This topic came up in gen chat a few weeks ago and i thought that would be a fight i'd love to see. As i am unsure who would actually come out on top I'll leave that to the debate on this thread.

What i will do is merely set up the fight and let you all decide how it ends. Preferably better answers than "Vader wins".

Ok i will set up and let you fellow star wars fans decide the victor.

Darth Marr manages to manifest himself into a physical being with the power he had before he fell to Valkorion, and travels to the temples on Yavin IV. Sidious senses this emergence in the Force and decides to deal with it before he becomes a rival. So he sends Darth Vader, to observe how well his cyborg apprentice would do against a former Sith Lord.

Vader's ship lands on Yavin and he follows the trail of the dark side presence. He approaches the temple entrance and finds Darth Marr. Marr rises from his meditative position as if he was expecting Vader.

"I was positive the sith would search me out once i returned, but frankly i was hoping a "true" sith would've came, where is your Master?" Marr inquires. "My master wants you destroyed that's all you need to know", Vader responds. "And blindly following your Master is why you are in the condition you are in, look at you, more machine than man, the epitome of a failure masquerading as a Sith Lord, pathetic, i will do you a favor and end your miserable existence now"

"You have no idea who you are dealing with,sith." Vader ignites his saber.

"Oh i know all about all about you... Skywalker. A lap dog who answers his "emperor's" every command"Marr ignites his saber.

"As history recalls, you served your Emperor in your time as i do mine now, and when you defied him you were destroyed"

"Yes but unlike you I knew it was better to die with honor than live as a slave to a mad man whose manipulations are the root of all your suffering "

"It is unwise to provoke me, I will destroy you here and now"

"You will try but you will fail, like you failed to save your mother, like you failed to defeat Kenobi, and like you failed to save your beloved, but we wouldn't expect anything less from the Chosen One now would we?"

"ENOUGH!"

The duel begins with Vader already empowered by his rage, now you all decide who wins, and please be civil. Thanks

Vader no question in my mind. Vader is easily among the trio of most powerful force users ever. we've not really seen many situations where he's really been able to cut loose, but the few times Vader;s been showing doing so (seige of lothal for example) he's been shown to be genuinely terrifying in his power

Siege of Lothal, he was just toying with a group a kids. Darth Marr was a powerful Sith. Even if Vader is stronger, Marr wouldn't be intimidated and he would dish out as much as Vader could i think. I was reading up on Marr this morning and they dont really have many showings of power from him, we are just told he's incredibly powerful. Plus making it to the Dark Council in your twenties and being able keep the seat for over a decade should remark on how strong Marr was. Keep in mind Marr was skilled in Force Lightning as well, and we all know what lightning does to Vader

I'd say Marr.

Marr was a member of the Sith Leadership during a time when they were fighting each other, the Republic, and outside forces. The guy who takes him down is a hundreds ((thousand?)) year old Sith that ran two galactic empires, at the same time.

A half trained Jedi that has spent at most a year being trained by other Jedi's manages to beat Vader down, cut his hand off, and could have killed him easily if he wanted.

 

 

 

A half trained Jedi that has spent at most a year being trained by other Jedi's manages to beat Vader down, cut his hand off, and could have killed him easily if he wanted.

This is why i have also found it unbelievable when Vader was made out to be all-powerful second only to sidious. He had more raw Force power due to being the Chosen one for sure, but , every time he has faced a skilled force wielder, not padawans and low tier masters, he always managed to get his defenses broken and beat down till the storm troopers or Sidious showed up

I'd say Marr.

 

Marr was a member of the Sith Leadership during a time when they were fighting each other, the Republic, and outside forces. The guy who takes him down is a hundreds ((thousand?)) year old Sith that ran two galactic empires, at the same time.

 

A half trained Jedi that has spent at most a year being trained by other Jedi's manages to beat Vader down, cut his hand off, and could have killed him easily if he wanted.

Keep in mind, Vader beat the utter crap out of Luke their first go around, even cutting Luke's hand off, without really trying. Their second round, it's hard to tell how much Vader was holding back - Luke certainly was at first, until Vader managed to piss him off.

