aren't slaves and don't have life long contracts. Apprentices, on the other hand, are bound to their masters until they have proven they are ready to move on.

Why does she have to be some kind of slave when Andronikos, Lana, Theron, Arcann, Senya, Hylo, Vette, etc...(well the ones you kept alive anyway) are treated as comrades? It makes no sense other than "I hate the character and want her to suffer so shut up." Hate her all you want, ask for kill options all you want, but don't pretend it's not a huge double standard/inconsistency to treat these two subordinates so differently. ...]

Because, if she was an apprentice she was bound to the SI like an indentured servant. That is how the system worked! Andronikos, Lana, Theron, Arcann, Senya and Hylo were not apprentices they were compatriots, partners and allies. (Vette is another issue, I don't recall her ever being freed, only getting her collar removed.) It is not a double standard. They are completely different relationships with different sets of expectations and obligations.

I think what they tried to get across with Ashara (and maybe did not always succeed) was that she was very, very naive and sheltered. She's from an order where independent thought isn't encouraged (the Jedi don't really seem to sit around debating the Jedi code). In those holos of Ashara that you find on Taris the Jedi essentially smack down her questions. .

I think it's a bit of an understatement to say that Ashara has a "bit of a pride problem" after you've viewed the holos on Taris. She's argumentative and constantly second guessing her masters, but she's also quite smart/knowledgeable and a skilled with a lightsaber. She's far less the model jedi that Jaesa seems to be, while admittedly turning Jaesa has more screen time there's no equivalent for Ashara (who gets her entire enclave and masters slaughtered just for starters).

The whole Arcann situation....just ugh. Like Vaylin, he should have had a memorable death scene. The studio could easily have either created a force using male character or (better yet) brought Scourge back as a part of KOTET.

I actually thought Lana was very protective of Theron in the Nathema story once she figured out he was telling the truth about being a double agent. She's the first one to run to him when he gets hurt and if the player wants to leave him behind, she disagrees and tries to talk the PC out of that. You can tell she's not happy, and when you're all back on Odessen, she again conveys that she didn't like leaving Theron to die.

I agree with this completely. Lana's growing sympathy for Theron during Nathema occasioned the first time my sage has actually felt close to Lana. And it wasn't just because Lana was coming around to my sage's view on Theron - it was because both Lana and Theron were reconsidering actions of theirs from years ago on Rishi that they'd had very set opinions about for a long time. They were willing to meet in the middle on an old, painful subject, and my sage really appreciated that. Showing Lana clearly and deeply caring for someone other than my main character was such a nice moment.

Until to that point, my sage and Lana had a very strange relationship whereby my sage hardly ever did what Lana wanted but Lana seemed almost obsessively devoted towards her - like there was some standard relationship in which Lana and my character were meant to be, and the game acted like that's what actually existed even though it didn't. It's a less extreme version of what Nefla's saying here...

To me Lana like a lost puppy following us around and fawning all over us no matter what we do or say. She may disagree with a choice in the moment but she gets over it in a snap and it never comes up again. With my most recent character I went out of my way to test this, I was extremely mean to her and every opportunity, blatantly crapped on the Empire at every turn (even when doing those things made my character an idiot like firing on Imperial ships instead of Revanite ones or telling Lana to shut up and not tell him what to do but then doing that exact thing anyway because it was the next part of the quest). It got so ridiculous that even my friend who also hates Lana felt sorry for her. So I did all that, when we parted on Yavin I told her I'd kill her if we ever met again, and then in KotFE she still gives me the "it's so good to see you <3" line and every line was the same. The game acts as if you're BFFs no matter what and it's infuriating.

Yeah, I've had a couple of characters (not my sage) who've treated Lana horrendously, and it seems to have no impact outside of the scenes where they do that. She acts like their creepy fan in spite of how mean they are. The issue is there with Theron too (though I don't think he seems quite so devoted). I have one particular DS agent who despises Theron purely due to the SIS thing and who never fails to take whatever option will make Theron feel the worst. (Occasionally auto-dialogue will make him say something positive to Theron, which drives me absolutely bananas; I try to just pretend it didn't happen.) This agent is a monster. Theron's fake betrayal in this case should've been 100% real. But no, apparently it was just as fabricated as all the others, bah. As you say, it's infuriating.

(FWIW I have never left him to die because that scene is horrifying, but some of my Commanders have kicked him out of the Alliance on Odessen. I've watched it all on YouTube, though.)

Yes, the scene is gut-wrenchingly sad. But of course my jerk-face agent absolutely did it. He'd been waiting for such a chance since he met Theron. Any character with whom I personally identify could never do that, but the game lets us play people we could never actually be. I think it's part of what gives this game so much replay value.

I don't mean this to be mean, but I wonder if some of the "Ashara should fully submit to our will and deserves to die for not doing so" vs the complete acceptance of Andronikos jacking up your ships and stealing from you (and also clearly never having been submissive to you) is an unconscious bias of "it's ok if men are aggressive and dominant but women should be submissive"?

