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Stealth has been made a liability.


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If you do not play a stealth class or play one and wonder why you are randomly taken out of stealth often in group content - this is why: Certain enemies in the game have been given the ability to detect and unstealth stealth classes from a long distance away, putting them in combat at the same time. This is usually restricted to bosses but random enemies in the landscape will have this ability as well.

 

I do not have an issue with enemies being able to detect stealth, after all that is a design decision and it is up to you. I do however have an issue with this mechanic's current implementation.

 

As it is right now these enemies detect stealth from VERY far away. I can be stealthed and walking around then suddenly the big targeting lazer appears on my character and I honestly do not know where the enemy is they are so far away. In an area with many enemies who all have this ability (like the main questline area on Ilum) stealth is impossible. I will be detected immediately and have the entire zone aggro on me. That is clearly not going to work in the long run.

 

As a class that relies a lot on stealth-openers, it is very irritating that I am completely unable to use these on bosses. This is due to bosses detecting and unstealthing stealth classes while simultaneously putting them in combat from a long distance away even if they are not targeting the stealth class. You cannot stealth while in combat, so you have to beat the tank to the boss; yet currently this is impossible as you will be unstealthed before you get to him even if the tank hits him.

 

I also feel like my group is at risk simply becuase I am there. Like Luke on the shuttle to Endor I am "endangering the mission" becuase these enemies can see a stealth class from a mile away and will aggro when the group is perhaps not ready for them.

 

Please let me use stealth openers on bosses, please let me get into proper positions, and please take a look at this mechanic. I love my class and would like to use it to its fullest with my guild.

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We saw this same issue with a jedi consular in our group running Hammer Station. He was in stealth mode and standing next to all of us and there was no aggro. Suddenly, his stealth broke and the mobs down the hall aggro and jump us. He never moved, just that stealth popped. This happened 2 more times before we figured out what it was and told him to not stealth. Then everything was fine, no aggro even standing in the same spot.
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all True. I'm having the same issue on my Operative. Like you said...the Jedi Champs on Illum can spot stealth from further away then they aggro you unstealthed....its rediculous.

 

Also, the the mobs in the Prison heroic on Corellia were popping my stealth from extreme distances...

 

And lastly....and I'm least worried about this...but another instance was the First Droid Boss on HM Black Talon. Tank was about 5 meters in front of me unstealthed obviously...and I was stealthed behind him. Boss pops my stealth and puts us all in combat.

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I totally understand the concerns you guys bring up, I play a dps operative for my guild, but this issue really isn't that bad. You have to make your group aware your class has a huge burst dps opening if you can start from stealth. The way we do this is I stand stealth in the back of the room well out of the range of the bosses ability to see through stealth which is about 30m from what I've noticed. Our tank then engages the boss first and then I run in, I am still stealthed and out of combat at this point where I can run safely behind the boss and start my dps rotation.

 

Also if you see that big target on you while you're stealthed you have about 5 seconds to pop out of stealth and nothing will aggro as long as you break stealth. The key is getting a good hang on the range each boss can see you from and staying out of that range until the tank pulls or you start the encounter.

 

I have completed all the raid content in the game with my guild so far and have had no issues starting on any of the bosses from stealth, including fights like the infernal council or ancient pylons in the eternity vault. So it can be done, you just can't be in position before the fight starts, this does two things though, allows the tank to establish aggro and for you to pop your relics at the start and get a huge burst damage at the start of a fight which makes up for the time lost running up to the boss.

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The fact is, if you're in stealth you can actually aggro the boss earlier than other people out of stealth, even if you're standing at the same distance.

 

I could be 5 feet behind you and aggro the boss before you if I was in stealth.

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The fact is, if you're in stealth you can actually aggro the boss earlier than other people out of stealth, even if you're standing at the same distance.

 

I could be 5 feet behind you and aggro the boss before you if I was in stealth.

 

 

Yes you do, this is why you have to stand farther back before combat in stealth, you have to be aprox. 15m away from your group if your group is 15m from the boss. If you do see the target for whatever reason you are too close so pop out of stealth, you won't aggro, run back farther and restealth and you should be fine.

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I totally understand the concerns you guys bring up, I play a dps operative for my guild, but this issue really isn't that bad. You have to make your group aware your class has a huge burst dps opening if you can start from stealth. The way we do this is I stand stealth in the back of the room well out of the range of the bosses ability to see through stealth which is about 30m from what I've noticed. Our tank then engages the boss first and then I run in, I am still stealthed and out of combat at this point where I can run safely behind the boss and start my dps rotation.

 

Also if you see that big target on you while you're stealthed you have about 5 seconds to pop out of stealth and nothing will aggro as long as you break stealth. The key is getting a good hang on the range each boss can see you from and staying out of that range until the tank pulls or you start the encounter.

 

I have completed all the raid content in the game with my guild so far and have had no issues starting on any of the bosses from stealth, including fights like the infernal council or ancient pylons in the eternity vault. So it can be done, you just can't be in position before the fight starts, this does two things though, allows the tank to establish aggro and for you to pop your relics at the start and get a huge burst damage at the start of a fight which makes up for the time lost running up to the boss.

