Why such the disparity in these two raids? Yes I understand there is far more 8man guilds attempting NiM EC right now so more guilds have cleared content. There is however some very top notch 16 man guilds putting everything they got into this raid also. The problem is you cannot build a raid around 8man content and then buff it up for 16 man by adding more hp's to boss, make bosses hit harder, and crucial mechanic(IE reticles) spawn that many more. It works sometimes but not every encounter. They have made 8man content to simple and buffed 16man through the roof for NiM EC...its not even remotely close in difficulty.

 

 

At this rate bioware is going to kill the few remaining 16man progression guilds off, as there is not really a point in doing the content. We can just break down into two 8man groups and farm the instances.

 

 

Also why is the most needed pieces of this tier (chest, mainhand, offhand, pants, gloves, boots) in TFB HM, and (bracers,belt, helm, ear pieces) in NiM EC??? You would think the loot would be reversed considering the difficulty level of NiM EC....or atleast spread out more (IE chest, mainhand, offhand, pants, gloves, boots split between the two instances.)

 

Discuss...

Edited November 17, 2012 by Frankt
update

Yep 16man is really tough, it would have been great to be able to test it, but whatever. My main complaint, however, is that this patch was released on a Thursday. Of course you can't schedule a patch so it matches everyone's schedule, but I would imagine that having it start on Tuesday would match more guild's timelines than Thursday. I have no doubt that we'll be able to get the remaining kills with our normal raiders, it's just difficult to get people to show up on Friday/Saturday.

 

It would be great to hear BWs thoughts on this stuff.

I slightly noticed this in past content but as more content is released I am noticing a major difference in difficulty between 16man and 8 man Operations.

 

People can argue this until their face is blue, but its apparent 16man is definitely more difficult. There are still great 16man guilds out there but no one has been able to kill the tanks just yet. Granted most have only been able to put a night of attempts in, its still the current 'progression' boss where as in 8man the entire Operation is being cleared.

16 man is way harder this round. Our guild practiced Toth and Zorn with 8 people while waiting for 8 more to log on, and it was so easy. Imagine our surprise when we didn't down the bosses in a timely manner once we had a group of 16.

 

Currently we're chewing on the Tanks and boy is it rough.I am hoping that the loot that drops in the remaining bosses reward 16 man guilds for taking on more challenging content.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Jinxblog

Currently we're chewing on the Tanks and boy is it rough.I am hoping that the loot that drops in the remaining bosses reward 16 man guilds for taking on more challenging content.

Yes you get 4 sets of bracers instead of 2 from the tanks.

Yes you get 4 sets of bracers instead of 2 from the tanks.

 

Well yeah, I know the loot is doubled, but I am hoping for something extra for 16 mans. What is to prevent 16 man guilds just breaking up into two groups of 8 mans and getting the same loot with easier mechanics? Besides bragging rights.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Jinxblog

Well yeah, I know the loot is doubled, but I am hoping for something extra for 16 mans. What is to prevent 16 man guilds just breaking up into two groups of 8 mans and getting the same loot with easier mechanics? Besides bragging rights.

 

I think the chance to get Qyzen's Kephess skin is increased, but I'm not sure.

Mostly it's just bragging rights. Heroic 25 man in WoW has always been the way people keep track of World Firsts. It's pretty much the same for SWTOR, people will clear 16 man and then start farming 8 man after they've done it once...

Edited November 18, 2012 by AshlaBoga

deleted double post Edited November 18, 2012 by Jinxblog

I think the chance to get Qyzen's Kephess skin is increased, but I'm not sure.

Mostly it's just bragging rights. Heroic 25 man in WoW has always been the way people keep track of World Firsts. It's pretty much the same for SWTOR, people will clear 16 man and then start farming 8 man after they've done it once...

 

 

Ah, I've never played WoW so SWTOR is my first raiding experience. I wish that it didn't have to be that way. I think there should be some incentive to do 16 mans regularly.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Jinxblog

I'd have to agree, our guild is doing 16 man at the moment. We killed Toth and Zorn 5 different times with different 8 mans (clear it with one set of 8, then rotate in a few) in order to practice it before all 16 logged on.

 

We spent 1 hour on 8 man Toth and Zorn before we downed them then /stuck on the handler to that we didn't lock ourselves out.