Personally - commenting here on the writing itself rather than the reaction to it - I see some unconscious bias of a different kind. I say this with particular regard to post-KotET returns. A lot of the missing female companions have forged their own paths as strong, independent women. It's implied that they don't need an excuse not to have rescued the PC - they were not expected to do that. By contrast, many of the male companions seem to have dedicated themselves to searching for the PC and/or suffered horrifically. There seems to be the implication that they'd need excuses for not having rescued the PC, so they're given really good excuses. (Some of those excuses I think we'd have to be genuinely terrible people not to accept.) I'm not sure exactly what commentary this presents on masculinity and femininity but it does make me feel a bit uncomfortable.

Maybe Ashara was simply stronger than Jaesa. Think about it.

Jaesa is constantly doubting herself, her master, your master and you the warrior before you recruit her. She made some hasty calls without her master and doubts her master in thinking her close ones are getting hurt because her master has beef with Baras. And her transformation is very extreme, her entire mentality changes, and we did that only by talking to her... the change doesn't seem forced to me at all.

It's rare to see a Jedi turn to the dark side in any bit of lore and change this radically. Dooku is a good example, his character stayed consistent from Jedi to Sith when he got new master and switched sides.

Then again Ashara always wants to have her way. She doesn't like being a follower, she doesn't constantly ask for guidance like Jaesa does, mentally she is a lot more independent. It makes sense to me we couldn't just turn her with a flick of our fingers.

 

Well I think it's just that they are in a very different set of circumstances. Baras spends a huge chunk of Chapter 1 specifically plotting how to break Jaesa by killing people who matter to her. The Inquisitor doesn't even try to do anything comparable in an to attempt to expose Ashara to her raw emotions. Secondly, whether light or dark, Jaesa commits herself 100% to that ideal. She's a true believer in the power of the darkside or the Jedi way. Ashara is exactly the opposite. She changes her mind a lot and doesn't seem to want to fit in with either the Jedi or the Sith.

I wThough, I do think that a lot of the hate for Quinn is founded in the whole "he's a subservient man and that's bad" mentality, which is equally as sexist as "if women are aggressive that's bad".. So I'm not sure which of these is the chicken or the egg.

Quinn hater here, so I wanted to chime in on this one. While I agree both tropes/expectations are bad and sexist (ie, disliking women because they're aggressive and men because they are subservient), I think that's not necessarily the reason some of us dislike Quinn. And yes, I know those of you who love Quinn probably have a counter for each of these points, so I will point out that I'm just saying why I personally can never stand him.

There's the excessive flattery (the line he says when he meets the Sith Warrior again on Iokath, about "looking more potent than ever" always creeps me out) but there's also the aggressive self-promotion and cruelty to others. The first time you meet Quinn he's openly threatening one of his inferiors. He makes a racist comment about Vette (about insults from "her Twilek mouth" or somesuch). Every time you talk to him he's either expecting a pat on the back for doing his job or he's trying to use you to promote himself. LS Jaesa, Vette and Pierce all have story lines where they are trying to help someone else or work to help the Empire. Quinn on the other hand fishes for compliments, milks you for a letter of recommendation and expects you to help carry out some personal vendetta against a moff who fired him, which involves literally kidnapping and murdering him.

So even before the Quinncident my Sith Warriors couldn't stand Quinn and wanted him off the ship.

Yeah, I've had a couple of characters (not my sage) who've treated Lana horrendously, and it seems to have no impact outside of the scenes where they do that. She acts like their creepy fan in spite of how mean they are. The issue is there with Theron too (though I don't think he seems quite so devoted). I have one particular DS agent who despises Theron purely due to the SIS thing and who never fails to take whatever option will make Theron feel the worst. (Occasionally auto-dialogue will make him say something positive to Theron, which drives me absolutely bananas; I try to just pretend it didn't happen.) This agent is a monster. Theron's fake betrayal in this case should've been 100% real. But no, apparently it was just as fabricated as all the others, bah. As you say, it's infuriating.

I agree, and I think there should actually be more of a reaction and lasting effect if the PC behaves negatively toward both of these characters. In games like Dragon Age the characters react if you are nasty to them and leave in some cases, but in SWTOR they smile and nod and forget about it two seconds later.

I can vouch for that with Theron, too. I have an extremely hard time making my PCs civil to Theron now, so the last few who have gone through SoR on both sides have been horrible to him and have picked whatever the worst dialogue options are for him. At the end on Ziost on the Republic side, one of my characters had enraged Theron so much that he literally said something like "You sanctimonious...you know what, we're done. Bye" and walked out. But sure enough, I get a "hi, it's good to see you" on Odessen.

It's a good point that if the Commander is a true despot (and I am not just talking alignment but overall actions, slaughtering civilians, withholding aid from Zakuul, etc.) the betrayal should have been real and half the Alliance based would probably be with Theron in calling for a mutiny. But no.

