I just don't see what the big deal is.

Because.

See- no matter how you slice it or try to justify the simple truth remains that there are just some harms that can never and will never be "healed." There are just some things that will mess someone up beyond all recognition for all time and it does not matter why that harm was done- it is done and that is the full extent of it.

Needless to say that, understanding that molestation is, flat-out, one of those things means that those of us that are actually Light in RL means that sometimes, every once in a while means that we have to actually stop and think when it comes to romantic entanglements ("sex") because, I don't know about you but I sooooo do not want to be the person who does that to anyone!!!!

And. That would be the "Big Deal."

Because.

 

See- no matter how you slice it or try to justify the simple truth remains that there are just some harms that can never and will never be "healed." There are just some things that will mess someone up beyond all recognition for all time and it does not matter why that harm was done- it is done and that is the full extent of it.

 

Needless to say that, understanding that molestation is, flat-out, one of those things means that those of us that are actually Light in RL means that sometimes, every once in a while means that we have to actually stop and think when it comes to romantic entanglements ("sex") because, I don't know about you but I sooooo do not want to be the person who does that to anyone!!!!

 

And. That would be the "Big Deal."

Again, it makes no sense to me how consensual romantic relations between adults can in any way be interpreted as "molestation". No slicing there, and no deal bigger than what is made of it.

Because.

 

See- no matter how you slice it or try to justify the simple truth remains that there are just some harms that can never and will never be "healed." There are just some things that will mess someone up beyond all recognition for all time and it does not matter why that harm was done- it is done and that is the full extent of it.

 

Needless to say that, understanding that molestation is, flat-out, one of those things means that those of us that are actually Light in RL means that sometimes, every once in a while means that we have to actually stop and think when it comes to romantic entanglements ("sex") because, I don't know about you but I sooooo do not want to be the person who does that to anyone!!!!

 

And. That would be the "Big Deal."

I'd say it's rather simple...

Can the person go to war without hearing the phrase "You're to young to enlist as a soldier!"

10 year old Chiss can! Pretty sure a 50 year old Elf can too, as while they're considered teens, I think when off in the real world, they're basically considered adults, but then I think Elves just have lots of different takes on them, so I could be wrong.

Face it, generally, you don't allow such minor children to get involved in war, unless of course, it's Naruto.

Pederastry in ancient greece had to do with what (at the time) was a socially accepted means of mentorship between an adult male and a pre-adult male. I don't see what this has to do with ancient gods conceiving children with relatively MUCH younger human adults of the opposite gender.

 

Not sure I want to fathom the mind that outputs pederastry from an input of demigods.

Not sure what that last line is supposed to mean... An insult?

Look up Zeus and Ganymede. Zeus and pedarastry were connected, and it was used as a religious justification for the mentorship system you just mentioned.

You used Zeus as an example of age differences between gods and mortals in mythology getting a brush off, and I mentioned a true fact that Zeus is a really bad example for your argument. These stories emphasize the age differences - though they present them as an ideal, in opposition to our modern value systems.

So far the conversation has been about age differences in romantic relationships in general, and not specifically about conception with very young humans - I'm not even sure where that came from, or why you would think my counter-argument against the Zeus example is outside the scope of the discussion.

In any case there is no reason to make whatever personal allegation that was that you added at the end. However, if you don't want to fathom my point of view, that is fine and understandable, as I'm not sure I want to understand what you're accusing me of. I will again leave it at that.

Again, it makes no sense to me how consensual romantic relations between adults can in any way be interpreted as "molestation". No slicing there, and no deal bigger than what is made of it.

Yes. It is between two adults. If you have been reading my previous posts, you would know that I agree that it is.

However.

I can also understand that some people are just so creeped by the the thought of it not being between adults- even in the hypothetical that they just would not or could not accept that 10 year old Chiss as being an adult to them. Call it erring on the side of caution to the point of almost silliness- but, I still have to admit that I understand that viewpoint is coming from their adherence to decency and respect as according to our norms so, I can hardly look down on them for having that point of view.

Not sure what that last line is supposed to mean... An insult?

 

Look up Zeus and Ganymede. Zeus and pedarastry were connected, and it was used as a religious justification for the mentorship system you just mentioned.

 

You used Zeus as an example of age differences between gods and mortals in mythology getting a brush off, and I mentioned a true fact that Zeus is a really bad example for your argument. These stories emphasize the age differences - though they present them as an ideal, in opposition to our modern value systems.

 

So far the conversation has been about age differences in romantic relationships in general, and not specifically about conception with very young humans - I'm not even sure where that came from, or why you would think my counter-argument against the Zeus example is outside the scope of the discussion.

 

In any case there is no reason to make whatever personal allegation that was that you added at the end. However, if you don't want to fathom my point of view, that is fine and understandable, as I'm not sure I want to understand what you're accusing me of. I will again leave it at that.