 

In total it took my 16 man ops group 8 hours to down Toth and Zorn. 16 man seems to be in the right place, it's 8 man that's under-tuned.

 

Do not want a nerf. Make 8 man harder. It's supposed to be a nightmare!

Well I will say this there was almost no 16m testing done on the PTR so they couldnt really balance it out like they did with 8m which received more testing. Perhaps if they fixed the problem where it started we would see these things balanced better. On a sidenote I think we are seeing 16m guilds decline. It seems like everyone is content just to do 8m raiding since its easier and the same gear. Perhaps if they would make the 16m Nightmare gear better than the 8m version it would motivate more guilds to try the 16 man option. My guild has yet to step foot inside Nightmare because of the day the patch came out, but I look forward to trying it out in about 18 hours.

In WoW people who beat Heroic 25 mans get a more prestigious title. If they offered different titles that might motivate some people. Instead of "the Infernal" maybe "the Infernal Nightmare" and instead of "the Unyielding" the "the Unyielding Nightmare"?

 

I really think this would work. Just change the title you get for the 16 Man 2 hr nightmare clears.

 

Update: Of course my suggestion still wouldn't encourage people to do it after they got the title, but they would have to clear Nightmare EC, TfB, and future ops a few times on 16 man before doing so in under 2hrs.

Edited November 18, 2012 by AshlaBoga

I think the question we need to ask is: Why have most of the 16 man guilds left? And what can we do to bring 16 man raiding back to being what the pinnacle of raiding should be?

I don't know why you're complaining about the dificulty. From my point of view 16man is great, it offers a real challange, while 8 man Guilds still got no new content at all.

So keep this up i like it.

If 16 man would have been as easy as 8 man is the hole patch would have been worthless. And my guild had once again no new challange ahead.

 

So 16 man stays the pinnacle of raiding in swtor. Every raider who wants a real challange has to go the 16man path.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Darel-Ghent

The problem isn't the difficulty. That's not why people are complaining. I'm really happy that there is finally something that is literally on the edge of too hard for some really quality raid groups to complete.

 

That being said, people are kind of pissed (including me) because 8m is comparatively too easy for the same rewards. 8m NiM EC is much easier than 16m. There is no debate to be had. It's not even close . It's REALLY disheartening to see 8m groups reaping the same rewards and makes you question why it's worth doing something just for "prestige".

 

There are already discussions internally within the guild of breaking down our 16m into two 8m raid groups for farming once we have beat this content for progression, and it's a shame that that's even being considered. Just a personal opinion (I don't speak for all in MoX), but Bioware is going to have to do much more balancing or provide perks for 16m raiding if they want any guilds to keep doing it. It's apparent already that there aren't many of us left.

Edited November 18, 2012 by DarkhorseForLife

The problem isn't the difficulty. That's not why people are complaining. I'm really happy that there is finally something that is literally on the edge of too hard for some really quality raid groups to complete.

 

That being said, people are kind of pissed (including me) because 8m is comparatively too easy for the same rewards. 8m NiM EC is much easier than 16m. There is no debate to be had. It's not even close . It's REALLY disheartening to see 8m groups reaping the same rewards and makes you question why it's worth doing something just for "prestige".

 

There are already discussions internally within the guild of breaking down our 16m into two 8m raid groups for farming once we have beat this content for progression, and it's a shame that that's even being considered. Just a personal opinion (I don't speak for all in MoX), but Bioware is going to have to do much more balancing or provide perks for 16m raiding if they want any guilds to keep doing it. It's apparent already that there aren't many of us left.

 

This best describes why I made this post. Thank you sir!

I am raiding for a challenge, 16man gives it - 8man doesn't.

 

HM 16man TFB wasn't that hard... And I'm glad that NiM 16man EC is literally a nightmare so far. Mad props to those guilds that are sticking with it. It's a pain in the butt, but that's the way I like it.

 

I agree that there is a disparity between the two raids but can one actually make 8man as hard or harder than a 16man group? It seems unlikely as 8 people are far more easily managed and its less strenuous on heals. I doubt this could be changed unless BioWare enforces that you ALWAYS bring one sub-par player, where their sole job is to get hit by a) red reticles (ZT), b) stand in the wrong shield (FB/SC), c) jump into red squares (CV), and d) AOE's under the purple shield (Kephess), and e) only use basic attacks. Unlikely.