Personally - commenting here on the writing itself rather than the reaction to it - I see some unconscious bias of a different kind. I say this with particular regard to post-KotET returns. A lot of the missing female companions have forged their own paths as strong, independent women. It's implied that they don't need an excuse not to have rescued the PC - they were not expected to do that. By contrast, many of the male companions seem to have dedicated themselves to searching for the PC and/or suffered horrifically. There seems to be the implication that they'd need excuses for not having rescued the PC, so they're given really good excuses. (Some of those excuses I think we'd have to be genuinely terrible people not to accept.) I'm not sure exactly what commentary this presents on masculinity and femininity but it does make me feel a bit uncomfortable.

I have to agree with this, too, now that you mention it. The men in the two minute returns aren't allowed to say, "Well, yeah, I looked for you for a while, I couldn't find you, I was sad, but I moved on." It's like as men they're expected to have staged a rescue or have had a personal Armageddon that prevented it. Arcann's dialogue in his romance scene also seems to have him acting protectively toward the PC instead of just talking things over from what I have read. There is something very uncomfortable about that.

There's the excessive flattery (the line he says when he meets the Sith Warrior again on Iokath, about "looking more potent than ever" always creeps me out) but there's also the aggressive self-promotion and cruelty to others. The first time you meet Quinn he's openly threatening one of his inferiors. He makes a racist comment about Vette (about insults from "her Twilek mouth" or somesuch). Every time you talk to him he's either expecting a pat on the back for doing his job or he's trying to use you to promote himself. LS Jaesa, Vette and Pierce all have story lines where they are trying to help someone else or work to help the Empire. Quinn on the other hand fishes for compliments, milks you for a letter of recommendation and expects you to help carry out some personal vendetta against a moff who fired him, which involves literally kidnapping and murdering him.

I'm not going to even try to change your mind about Quinn, but your misrepresentation of him is hysterical. Quinn's history is him doing nothing but trying to save people and help the Empire. The lives he saved in service to the Empire are magnitudes greater than the others combined.

The Moff who "fired" him was trying to get Quinn executed for saving a fleet from his incompetence. That is hundreds of thousands of lives Quinn saved by sacrificing his career. His "personal vendetta" was taking the insane Moff out of commission because the man was still getting thousands upon thousands of soldiers killed, but Broysc was too politically entrenched for proper channels to take care of it. In the mean time Quinn went and apprehended a master spy that had been working for the Republic then went off and saved Major Ovech and his crew. And Quinn didn't ask for help, he asked for permission.

I'm not going to even try to change your mind about Quinn, but your misrepresentation of him is hysterical. Quinn's history is him doing nothing but trying to save people and help the Empire. The lives he saved in service to the Empire are magnitudes greater than the others combined.

.

Sorry, but it's not a misrepresentation, it's a difference of opinion. I'm a bit stunned and amused that anyone would actually consider Quinn to be some sort of selfless hero for the Empire, but you're welcome to your interpretation. I'm welcome to mine, which is that he's a character I find to be completely disgusting, cruel and self-serving in every way. Not really up for discussion on this one. It doesn't harm you or your game at all if someone else hates Quinn, and I was responding to the poster who was wondering if aversion to Quinn is due to his subservience. I was just pointing out that I personally had a ton of other reasons to hate Quinn that had nothing to do with his subservient behavior.

Also, FWIW, I do think that those of you who enjoy Quinn should be able to have him in your game. I don't think he should be bricked for those who love him any more than any other LI should be. So my hating Quinn does not mean I think you should not be able to enjoy him as much as you want.

My Sith Warrior found it very easy to forgive Quinn because she (I) believed that Quinn's primary motivations were Duty and Loyalty which meant that he adhered to the military Chain of Command, and so she (and I) understood why he did what he did.

My Sith Warrior found it very easy to forgive Quinn because she (I) believed that Quinn's primary motivations were Duty and Loyalty which meant that he adhered to the military Chain of Command, and so she (and I) understood why he did what he did.

Oh, I actually get why Quinn did what he did too. He was working for Baras and there was no reason he shouldn't have. Baras was a far safer bet for his own advancement through the Empire than the Sith Warrior. It would have been a no-brainer for anyone who was as aggressively inclined toward self-advancement as Quinn: do you support the scrappy upstart Sith with a tiny power base, or do you support the Dark Council member with a ton of political connections and a huge network? Yeah.

And I've also heard the alternate interpretation of the Quinncident - which, IIRC, the writer said is one of two ways the incident can be interpreted. My Sith Warrior (and my) own feeling is that whatever Quinn's intentions were in the fight - a suicide mission, deliberate sabotage of Baras's orders, or truly standing with Baras - my Sith do not forgive that sort of action. Quinn threatened her and hurt one of the other crew members (since he zaps whoever comes with you to the fight), so that was it. My Sith would never extend any trust to him or allow him back on the ship. In my headcanon Quinn is kicked off the ship at that point and sent back to Baras.

I was explaining why I, personally, am not too bothered by Andronikous not knowing who ran the Alliance. I am far more forgiving of something that was most likely an oversight by the writer, than something that was very intentional by the writer. The onus belongs on the writer, not the character in those situations.

Sure, you can feel however way you want about anything.