Not wanting to fathom the mind that outputs molestation from an input of consenting relations between adults in mythology or game lore is more about not wanting to experience the kind of pain that would process the information in that way. It isn't an insult, just a general, "...*Henry* is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy over-sensitive to subject *x*, I would not like to put myself in whatever place Henry was put to make him so over-sensitive.".

Yes. It is between two adults. If you have been reading my previous posts, you would know that I agree that it is.

 

However.

 

I can also understand that some people are just so creeped by the the thought of it not being between adults- even in the hypothetical that they just would not or could not accept that 10 year old Chiss as being an adult to them. Call it erring on the side of caution to the point of almost silliness- but, I still have to admit that I understand that viewpoint is coming from their adherence to decency and respect as according to our norms so, I can hardly look down on them for having that point of view.

I can see that, and I can also understand where people are coming from. To me the broader issue is how much do we allow our sensitivity to what can potentially offend other people, affect what we say, the kinds of fiction we write, and so on. To me, the moral legitimacy of consensual romantic relations between adults is RATIONAL, and dare I say, even humanist. When enough of us fail to stand up for reason, ESPECIALLY where moral legitimacy is concerned, then we watch as those 'norms' slowly become predicated on irrational subjective prejudices. As a result, we become less humane, not more humane. The 'norms' become narrower and more arbitrary...not good stuff.

I can see that, and I can also understand where people are coming from. To me the broader issue is how much do we allow our sensitivity to what can potentially offend other people, affect what we say, the kinds of fiction we write, and so on. To me, the moral legitimacy of consensual romantic relations between adults is RATIONAL, and dare I say, even humanist. When enough of us fail to stand up for reason, ESPECIALLY where moral legitimacy is concerned, then we watch as those 'norms' slowly become predicated on irrational subjective prejudices. As a result, we become less humane, not more humane. The 'norms' become narrower and more arbitrary...not good stuff.

Exactly. If people don't like the subject they can not play the game or walk away from the discussion.

To me, SWTOR simply isn't the place for having an in-game family.

The game's style imho simply doesn't support it.

Especially when you beliieve that children should grow up in an silent read : enemy-free area, at least to some extend. Violence-free.

Because I don't believe that an completely enemy-free area will ever come to SWTOR. The whole genre is currently overfilled with hack & slay games.

To me, SWTOR simply isn't the place for having an in-game family.

The game's style imho simply doesn't support it.

Especially when you beliieve that children should grow up in an silent read : enemy-free area, at least to some extend. Violence-free.

Because I don't believe that an completely enemy-free area will ever come to SWTOR. The whole genre is currently overfilled with hack & slay games.

Yes, because no one ever has families in war ravaged areas.

"My kid is going to be born with a blaster in one hand and credits in the other"

My gunslinger has already thought this through. I would enjoy seeing the personal storylines expanded upon in the game. I think kids would be an interesting option even if they are just little NPC children (Like Fable). But I don't see it happening.

To me,, "having a family" in a game like this is more about continuing story-lines and so on. Ideally, after I beat the game with character #1 and marry my favorite comp, it would be cool to have a cinematic showing the birth/adoption of the kid(s), a little highlight reel of the kid growing up/parents growing older together,, and then you get pick the class and play the game again as the kid. But unless they come up with brand new content and advance the entire universe along, there are a bunch of continuity issues.

The only game I have played that is anything like that is Highergrounds (a re-engineered version of the neverwinter nights mmo) where you can take a portion of the xp from toon #1, retire that toon (as in agree to never play it again) and put the xp into a new toon that you've reincarnated into. But that game has the continuity issues solved and more end game content than any game I've seen yet (at least 50% of the content is level 60-80,, 80 being the final highest level). So people would commonly "reincarnate" their character at level 60.

Unfortunately, I don't ever see anything like that happening with swtor.

I can see that, and I can also understand where people are coming from. To me the broader issue is how much do we allow our sensitivity to what can potentially offend other people, affect what we say, the kinds of fiction we write, and so on. To me, the moral legitimacy of consensual romantic relations between adults is RATIONAL, and dare I say, even humanist. When enough of us fail to stand up for reason, ESPECIALLY where moral legitimacy is concerned, then we watch as those 'norms' slowly become predicated on irrational subjective prejudices. As a result, we become less humane, not more humane. The 'norms' become narrower and more arbitrary...not good stuff.

Oh, I'm not some alarmist saying OMG THERE SHOULD BE LAWS, I'm just talking.

Really, EVERY kind of relationship between adults at similar ages of any gender combination is just as disturbing as wildly different ages and etc. I don't try to understand any of it - hormonal intoxication leads to questionable choices then loss of control then weird unhygienic fluid swapping ritual then in certain cases H.R. Giger spawn growing in an abdomen then a horror moment or hours of blood and screaming. Then result feeds on more body fluid for about a year before becoming something that approximately resembles a person.