 

I think additional rewards (not just increased loot) would be awesome. A different title, an extra battle rez in the fight (please BW), extra chance on the tank mount, etc.

Edited November 18, 2012 by cantoo

The problem isn't the difficulty. That's not why people are complaining. I'm really happy that there is finally something that is literally on the edge of too hard for some really quality raid groups to complete.

 

That being said, people are kind of pissed (including me) because 8m is comparatively too easy for the same rewards. 8m NiM EC is much easier than 16m. There is no debate to be had. It's not even close . It's REALLY disheartening to see 8m groups reaping the same rewards and makes you question why it's worth doing something just for "prestige".

 

There are already discussions internally within the guild of breaking down our 16m into two 8m raid groups for farming once we have beat this content for progression, and it's a shame that that's even being considered. Just a personal opinion (I don't speak for all in MoX), but Bioware is going to have to do much more balancing or provide perks for 16m raiding if they want any guilds to keep doing it. It's apparent already that there aren't many of us left.

 

I couldn't have said it better myself, being 1 of the first guilds to down T/Z NiM mode.... Our guild is one of the few left on our server doing 16 man, and you hit the nail on the head with our sentiments as well.

Ok, just cleared 2nd boss in 16 man and let me say it was an experience, and a good one at that. This is one of the first times we have had any issues other than bugs. Toth & Zorn was a great fight but in regards to difficulty nowhere near as hard as tanks. The fights themselves aren't too hard but require everyone in the team to be on their A game and no one can slack since 1 mistake can and most likely will wipe the entire raid. Looking forward to the difficulty of Kephess now

 

The only issue i have is that during the 8 hours we spent getting tries on the first and 2nd boss, 8 man guilds cleared the ENTIRE instance. Not even just the first 3 bosses, but everything. The difference in difficulty between the 2 is just unacceptable. The lack of distinction between the two in rewards just makes 16 man completely pointless other than the recognition (even on our server no one sees any difference between 16 man and 8 man) this makes me think in the same way as some of the people in MoX, what is the point of doing 16 man after you have cleared it when it is much harder and there is nothing extra to be gained?

Ok, just cleared 2nd boss in 16 man and let me say it was an experience, and a good one at that. This is one of the first times we have had any issues other than bugs. Toth & Zorn was a great fight but in regards to difficulty nowhere near as hard as tanks. The fights themselves aren't too hard but require everyone in the team to be on their A game and no one can slack since 1 mistake can and most likely will wipe the entire raid. Looking forward to the difficulty of Kephess now

 

The only issue i have is that during the 8 hours we spent getting tries on the first and 2nd boss, 8 man guilds cleared the ENTIRE instance. Not even just the first 3 bosses, but everything. The difference in difficulty between the 2 is just unacceptable. The lack of distinction between the two in rewards just makes 16 man completely pointless other than the recognition (even on our server no one sees any difference between 16 man and 8 man) this makes me think in the same way as some of the people in MoX, what is the point of doing 16 man after you have cleared it when it is much harder and there is nothing extra to be gained?

 

You ever take the time to think that the people in those 8 man raids played better as a raid group then your 16 man raid? It has already been proven that the dps checks in 16 man raids are lower then 8 man, i imagine the hps that are needed on a clean run (if alot of people taking extra damage then yes you will need more heals on 16 man) are less then what is needed on 8 man.

 

There use to be quite a few good 16 man guilds out there, but the majority of them left the game due to the easiness of it. I imagine that a great amount of what is left of 16 man guild's rosters are players that would most likely be on a B team, and not a progression.

 

There use to be quite a few good 16 man guilds out there, but the majority of them left the game due to the easiness of it. I imagine that a great amount of what is left of 16 man guild's rosters are players that would most likely be on a B team, and not a progression.