Maybe I want to head-canon that Luke wasn't a miserable old wreck in TLI because it was written by random chap who has never touched the franchise before, and imagine Luke as the same happy brave must-save-my-friends Luke from originals instead of whatever this old complete coward flipside Luke was.

But it doesn't make it any less canon... And we can't start analyzing the movie with our preferred version of Luke from the original source and ignore the current source...

Or all the space fighting in that movie that broke the lore mfw

Hence me being upset every time lore is bloody bollocks because we need to live with it now and have it make sense in the next addition.

Perhaps I misunderstood you. It seemed like you were trying to defend Ashara's behavior by referring to her as a teenager. If you didn't think she was a teenager then why did you keep talking about how teenage girls behave?

No you understood me correctly. Just because you cross the line of what age is concidered teenage, the mental state doesn't magically vanish when you cross that line. It'll dissolve on its own with incoming adult responsibilities, which Jedi Padawans have very little of bevause they're still fathered and ruled over by their mentor untill Knighted and your caretaker master is no longer needed. That is just how the system Jedi use to train young work, kids, teenage and young adult learners have a 24/7 caretaker no matter if they wished to have one or not, hence you don't have nearly as many responsibilities as you would as a normal citizen in the republic, because most of that responsibility you'd otherwise have falls on the Master instead.

Because, if she was an apprentice she was bound to the SI like an indentured servant. That is how the system worked! Andronikos, Lana, Theron, Arcann, Senya and Hylo were not apprentices they were compatriots, partners and allies. (Vette is another issue, I don't recall her ever being freed, only getting her collar removed.) It is not a double standard. They are completely different relationships with different sets of expectations and obligations.

Your only Partners are actually pretty much just appointed to you by Lana. Theron, Koth and Senya, and later Hylo, Oggurobb, Aygo and Sana-Rae being the only real Partners you get. And you're free to to have no obligations yourself whatsoever to these "partners", effectively making it a one-way partnership on all accounts. They follow your example because they believe you are the sole person who can end this mess and simply hoping you have enough goodwill not to destroy everything good simultaneously while ending the seriously bad stuff.

 

Andronikos and Ashara did not serve in the same capacity. They didn't have the same type of relationship. So why should they be treated the same? Andronikos was never in a subservient position. He signed on to captain your ship, more as a partner than as an employee. He was free to leave at any time.

Strange, I distinctly remember my Inq telling Andronikos that he was there to follow orders. My Inq never made him "captain of the ship". He was there to do as he was told and serve the Sith, nothing more. I also don't recall Andronikos telling my Sith he was only signing on to fly my ship and he could leave whenever he wanted..

Sorry, but it's not a misrepresentation, it's a difference of opinion. I'm a bit stunned and amused that anyone would actually consider Quinn to be some sort of selfless hero for the Empire, but you're welcome to your interpretation. I'm welcome to mine, which is that he's a character I find to be completely disgusting, cruel and self-serving in every way. Not really up for discussion on this one. It doesn't harm you or your game at all if someone else hates Quinn, and I was responding to the poster who was wondering if aversion to Quinn is due to his subservience. I was just pointing out that I personally had a ton of other reasons to hate Quinn that had nothing to do with his subservient behavior.

It is a fact that Quinn tossed aside his career to save the fleet at Drukenwell. It is a fact that Brysc attempted to court-marshal him and have him executed. It is a fact that he went and captured the spy. It is a fact that he liberated Ovech's ship and saved him and his officers. It is a fact Broysc was deranged and costing the Empire thousands of lives due to his insanity. It is a fact that he did not ask you for help but asked for permission.

How you choose to interpret his motivations are up to you, and how you choose to react to him is also up to you. But those are facts which you were misrepresenting.

No you understood me correctly. Just because you cross the line of what age is concidered teenage, the mental state doesn't magically vanish when you cross that line. It'll dissolve on its own with incoming adult responsibilities, which Jedi Padawans have very little of

This is a linguistics thing. A teenager is between 13-19. An adult who acts like a teenager is not a teenager, but is immature. By calling her a teenager I assumed you thought she was a teenager and not an immature adult.

Strange, I distinctly remember my Inq telling Andronikos that he was there to follow orders. My Inq never made him "captain of the ship". He was there to do as he was told and serve the Sith, nothing more. I also don't recall Andronikos telling my Sith he was only signing on to fly my ship and he could leave whenever he wanted..

Here are some direct quotes from when Andronkikos first joins your crew:

A: I'd like to know who I'm working with. Nothing touchy feely, just enough to know you've got my back.

I: You get my back, I'll get yours. Simple as that.

A: We see eye to eye.

To me that implies a partnership more than an employment. He says working with, not working for, and he expects the relationship to be reciprocal. That set the tone for their relationship, which I don't recall altering.

To me that implies a partnership more than an employment. He says working with, not working for, and he expects the relationship to be reciprocal. That set the tone for their relationship, which I don't recall altering.

Same here, i've always seen them more as partners in crime than superior / subordinate. Same as i see Akaavi and Risha as the smuggler's partners and not their employees.