This is why i have also found it unbelievable when Vader was made out to be all-powerful second only to sidious. He had more raw Force power due to being the Chosen one for sure, but , every time he has faced a skilled force wielder, not padawans and low tier masters, he always managed to get his defenses broken and beat down till the storm troopers or Sidious showed up

I hadn't really thought about it that way, but yeah. The only powerful Sith or Jedi that Anakin defeated as Dooku and that was in the presence of Sidious. You could make the argument that Sidious was influencing the fight through the Force to allow Anakin the opportunity to do something "dark" and turn him.

Meanwhile, Marr managed to take control of the Sith Empire by stepping over the bodies of multiple strong foes.

Basically, Vader was a wimp. Thanks for destroying my childhood!

Keep in mind, Vader beat the utter crap out of Luke their first go around, even cutting Luke's hand off, without really trying. Their second round, it's hard to tell how much Vader was holding back - Luke certainly was at first, until Vader managed to piss him off.

Of course Vader beat the crap out of Luke the first time they fought. Luke at that point had a few days of training from Obiwan with a little drone on their trip to Alderann and a crash course training from Yoda that was at most a few weeks long. Luke and the rest of the gang basically leave Hoth at the same time. During the short time from Hoth to Cloud City and getting shanked by Lando that's how long Luke had to train with Yoda.

It's like taking somebody who's spent years learning to fight with a sword and putting them up against somebody who has had less than a month of training.

Then Luke, who has nobody else training him and is self taught takes a year or two at most to get better, in the rematch stomps all over Vader.

Vader Sucks.

Add on: I know that people are going to pull the "But Lucus says...." which is fine. However the first sin of good story telling is "Show don't tell." If you have to tell me how awesomely skilled and powerful some character is despite everything that you are showing me..... meh... you have problems.

Now compared to non-Force users, Vader is scary as all hell. Blocks blaster fire with his hand, disarms people, and force chokes out anybody who bothers him. That however is all pretty much force user basics that anybody who is "strong in the force" is going to do.

As I mentioned before, it's unclear how much Vader was holding back during their last fight - or how much time has passed between ESB and RotJ (could be months, could be up to a year, give or take). Even if he was holding back, Vader was handling himself fairly well in his final fight with Luke - until he mentioned turning his sister (Leia), and utterly pissed Luke off.

Back to the subject at hand, while we know what Vader can do (both from the OT and his recent appearance in Rebels), we really don't get a taste of what Marr can do in his appearances. Yeah, he fights Revan with you and does and admirable job against the Eternal Empire forces

, but you never really see him really unleash his full power on anyone.

As I mentioned before, it's unclear how much Vader was holding back during their last fight - or how much time has passed between ESB and RotJ (could be months, could be up to a year, give or take). Even if he was holding back, Vader was handling himself fairly well in his final fight with Luke - until he mentioned turning his sister (Leia), and utterly pissed Luke off.

The old "I only look incompetent because I'm holding back" line. Yeah, you could argue that about everybody. The only reason Vader beats Han at cloud city is because Han is "holding back", nothing in the movie shows us that they are, we are just going to assume it because Vader needs to be strong and scary?

Even if it's a year, Vader was trained from the age of what 8? 10? to fight with a light saber by other Jedi. Luke gets a month, maybe a few weeks with a Jedi trainer, and then a year of self training and is in the same weight class and even wins a fight against him.

Why it is everyone always brings up the fact Luke was less trained and so it somehow demeans Vader's skill and power?

You realize that Luke is the son of Anakin and therefore has his potential, in taking a page from Legends this means he has an accelerated learning rate where he can pick up things on a lot quicker than other Force Users. Anakin had shown this too and Luke did.

Also Luke spent more time with Yoda than he did Ben, by about a month. Again according to Legends, he also instantly mimiced Vader's fighting style in their final duel which again a testament to his learning curve, in Canon who knows how long exactly but even still you can't really go by the movies because they don't tell you the passage of time.

Now in Canon Luke is also exploring and figuring out how to be a Jedi before he even meets Yoda, so this will greatly showcase in how far he becomes as a Jedi before he even meets him.

Then factoring he's been gaining general combat experience fighting the Empire, then take notice of all the quotes said about him by just the movies alone.