 

I understand that there are workarounds as i use them myself, but I do not think it is intended or necessary for stealth classes to have to tiptoe around the content like this.

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The problem for me isn't so much that bosses can put knock you out of stealth and put you in combat. That mechanic is fine as far as I'm concerned.

 

The problem is the exceedingly large range the mechanic has. I was running heroic battle for Ilum today, and the boss was detecting me in stealth before it was detecting my party members, who were standing literally right next to me. That's a serious problem, especially if, as has been pointed out, your class relies on a stealth opener.

 

This mechanic essentially forces you to delay your damage in the hopes of being able to run up from a far distance while slowed by stealth, just to get your opener. You just have to pray the boss doesn't have any aoe or target abilities, since I found out the hard way that most bosses can target you, even if you're in stealth, when the encounter begins. I think the mechanic should detect people, and should knock them out of stealth. However, I think the range should be toned down significantly. Maybe a compromise can be that the range is reduced, by the ability knocks you out of stealth faster than it does now (atm, it seems to take 8+ seconds to actually remove you from stealth).

Edited by RoyalAlkesh
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The problem for me isn't so much that bosses can put knock you out of stealth and put you in combat. That mechanic is fine as far as I'm concerned.

 

The problem is the exceedingly large range the mechanic has. I was running heroic battle for Ilum today, and the boss was detecting me in stealth before it was detecting my party members, who were standing literally right next to me. That's a serious problem, especially if, as has been pointed out, your class relies on a stealth opener.

 

This mechanic essentially forces you to delay your damage in the hopes of being able to run up from a far distance while slowed by stealth, just to get your opener. You just have to pray the boss doesn't have any aoe or target abilities, since I found out the hard way that most bosses can target you, even if you're in stealth, when the encounter begins. I think the mechanic should detect people, and should knock them out of stealth. However, I think the range should be toned down significantly. Maybe a compromise can be that the range is reduced, by the ability knocks you out of stealth faster than it does now (atm, it seems to take 8+ seconds to actually remove you from stealth).

 

I don't see a problem with this mechanic because it allows your tank to establish aggro without you pulling from your huge burst damage. With my current gear I'm opening with like 5-6K crits on all boss mobs in EV atm. There have been moments where I've been able to get close enough to do my stealth opening as the tank pulls and I almost always pull aggro off the tank from the huge burst.

 

So even though I take much longer to get in combat I don't really lose any dps from the huge burst capability my class has. We also have talents which greatly increase our speed while stealthed which really helps getting into combat faster from running up from the back of the room.

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This is quite annoying. It makes stealth classes crap in certain content. Specially when you gain certain abilities when you come out of stealth on a target, like higher force regen for a few seconds and etc. And having the ability to aggro mobs/bosses when your 20 ft behind everyone else and them not ready is bull. A raid stealther is not going to be seen much.
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Yes you do, this is why you have to stand farther back before combat in stealth, you have to be aprox. 15m away from your group if your group is 15m from the boss. If you do see the target for whatever reason you are too close so pop out of stealth, you won't aggro, run back farther and restealth and you should be fine.

 

Having to do this, negates the idea of STEALTH.

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Not to mention that this doesn't make any sense from a practical or logical standpoint:

 

"Hey, you over there! I see you trying to hide from me...you're right behind that other group of people there! What? No, they're just going about their business. YOU'RE the droid I'm looking for!"

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I mean I have no problem with stealth detection on mobs or bosses. So I can't get any closer to the boss/mob than anyone else, big deal I can't go tickle his chin and run away giggling. I get that. But the fact that he can magically see my invisible *** Past the large group of dudes intent on murdering him seems a little excessive. And as far as it being a mechanic to keep bursty stealth classes from pulling aggro, that's what tanks are for, to shout at us dps :)
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Not to mention that this doesn't make any sense from a practical or logical standpoint:

 

"Hey, you over there! I see you trying to hide from me...you're right behind that other group of people there! What? No, they're just going about their business. YOU'RE the droid I'm looking for!"

 

Exactly why this is such a big issue to me.

 

Stealth is supposed to be an advantage, not put us at a disadvantage for using one of our abilities. I have no problem with bosses detecting stealth, but I do have a problem when it often results in a wipe because the boss saw me even though I was further from the boss than the rest of my party.

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I don't see a problem with this mechanic because it allows your tank to establish aggro without you pulling from your huge burst damage. With my current gear I'm opening with like 5-6K crits on all boss mobs in EV atm. There have been moments where I've been able to get close enough to do my stealth opening as the tank pulls and I almost always pull aggro off the tank from the huge burst.

 

Because if the tank is competent, and I properly balance my cooldowns (for example, countermeasures?), that isn't a problem. And what about Assassins? It's my experience that they have less burst than Operatives do - what's your reasoning there?

 

Even if you were right, it would still be sloppy design by Bioware. Instead of artificially punishing all stealth classes, maybe they should consider fixing the burst threat problem?