Ashara, whether she ends up as an actual apprentice or not is taken in as the SI's apprentice in the first place. Maybe they should've made Xalek as the sole SI's apprentice and used a different older and more mature female LI for the SI that would never have had that kind of mentor / mentee relationship in the first place. Someone maybe closer to how Andronikos or Akaavi are, a woman who decided to follow the SI out of respect for them and not because she thought she had nowhere to go.

As for her return, i think it would've been better if it was in a chapter, maybe something like that : the Outlander and some of their followers are in a difficult situation, then a group of people shows up and help them, with Ashara as their leader. For a non SI she presents herself and says that they have a common ennemy and that she'd like to fight alongside the Commander, as an ally.

For a SI Outlander, she would've said that they serch for them for quite some time, but were unable to find them and that she could not go back to the Jedi or trust the Sith, but was not willing to sit still and do nothing while the Eternal Empire was rampaging the galaxy, so she searched for other people like her and they started to fight back, helping people who needed it, and that thanks to what the SI taught her she was able to take things in her hands. That she heard the SI was back and that she'd like to fight by their side once more, but as an ally, not as their follower because her people trusted her and needed her. And she would've had allies to bring to the Alliance.

This for me would've shown that she had grown from that arrogant, whinning and indecisive brat to a woman who had actual leadership experience (which is never shown or told IG) and who was not taking her responsibilities lightly. I could even have started to actually like her if she had matured this way. Here i just see no difference with how she was pre KOTFE, she's still the same as when you found her on Taris.

It is a fact that Quinn tossed aside his career to save the fleet at Drukenwell. It is a fact that Brysc attempted to court-marshal him and have him executed. It is a fact that he went and captured the spy. It is a fact that he liberated Ovech's ship and saved him and his officers. It is a fact Broysc was deranged and costing the Empire thousands of lives due to his insanity. It is a fact that he did not ask you for help but asked for permission.

 

How you choose to interpret his motivations are up to you, and how you choose to react to him is also up to you. But those are facts which you were misrepresenting.

It's your opinion. I actually never said that Quinn didn't do those things. I said that he was motivated by his own self-promotion and was using the Sith Warrior, and I'm entitled to that opinion as much as you are entitled to like him.

Yeah., Broysc is deranged, but Quinn doesn't seem to care much about other Imperials that cost a lot of lives. He has no issue going along with Baras's actions that kill a lot of Imperials and even endanger the Empire's mission on Corellia by diverting the troops to Hoth. Or, you know, commandeering an Imperial ship and getting everyone on that ship killed in the process of the Quinncident. Yes, Quinn takes down a spy and carries out a few rescue missions, but HIS JOB is to protect the Empire, and he seems to want a gold star and a trophy every time he does anything.

And Quinn gets the Sith Warrior involved as an accomplice with that holocall and kidnapping Broysc and bringing him to the ship. That's not just asking for permission, and of course it nicely covers his butt. If there were any repercussions from Broysc's kidnapping and murder, where was he seen last? On the SW's ship, so they would have been implicated and punished for it.

But yeah, he's just a fluffy kitten who would never hurt a soul or do anything cruel or self-serving, and the entire Sith Warrior crew hates him for nothing. Anyway, yeah, we get it, you like Quinn, I don't, we're both entitled to our opinions. You're welcome to respond and have the last word if you like, but I'm not going to respond to Quinn stuff again. As I said I did not support Quinn getting bricked any more than any other LI.

As for her return, i think it would've been better if it was in a chapter, maybe something like that : the Outlander and some of their followers are in a difficult situation, then a group of people shows up and help them, with Ashara as their leader. For a non SI she presents herself and says that they have a common ennemy and that she'd like to fight alongside the Commander, as an ally.

For a SI Outlander, she would've said that they serch for them for quite some time, but were unable to find them and that she could not go back to the Jedi or trust the Sith, but was not willing to sit still and do nothing while the Eternal Empire was rampaging the galaxy, so she searched for other people like her and they started to fight back, helping people who needed it, and that thanks to what the SI taught her she was able to take things in her hands. That she heard the SI was back and that she'd like to fight by their side once more, but as an ally, not as their follower because her people trusted her and needed her. And she would've had allies to bring to the Alliance.

 

This for me would've shown that she had grown from that arrogant, whinning and indecisive brat to a woman who had actual leadership experience (which is never shown or told IG) and who was not taking her responsibilities lightly. I could even have started to actually like her if she had matured this way. Here i just see no difference with how she was pre KOTFE, she's still the same as when you found her on Taris.

It's a pity they didn't incorporate her into the Voss chapter for this reason. IIRC Theron says that the Alliance received a tip that Senya and Arcann were on Voss. The informant was anonymous and they were never found in KOTET. It would have been nice if the informant had turned out to be Ashara, and she'd led a group of other expats. There's precedent for outsiders for becoming mystics - there's a human in the smuggler story who becomes one - so Ashara could have become a mystic and maybe played a pivotal role in that chapter. That would have shown a lot of growth on her part.