"You have learned much young one."- Vader ESB

"He has grown strong."- Sidious ROTJ

"I see you have constructed a new lightsaber. Your skills are complete. Indeed you are powerful as the Emperor as foreseen."- Vader ROTJ.

Then factor, Luke only won due to a rage amp much like how Obi-Wan was able to briefly contend with Maul when he saw Qui-Gon die. Vader wanted Luke to turn to the darkside, hence he was holding back to a degree, why would he want to kill Luke and not have him turn to help him take down Palps?

Again according to Legends, he also instantly mimiced Vader's fighting style in their final duel which again a testament to his learning curve,

Sounds like Vader was a simplistic fighter that somebody with a few months of being trained by a master and a year or so of self training can mimic and beat.

You realize that Luke is the son of Anakin and therefore has his potential,

Which is why pro-sports teams are filled with 2nd generation players who don't have to get the same level of training they just instantly pick up complex things because their parents were good at the sport. Oh wait, that's exactly not how it happens in any reality.

"I see you have constructed a new lightsaber. Your skills are complete. Indeed you are powerful as the Emperor as foreseen."- Vader ROTJ.

Which says nothing about how powerful he is relatively, but just in comparison to the less than stellar Vader guy.

Vader wanted Luke to turn to the darkside, hence he was holding back to a degree, why would he want to kill Luke and not have him turn to help him take down Palps?

Because letting Luke cripple you seems like a great way to set up a scenario where the two of you defeat the emp and rule together. Oh wait, it's a horrible idea. In fact though it doesn't look like Vader really needed Luke to defeat the Emp, as all luke was doing was taking lightening and crying on the floor while Vader did all the work and tossed the old guy down the elevator shaft. A death move that didn't require any force powers, light saber skills, or even impressive strength past being able to lift up an elderly man. Something all the guys who work at the old folks home possess.

Sounds like Vader was a simplistic fighter that somebody with a few months of being trained by a master and a year or so of self training can mimic and beat.

 

 

 

Which is why pro-sports teams are filled with 2nd generation players who don't have to get the same level of training they just instantly pick up complex things because their parents were good at the sport. Oh wait, that's exactly not how it happens in any reality.

 

 

 

Which says nothing about how powerful he is relatively, but just in comparison to the less than stellar Vader guy.

 

 

Because letting Luke cripple you seems like a great way to set up a scenario where the two of you defeat the emp and rule together. Oh wait, it's a horrible idea. In fact though it doesn't look like Vader really needed Luke to defeat the Emp, as all luke was doing was taking lightening and crying on the floor while Vader did all the work and tossed the old guy down the elevator shaft. A death move that didn't require any force powers, light saber skills, or even impressive strength past being able to lift up an elderly man. Something all the guys who work at the old folks home possess.

1. Uh no Vader was far from a simplistic fighter in Legends, he had a hybrid consisting of pretty much every lightsaber form, incorporating all the most deadly of maneuvers, described as a droid to counteract all lightsaber attacks according to other Jedi and so on. In Canon he's noted as one of the top duelists and deadly with a lightsaber.

2. Not sure what you're getting at here, Luke shown in Legends anyway to have a ridiculous learning curve due to his potential.

3. In a straight up confrontation, yeah Vader did need Luke to help take out the Emperor.

But anyway were veering off topic here.

Yeah, once you start pulling in legends or EU stuff you get versions that don't match the movies in any way shape or form. Nothing about Vader's sword form "in the movie" seemed even remotely impressive. By EU standards Luke is moving so fast he's up there with anime style DBZ/Bleach fighting moves, which yeah... Son Goku Skywalker, total beast of a fighter when he unleashes his Bankai light saber form.

Again though they have the story telling problem of "Show don't tell".

Don't tell me how awesome amazing wonderful impressive totally bestest ever sword style that Vader uses. Bad storytelling in the extreme.

Yeah, once you start pulling in legends or EU stuff you get versions that don't match the movies in any way shape or form. Nothing about Vader's sword form "in the movie" seemed even remotely impressive. By EU standards Luke is moving so fast he's up there with anime style DBZ/Bleach fighting moves, which yeah... Son Goku Skywalker, total beast of a fighter when he unleashes his Bankai light saber form.