 

So even though I take much longer to get in combat I don't really lose any dps from the huge burst capability my class has. We also have talents which greatly increase our speed while stealthed which really helps getting into combat faster from running up from the back of the room.

 

 

Yes, you do lose DPS. Every second you're not attacking is lost DPS. Even with the speed increase talents, Operatives are still the slowest class to get into melee already. Every other melee class has an effective gap closer - whether it be a charge, or a sprint. Stealth is supposed to be our's. Instead, we have to blow two points in a t5 talent, and blow our vanish in order to get a boost that is still slower than every other class and, because of the way stealth detection is currently set up, we have to start from further back than any other class? That's poor design, and it needs to be changed.

Edited by RoyalAlkesh
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I just finished a guild run of Eternity Vault and we cleared all the way to Soa.

 

NONE of the bosses or enemies in there can see through stealth like the ones in flashpoints and quest areas can. It boggles my mind why the discrepancy exists and it only seems to support the idea that this was a last minute addition that has not been tested well.

 

Well now you have the feedback! Please fix this!

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  • 2 months later...
Yes you do, this is why you have to stand farther back before combat in stealth, you have to be aprox. 15m away from your group if your group is 15m from the boss. If you do see the target for whatever reason you are too close so pop out of stealth, you won't aggro, run back farther and restealth and you should be fine.

 

Wait, so if we're stealth, we're supposed to stand further away? Does that not completely invalidate the reason for being stealthed?

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I don't see a problem with this mechanic because it allows your tank to establish aggro without you pulling from your huge burst damage. With my current gear I'm opening with like 5-6K crits on all boss mobs in EV atm. There have been moments where I've been able to get close enough to do my stealth opening as the tank pulls and I almost always pull aggro off the tank from the huge burst.

 

So even though I take much longer to get in combat I don't really lose any dps from the huge burst capability my class has. We also have talents which greatly increase our speed while stealthed which really helps getting into combat faster from running up from the back of the room.

 

This might not be a game-breaking problem for you, but for others it's game-breaking. There's simply no reason for a mob to be able to put a group into combat simply because their ability to detect stealth is longer than their aggro range. If their aggro range is a certain distance, their ability to detect stealth shouldn't exceed that range meaning if a mob is beyond the distance they would aggro to a character, they shouldn't be able to pull them out of stealth, either.

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  • 9 months later...

This is by far the worst mechanic I have run into during my time in MMO's. It's broken, it's unfair, it's downright stupid. These stealth detection abilities NPC's have need to be removed or fixed (i.e. range reduced).

 

I thought the developers were desperate for people to subscribe to the game, silly game design decisions like this only drive people away.

 

Very aggravating.

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I think the bigger issue here and your avoiding it is that it stops you from getting past some bosses without having to do them. Look I get it you dont wana have to do every boss is every mission some people do. I personaly dont care but be honest with us and yourself. You issue is that you are pullig bosses you try and sneak past while members of the group are able to get past without being stealthed. It sucks. But dont try and say its anything other then what it really is.
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I think the bigger issue here and your avoiding it is that it stops you from getting past some bosses without having to do them. Look I get it you dont wana have to do every boss is every mission some people do. I personaly dont care but be honest with us and yourself. You issue is that you are pullig bosses you try and sneak past while members of the group are able to get past without being stealthed. It sucks. But dont try and say its anything other then what it really is.

 

The problem isn't that we can't stealth past and avoid bosses, i have no problem with mechanics stopping that, it's that some mobs can see stealthers that are farther away than their agro range. For burst stealthers like operatives, that makes a huge problem because they have to stay much farther away from the boss then the rest of the group, and when adding in the fact that they don't have any quick gap closer, they lose a lot of dps, or they can start out of stealth and then they can't get their opening burst.

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I think the bigger issue here and your avoiding it is that it stops you from getting past some bosses without having to do them. Look I get it you dont wana have to do every boss is every mission some people do. I personaly dont care but be honest with us and yourself. You issue is that you are pullig bosses you try and sneak past while members of the group are able to get past without being stealthed. It sucks. But dont try and say its anything other then what it really is.

 

Every genuine stealth class has the ability to bypass bosses without ever having to use their primary stealth ability, as long as the mechanics of the instance support it. All we need is Force Cloak and its equivalent. In some instances, such as Maelstrom Prison, that will get you all the way to the final boss. In others, like False Emperor, it won't, as you are required to kill one boss or you eventually get blocked by a door.

 

In the current game, the mechanic serves no purpose but to annoy. I only ever notice the mechanic when I'm in a group (I seem to always forget about it until I get the red marker on me), and I'm never in a group comprised only of stealthers. And if I was, and we wanted to get by what little content can't also be bypassed by non-stealthers, we could all simply walk by the boss and use our cooldown to leave combat.

 

If BioWare wants to prevent players from skipping bosses, they simply need to implement mechanics in each flashpoint that require you to kill a boss, as they did in False Emperor. It never ceases to amaze me that they didn't.

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