Or they could have had her as the escort in the Voss Star Fortress chapter. If you were playing a SI you could have had the option to take her back without completing the veteran SF. I always thought it would have been nicer to slot actual companions we knew into those SF missions instead of coming up with six new random ones that didn't mean anything to us. Vector on Alderaan, Mako or Zenith on Nar Shaddaa; Ashara on Voss; Andronikos on Tatooine, and I'm sure there are people i'm forgetting who would have worked for Hoth and Belsavis. They could have even slotted Quinn and Elara back for those.

Master Ranos and Darth Hexid both say that Ashara is out in the galaxy DOING things, but apparently that didn't hold over to her actual return.

All of the companions who have returned from Iokath onward have really been given the short end of the stick and their returns have not served wither the PC or the companion well.

It's a pity they didn't incorporate her into the Voss chapter for this reason. IIRC Theron says that the Alliance received a tip that Senya and Arcann were on Voss. The informant was anonymous and they were never found in KOTET. It would have been nice if the informant had turned out to be Ashara, and she'd led a group of other expats. There's precedent for outsiders for becoming mystics - there's a human in the smuggler story who becomes one - so Ashara could have become a mystic and maybe played a pivotal role in that chapter. That would have shown a lot of growth on her part.

 

Or they could have had her as the escort in the Voss Star Fortress chapter. If you were playing a SI you could have had the option to take her back without completing the veteran SF. I always thought it would have been nicer to slot actual companions we knew into those SF missions instead of coming up with six new random ones that didn't mean anything to us. Vector on Alderaan, Mako or Zenith on Nar Shaddaa; Ashara on Voss; Andronikos on Tatooine, and I'm sure there are people i'm forgetting who would have worked for Hoth and Belsavis. They could have even slotted Quinn and Elara back for those.

 

Master Ranos and Darth Hexid both say that Ashara is out in the galaxy DOING things, but apparently that didn't hold over to her actual return.

 

All of the companions who have returned from Iokath onward have really been given the short end of the stick and their returns have not served wither the PC or the companion well.

Aside from her personnality that i don't like, my other problem with Ashara is that she does nothing after Taris, she could've just been a random NPC you leave on Taris it would've been the same, seems like her only purpose afterward is being the SI's girlfriend and nothing more, which make for a borring character at best (I have exactly the same issue with Rusk btw, i never really understood why he was forced on my JK's ship, ok he helped her on Hoth, but why did he have to come along afterwards ?).

Yeah they say that she was doing things but it seems pretty messy, at some points she's said to be someone who helps people, at another points she's said to be a bad person, nothing is really clear, which sucks too. And i don't remember any of them actually saying that she was some kind of leader, so her saying that she's a leader and not a follower sounds pretty empty. Had she been described as some kind of resistance leader actually doing thing to fight against Zakuul and protect whole populations, it would've shown an actual growth under the SI, i could believe her and consider her more as an equal, but not with what is given to us.

I really would've liked if at least all the LIs had returned via chapters and not AA. Jorgan's return was really good, and really made me like him more than i already did (his romance is pretty good too), the same could've been true with Ashara, she would've had an actual purpose for being there outside of just being an insipid LI.

I'm really sad about Vector too, i really liked him and his romance in the vanilla story, but his return was completely meaningless, he could've died between Ziost and now, it would've been exactly the same (the same hold true to the other AA LIs but i was not romancing any of them, so it does not affect me as much as Vector)

Aside from her personnality that i don't like, my other problem with Ashara is that she does nothing after Taris, she could've just been a random NPC you leave on Taris it would've been the same, seems like her only purpose afterward is being the SI's girlfriend and nothing more, which make for a borring character at best (I have exactly the same issue with Rusk btw, i never really understood why he was forced on my JK's ship, ok he helped her on Hoth, but why did he have to come along afterwards ?).(

I felt like the Republic was just trying to pawn Rusk off on the Jedi Knight. He was a huge liability on the battlefield that was getting everyone killed, and they couldn't figure out what else to do with him, so it turned into, "here! Go with the nice Jedi!" LOL. But yeah they don't give him anything to do until the last battle in the Jedi Knight story and it's confusing.

Had she been described as some kind of resistance leader actually doing thing to fight against Zakuul and protect whole populations, it would've shown an actual growth under the SI, i could believe her and consider her more as an equal, but not with what is given to us.

I like Ashara, so I really wish they'd actually given her that storyline.

I really would've liked if at least all the LIs had returned via chapters and not AA. Jorgan's return was really good, and really made me like him more than i already did (his romance is pretty good too), the same could've been true with Ashara, she would've had an actual purpose for being there outside of just being an insipid LI.

I'm really sad about Vector too, i really liked him and his romance in the vanilla story, but his return was completely meaningless, he could've died between Ziost and now, it would've been exactly the same (the same hold true to the other AA LIs but i was not romancing any of them, so it does not affect me as much as Vector)

Yeah, I think regardless on anyone here's feelings on any of the LIs or companions, what we all CAN agree on is that the returns after KOTFE were not done well at all. The returns in KOTFE, whether you like or dislike the companion, it shows you something about them and gives a plausible explanation for where they have been. Even the AAs are pretty good overall and some of the quests are really cute. I LOVE going treasure hunting with Talos and hearing his little asides.