 

Speak for yourself. Our roster is nearly the same as before when we pulled out World Firsts. Granted, this time around we don't have the luxury of raiding on a weekend- one can still say that 16man is far more difficult than 8man. We are not a B team at all or close to it. Seeing guilds clear all the content in 8man while we're still putting in attempts on tanks just shows that 8man is definitely easier. Again, this is coming from a guild that had top progression in TFB. I am not saying 8man is extremely easy- only that it is undertuned. If you're only putting in 2-3 attempts per fight in order to do it on its hardest difficult- its undertuned.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Aerro

You ever take the time to think that the people in those 8 man raids played better as a raid group then your 16 man raid? It has already been proven that the dps checks in 16 man raids are lower then 8 man, i imagine the hps that are needed on a clean run (if alot of people taking extra damage then yes you will need more heals on 16 man) are less then what is needed on 8 man.

 

There use to be quite a few good 16 man guilds out there, but the majority of them left the game due to the easiness of it. I imagine that a great amount of what is left of 16 man guild's rosters are players that would most likely be on a B team, and not a progression.

 

Say whatever you want, but i want to see players that can clear 8 man with relative ease go into 16 man and faceroll through it. The raid team that we have has very good players and have no problem going through 8 man. It's been said by all the 16 man groups: 8 man is too easy and it can be seen in every instance.

Speak for yourself. Our roster is nearly the same as before when we pulled out World Firsts. Granted, this time around we don't have the luxury of raiding on a weekend- one can still say that 16man is far more difficult than 8man. We are not a B team at all or close to it. Seeing guilds clear all the content in 8man while we're still putting in attempts on tanks just shows that 8man is definitely easier. Again, this is coming from a guild that had top progression in TFB. I am not saying 8man is extremely easy- only that it is undertuned. If you're only putting in 2-3 attempts per fight in order to do it on its hardest difficult- its undertuned.

 

The thing is the fights are not radically different, and the new mechanics are not OMGWTF hard but do require every single member of the raid to be on point, and for the overall raid be clean with the kill. I will admit from a mathematical/statistical point of view that you're more likely to get someone messing something up when you increase the number of people in the raid, but does it really make the content harder, does it mean there need to be special awards and such for people doing 16 man? They already have lower the dps check on the fights on 16 man, to allow people to loose a bit of their uptime to adjust to more movement in the fights, what else do you want them to do?

 

On a sidenote, i dont mean to offend anyone with my posts, but every new raid we get these same damn threads about 16 man being so much harder then 8 man, and how they should be given special treatment because of it. Also if you want to look at how many 8 man guilds that are attempting NIM EC to 16 man guilds, i am sure you will find the success rate to be about right (based on the logic that more people doing something, more likely someone will do it right).

 

Say whatever you want, but i want to see players that can clear 8 man with relative ease go into 16 man and faceroll through it. The raid team that we have has very good players and have no problem going through 8 man. It's been said by all the 16 man groups: 8 man is too easy and it can be seen in every instance.

Most 8 man guilds dont have 16 "A" players, and dont want to go through the trouble of finding them in this game where it is hard enough to find 8 decent players to fill out a raid. To be honest i almost joined a 16 man guild a few weeks ago, but i decided not to, because i would've ended up switching roles, and i didnt like the idea of me having to trust the ability of 15 other players in a game that is very casual.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Chaqen

Say whatever you want, but i want to see players that can clear 8 man with relative ease go into 16 man and faceroll through it. The raid team that we have has very good players and have no problem going through 8 man. It's been said by all the 16 man groups: 8 man is too easy and it can be seen in every instance.

 

Has it ever occured to you, that some ppl have been playing together since release or even longer and they have no desire to do 16 man ops? ... Seriously i just can't understand where is this elitism coming from. You all are acting like "BUT YOU ONLY KILLED XYZ BOSS ON 8M, YOU MUST BE COMPLETE NOOBS, 16M IS WHAT THE REAL MEN DO!"

 

To quote a recent movie "No matter how big a splash you make in this world whether you're Corey Feldman, Frankie Muniz, Justin Bieber or a butthurt 16 man guild eventually nobody gives a ****."

Edited November 18, 2012 by Lareky

I agree that 16-man is certainly harder in some cases (although the same can be said of 8-man, perhaps less often).

 

Honestly, though, I feel a lot more of it is due to player skill than most guilds would realise or accept. It's phenomenally difficult to field 8 good players, and I'm yet to even encounter a raid group with more than two or three exceptional players. I would be genuinely surprised if 16man groups were fielding all above-average raiders.

 

It's not my intention to be offensive, but the stark reality is that the numbers of players who are genuinely good in this game is a much smaller number than those who think they are good.