...Yeah, um, circle of life. Yaaaaaay. /deadpan

Mostly I'm trying to reason out why some of these relationships seem to be more screwed up and objectionable than others, and my best guess is an even playing field hypothesis.

"My kid is going to be born with a blaster in one hand and credits in the other"

My gunslinger has already thought this through. I would enjoy seeing the personal storylines expanded upon in the game. I think kids would be an interesting option even if they are just little NPC children (Like Fable). But I don't see it happening.

Personally I kind of think they're going to have a story arc where by some accident or cruel plot either you or your romantic partner is made sterile or you have to give up a kid right after you give birth to it. That would fit into the general SWTOR plot lines nicely I think.

But yes, kids I think are never going to happen. I think the writers just tossed that last convo in there for people who might like that discussion. Not that I didn't, but it confuses me a bit.

Although it would be really neat to see how the spouses react to loosing a child/giving it up/never being able to have one.

Personally I kind of think they're going to have a story arc where by some accident or cruel plot either you or your romantic partner is made sterile or you have to give up a kid right after you give birth to it. That would fit into the general SWTOR plot lines nicely I think.

You're so mean!

I can see that, and I can also understand where people are coming from. To me the broader issue is how much do we allow our sensitivity to what can potentially offend other people, affect what we say, the kinds of fiction we write, and so on. To me, the moral legitimacy of consensual romantic relations between adults is RATIONAL, and dare I say, even humanist. When enough of us fail to stand up for reason, ESPECIALLY where moral legitimacy is concerned, then we watch as those 'norms' slowly become predicated on irrational subjective prejudices. As a result, we become less humane, not more humane. The 'norms' become narrower and more arbitrary...not good stuff.

First off, if it seems like I'm apologizing on the behalf of flat-out ignorance then, I'm sorry because I wasn't. That being said, I do think that knowing where a prejudice is coming from is the first step towards getting past it.

Now. That said, you are correct that relationships between two consenting adults is rational and the responses that regulate the Chiss to childhood status are indeed an ignorant response- I also don't think that it's on the same level as people not understanding the Vector's remark about wanting to rub arms is really just his Killik's way of trying to tell the female agent: "Um. You are really, really hot" for example.

When it comes to Vector's remarks, I think that it's just a failure on the part of people to look past their own responses of bafflement and/or distaste to what is behind his comment.

When it comes to the Chiss though, it's not just that people aren't looking past their own species norms, you are also asking them to look past what is to many of our cultures a nuclear-grade outright taboo and that, I think does make a difference in how fast, how easily and ultimately, how well people are going to be able to look past their own norms in order to accept the Chiss's (Force knows it certainly took me a moment!).

Anyway, point is that taboos, as you know are a slightly different thing than just simple distaste and that, i think should be recognized.

Should it be apologized for? No. But I also don't think that it's quite the same as the Imperial point of view when it comes to non-Human species either.

And, completely off the point but back onto the original purpose of this thread: I don't think that Vector would take the little kiddies straight to the hive simply because this is the idealistically crazy SOB that went out to purposefully join so, I think he would most likely give the kids a chance to pick whether or not they wanted to when they got to be adults. I do wonder whether or not he would be any good at hiding his disappointment when they all said "No" to the hive though.

You're so mean!

I am not sure how this is mean.

They're probably not going to do either option with kids or personal tragedy, the gameplay and game engine aren't really suited for simulating NPC childcare or day to day life. But they can't toss it either because of the family tree legacy thing.

I am not sure how this is mean.

 

They're probably not going to do either option with kids or personal tragedy, the gameplay and game engine aren't really suited for simulating NPC childcare or day to day life. But they can't toss it either because of the family tree legacy thing.

Maybe they won't do the tragedy route, but I almost wish they would. The chances of the characters actually having children in-game is nil, I would say, and considering how the main storylines (not counting Makeb or any other new planets) is about two years, any new expansion would just make the likely hood of them having kids even less, especially if they're Chapter expansions and could be as long as a year in-game. All the companions, whether they're romancable or not, promise to keeping your legacy alive, but some of the classes don't even have that option because they don't have apprentices/padowans.

And also, has anyone else noticed the useless escape pods in their ships? I kind of hope they have an expansion where your ship is destroyed and you're separated from your crew and you have to go find them all. That would be fun I think. But they have to have something in mind that would warrant an escape pod, or they wouldn't have one you could click on and stuff anyway.

I wonder why none of the ships seem to have any refreshers/waste disposal units. Do... Do they use those crates, then toss them out the airlock?