These two-minute wonders? As I said before they are so awful that I'd rather have a companion not officially show up again than have those. It didn't show the companions in a good light for the most part, and even the ones that show promise, like Felix's, fall so short of the mark. Most of the returns seem to be variations of:

Companion: Oh, hi.

Commander: So where have you been?

Companion: Doing stuff. Couldn't find you. Sorry.

Commander: It's all good. I'm sure everything will be just like before. Come on back.

OR

Commander: I'm offended and I never liked you anyway. Bye.

Companion: Yay. I'll accept that.

Aside from her personnality that i don't like, my other problem with Ashara is that she does nothing after Taris, she could've just been a random NPC you leave on Taris it would've been the same, seems like her only purpose afterward is being the SI's girlfriend and nothing more, which make for a borring character at best (I have exactly the same issue with Rusk btw, i never really understood why he was forced on my JK's ship, ok he helped her on Hoth, but why did he have to come along afterwards ?).

Isn't that the case for most of the companions, though? There are some companions that are apprentices you're supposed to train and it's logical they stay with you (i.e. Nadia, Xalek, Jaesa), and some others that stay because they're part of a military structure and have their orders (i.e. Quinn, all trooper companions). Then there are some who might be staying because of the lifestyle they could not have if they were on their own (i.e. Tharan Cedrax, who joins because he misses the excitement of traveling with a jedi, or Mako, who seems to enjoy bounty hunting but doesn't want to be the one doing the fighting). The rest? Joined because they just wanted to, or are staying even though they don't have to anymore, simply because they happen to feel like staying.

I feel the purpose of different companions is that you can play different sort of PCs and still have a companion that goes well with that. Ashara works well with a very manipulative SI, and I assume my military-minded JK is going to love having Rusk around. Unfortunately the downside is that you're going to end up with companions that don't work well with your PC, too.

This is a linguistics thing. A teenager is between 13-19. An adult who acts like a teenager is not a teenager, but is immature. By calling her a teenager I assumed you thought she was a teenager and not an immature adult.

Ok. Firstly, I don't think I called her teenager per se. I said "sounds like a normal teenager", sound being mannerism/mentality. You assumed I did in the previous post, to which I replied with an acknowledgement of her age. But sure, since you tangled on this detail lets make it perfectly clear: Young adult who acts like a teenager. My point on why this could be still stands.

To me that implies a partnership more than an employment. He says working with, not working for, and he expects the relationship to be reciprocal. That set the tone for their relationship, which I don't recall altering.

Yet you can force-lightning him on Tatooine?

And get him angrily bark what a damn crazy Sith you are in return.

He also calls all Sith the sickest monsters in the galaxy.

And you get to threaten to rip his tongue out if he ever says anything like that again.

Definitely sounds like a partnership built to be equal

What it sounds to me like, is you all played a flowerhat sith with him and completely forgot about the darkside options.

He asks to get on your ship because he doesn't have one. After getting released from Sith Andronikos was running with Rix who ran the show, they had a relationship (bad one as it turned out), she basically breaks up with him before you leave Tat, and Andronikos is fine with this since he just secured himself a new spot on a new crew.

Lucky him you accept him aboard, because he would have been stranded there with no other options otherwise.

Isn't that the case for most of the companions, though? There are some companions that are apprentices you're supposed to train and it's logical they stay with you (i.e. Nadia, Xalek, Jaesa), and some others that stay because they're part of a military structure and have their orders (i.e. Quinn, all trooper companions). Then there are some who might be staying because of the lifestyle they could not have if they were on their own (i.e. Tharan Cedrax, who joins because he misses the excitement of traveling with a jedi, or Mako, who seems to enjoy bounty hunting but doesn't want to be the one doing the fighting). The rest? Joined because they just wanted to, or are staying even though they don't have to anymore, simply because they happen to feel like staying.

 

I feel the purpose of different companions is that you can play different sort of PCs and still have a companion that goes well with that. Ashara works well with a very manipulative SI, and I assume my military-minded JK is going to love having Rusk around. Unfortunately the downside is that you're going to end up with companions that don't work well with your PC, too.

Yeah it's a bit the case for most of them, but it feels like that more on some than on others. I guess it depends on their motives to join you in the first place, and how you feel about them.

My first Nox was a real DS very manipulative one, but then i felt that she was really stupid to believe evrything he said while his actions showed otherwise. I honnestly don't know how to make her work with any of my SIs, i just don't know how to handle her, as i also tried a very supportive and kind Imperious and then she just appeared as an ungrateful brat at times.

It's actually pretty sad that we can't dismiss the ones who don't work well with our own characters. Scourge and my LS JK disagree on many things but they can learn from each other so it somehow works, and he actually has a purpose for following her. Rusk, well he's here but that does not really work, i find him kinda bland, I feel quite the same about Felix, wich is sad considering he's the only romance option for a female JC (well i'm not a big fan of the JC as a character, of the JC's story and of the JC's crew as a whole, which saddens me as i still like my tiny Zabrak JC)

Yeah it's a bit the case for most of them, but it feels like that more on some than on others. I guess it depends on their motives to join you in the first place, and how you feel about them.

 

My first Nox was a real DS very manipulative one, but then i felt that she was really stupid to believe evrything he said while his actions showed otherwise. I honnestly don't know how to make her work with any of my SIs, i just don't know how to handle her, as i also tried a very supportive and kind Imperious and then she just appeared as an ungrateful brat at times.

 

It's actually pretty sad that we can't dismiss the ones who don't work well with our own characters. Scourge and my LS JK disagree on many things but they can learn from each other so it somehow works, and he actually has a purpose for following her. Rusk, well he's here but that does not really work, i find him kinda bland, I feel quite the same about Felix, wich is sad considering he's the only romance option for a female JC (well i'm not a big fan of the JC as a character, of the JC's story and of the JC's crew as a whole, which saddens me as i still like my tiny Zabrak JC)

I didn't feel Ashara was stupid, I thought she was naive and lost. She had been sheltered her whole life and had no way of understanding just how manipulative someone with the right social skills can be. In fact, now that I think about it, not having great social skills might be part of the character overall. With the jedi, she doesn't seem to get that the masters don't like it when she's showing off her combat skills, she's simply not picking up the clues. If the SI uses that and her ego to twist her into working for him/her, I don't think she's stupid for falling for that. She just doesn't get people.

But yeah, I'd also like to dismiss some of the companions. Broonmark on many of my warriors, Skadge on most of my BHs, for example.

I didn't feel Ashara was stupid, I thought she was naive and lost. She had been sheltered her whole life and had no way of understanding just how manipulative someone with the right social skills can be. In fact, now that I think about it, not having great social skills might be part of the character overall. With the jedi, she doesn't seem to get that the masters don't like it when she's showing off her combat skills, she's simply not picking up the clues. If the SI uses that and her ego to twist her into working for him/her, I don't think she's stupid for falling for that. She just doesn't get people.

 

But yeah, I'd also like to dismiss some of the companions. Broonmark on many of my warriors, Skadge on most of my BHs, for example.

That's how she came across to me too, very naive, sheltered and lost.

I still wish we'd been able to refuse one companion per class story, no strings attached. In the class stories it wouldn't have resulted in those characters being bricked for anyone else. I'd have loved to have been able to reject Doc, Quinn, Skadge and SCORPIO.

It is a fact that Quinn tossed aside his career to save the fleet at Drukenwell. It is a fact that Brysc attempted to court-marshal him and have him executed. It is a fact that he went and captured the spy. It is a fact that he liberated Ovech's ship and saved him and his officers. It is a fact Broysc was deranged and costing the Empire thousands of lives due to his insanity. It is a fact that he did not ask you for help but asked for permission.

 

How you choose to interpret his motivations are up to you, and how you choose to react to him is also up to you. But those are facts which you were misrepresenting.

 

 

 

This is a linguistics thing. A teenager is between 13-19. An adult who acts like a teenager is not a teenager, but is immature. By calling her a teenager I assumed you thought she was a teenager and not an immature adult.

 

 

 

Here are some direct quotes from when Andronkikos first joins your crew:

 

A: I'd like to know who I'm working with. Nothing touchy feely, just enough to know you've got my back.

I: You get my back, I'll get yours. Simple as that.

A: We see eye to eye.

 

To me that implies a partnership more than an employment. He says working with, not working for, and he expects the relationship to be reciprocal. That set the tone for their relationship, which I don't recall altering.

I agree with you 100% And now that I'm out of the hospital, I can say so! Those are ALL FACT about Quinn. People can try to ignore them, but that doesn't make it any less true.

I also agree with you about Ashara. She is twenty when she is first met http://swtor.wikia.com/wiki/Ashara_Zavros which makes her an immature adult. She was born in 3662 http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ashara_Zavros which makes her around 31-ish in the current time frame. She is still a fool and time hasn't changed that. She did not come looking for the PC, that's a fact. She did nothing to fight the Valkorions. That's fact. So where does she get off demanding to be the PC's equal? When she fights off Valkorion's entire family and mind battles him after he possesses her, then she can try to claim she's an equal. Until then? She's nothing but a willful brat that deserves the death option available. There should've been three--accept happily, turn her away and kill her outright or at very least, leave her for dead. I don't care how old she is, an idiot is an idiot.

As for Andronikos, I agree as well. He was never the SI's slave. He was a partner and had the right to leave whenever he chose. Ashara was an apprentice http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ashara_Zavros Darth Nox is listed as a master. Apprentices don't get to leave whenever they want. Look at Anakin. He couldn't even go visit his mother, not even once in the years he was with Obi-wan. And when he went off with Padme, he got in trouble for it from Obi-wan for not obeying. An apprentice, whether Jedi or Sith is the property of their master and has to do whatever they want. They have no freedom, except when they do missions, which are their master's bidding.