But yeah, splitting up companions could be interesting from a storytelling perspective, as currently all class stories are very player character focused. More depth to companions would not go amiss -making them characters independent from the player character.

Oh, I'm not some alarmist saying OMG THERE SHOULD BE LAWS, I'm just talking.

 

Really, EVERY kind of relationship between adults at similar ages of any gender combination is just as disturbing as wildly different ages and etc. I don't try to understand any of it - hormonal intoxication leads to questionable choices then loss of control then weird unhygienic fluid swapping ritual then in certain cases H.R. Giger spawn growing in an abdomen then a horror moment or hours of blood and screaming. Then result feeds on more body fluid for about a year before becoming something that approximately resembles a person.

 

...Yeah, um, circle of life. Yaaaaaay. /deadpan

 

Mostly I'm trying to reason out why some of these relationships seem to be more screwed up and objectionable than others, and my best guess is an even playing field hypothesis.

I think a lot of it has to do with personal preferences and tastes which are normally shaped by social preferences and tastes. The common thread of disturbing and taboo is interesting to me. Something can be disturbing and taboo and yet a morally legitimate subject of personal exploration. Then there are thing which are not morally legitimate subjects of exploration, which to me, go beyond the taboo and into actual violations of another person or people. The line between the two is something I believe to be very important to identify, especially on a wide social scale.

Something can be disturbing and taboo and yet a morally legitimate subject of personal exploration.

Yes. I think this is why once I divorce myself from the BLURGH emotional reaction, I am able to talk about various possibilities without feeling any particular moral/ethical judgment at the idea that people on this board might be engaging in such interactions. Logically I know that no one here is evil or immoral on the basis of this conversation.

I wonder why none of the ships seem to have any refreshers/waste disposal units. Do... Do they use those crates, then toss them out the airlock?

Congratulations. You successfully caused me to laugh so hard water came out of my nose. I know that's probably TMI, but it had to be said. The resulting images were just too hilarious.

Yes. I think this is why once I divorce myself from the BLURGH emotional reaction, I am able to talk about various possibilities without feeling any particular moral/ethical judgment at the idea that people on this board might be engaging in such interactions. Logically I know that no one here is evil or immoral on the basis of this conversation.

Just to give an idea of the type of thing I am talking about: Homosexuality was once thought to be taboo, but generally not invasive or harmful. It was one of those things people would do under a huge amount of discretion. Discretion is a GOOD thing, especially as it ties in with cultural standards of taboo. People talk about a slippery slope, "..well if we let the gays *blah blah* than soon people will *blah blah* animals and so on..." no no NO. To me, there is a rational basis for a strong moral prejudice against something, and if I can't find one than I cease that prejudice. It doesn't mean I am not still personally revolted, but I can move it from the category of "wrong" to "just not for me". I guess thats really the point I have been trying to make. Currently, thank god, there are no sentient species that we even know of. I think the moment we come across any everyones head will simultaneously explode on a thousand different levels.

Putting the whole thing another way- what if we run across a species that "appears" sentient but they just happen to make great workers. It is a lot cheaper to put them to work on some planet many light years away (near where we found them), under one or two human overseers, than it is to ship people there to do the work. So do we entertain the notion that maybe we are "enslaving" this new species? Do we automatically assume that it is slavery? Slavery is a great example because it is not merely "taboo", but plainly wrong. Probably more useful things to think about (lol) but I really wonder as we develop as a species and a civilization if we will really try to reason things out or just do what is convenient.

LOGICAL PROGRESSION

Them: "I'm dating guy/girl!"

Okay. Don't let them steal your money, don't lose your job, don't go crazy, don't get arrested.

Them: "I just did them in the backseat of a car!"

Should you be telling me this?

Them: "I just did them in your car/on couch/kitchen table/bed!"

Yuck.

Them: *Public display of affection*

Awkward...

Them: *cheerful explicit description of experience*

Terribleness is eternal. Why will this not end?

Them: *Hands down pants*

GOING OVER THERE NOW

Them: *Removal of clothes*

GOING FASTER

Them: *Falling on top of me*

-WILD FLAILING- D:

LOGICAL PROGRESSION

 

Them: "I'm dating guy/girl!"

Okay. Don't let them steal your money, don't lose your job, don't go crazy, don't get arrested.

 

Them: "I just did them in the backseat of a car!"

Should you be telling me this?

 

Them: "I just did them in your car/on couch/kitchen table/bed!"

Yuck.

 

Them: *Public display of affection*

Awkward...

 

Them: *cheerful explicit description of experience*

Terribleness is eternal. Why will this not end?

 

Them: *Hands down pants*

GOING OVER THERE NOW

 

Them: *Removal of clothes*

GOING FASTER

 

Them: *Falling on top of me*

-WILD FLAILING- D:

okokokokokok i give, please stop lol