 

Again though they have the story telling problem of "Show don't tell".

 

Don't tell me how awesome amazing wonderful impressive totally bestest ever sword style that Vader uses. Bad storytelling in the extreme.

In the new Disney Canon you realize they outright state Vader is a ****** and are showing him to be such? In the rebels series he lifts up two ATST's at the last second with one hand and his comic/book showings are already impressive. They don't seem to be letting up on the feats either.

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/americanspeeddemon/blog/first-blog-so-obviously-canon-darth-vader/106048/

Vader completed his meditation and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.

He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight.

-- Lords Of The Sith

Darth Vader is the ultimate instrument of the dark side.

--Rebels Confidential: Darth Vader | Star Wars Rebels | Official Disney XD UK HD

“Come, Darth Vader, you of all people should accept that some are born for greatness. That some are larger than life.”

Vader remained silent.

“Yes, Lord Vader—Tarkin.” Sidious softened his tone. “You are a true Sith, Lord Vader. Your dedication is unerring and your powers unparalleled. Perhaps, however, you are under the misimpression that only Sith and Jedi have trials to pass.”

-- Tarkin

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11115/111155790/4371814-star+wars+%282015-%29+001-024.jpg

Notice the after images of his blade.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11115/111155790/4603564-darth+vader+006-005.jpg

Blocking blaster fire from all angles at once.

Vader was forty meters from her. He stood up straight, towering over the crew near him. He was looking right at her, his lightsaber held at his side, and she could feel the weight of his regard pressing against her like a punch. He exploded into motion, moving toward her at preternatural speed, his strides devouring the deck space between them. Crew scrambled out of the way at his approach, his dark form knifing through them.

She raised her blasters and took aim, shooting as fast as she could pull the triggers, scribing the air between them with lines of red energy. Vader didn't slow his sprint and his lightsaber was a blur as he came on, deflecting her shots in all directions. A few came back at her. One hit the pallet and sent tools skittering along the deck. Another scorched the bulkhead beside her, but still she fired.

The crew in the corridor panicked, scrambling in all directions. An officer got in Vader's way, slowing his approach for a moment, and Vader tossed him aside with his free hand as if the man weighed no more than a child.

Isval! Eshgo said from behind her.

Vader was twenty meters and closing.

She was shouting, firing, but her shots could not get past the line of his lightsaber. She didn't understand how it was possible, until her own words came back to her: Vader was not a man.

-- Lords Of The Sith

Since you claim he's slow and clumsy. Let's throw that in there.

The freighters opened fire, writing thick lines of plasma onto the air. The shots churned the ground, destroyed trees, heated the air of the clearing; one slammed into the chest of a Royal Guard and vaporized all of him save for his helmet.

Lost in the Force, Vader anticipated the shots that would have hit him, saw the appropriate angles of impact and deflection, and used the rapid spinning of his lightsaber to turn first one, then a second, and then a third shot not into the tree line but back at the ships, the heat and energy of the blaster shots driving him backward, warming the hilt of his weapon, a heat he could feel even through his glove.

-- Lords Of The Sith

Deflected blaster fire from a freighter.

Beak was shooting, too—Namir could hear the sound of energized particles scorching cold air across the hall, but he didn’t dare look. Vader didn’t hesitate or fall. Instead, something appeared in his hand between the pulses of crimson light and suddenly he was holding a weapon, a blade of coherent energy that danced with a twist of his wrist. If Vader had been protected by a force field, it appeared no longer necessary: His energy blade deflected bolts impossibly swiftly, humming and buzzing and crackling as it swept aside a storm of fire.

-- Battlefront: Twilight Company

Again, how fast he can move his lightsaber.

With preternatural speed the Emperor drew, ignited, and slashed at the girl with his lightsaber, but Vader had sensed his Master's intent and moved with greater speed, igniting his own blade and intercepting his Master's blow before it could land.

-- Lords Of The Sith

He beat Sidious in speed.

Note that Sidious was holding back but keeping up with Sidious in any capacity is impressive.

Those V-wings are coming back around, Goll said, firing down into the quarry at Vader, who was sprinting across the quarry's floor, coming on so fast that Cham would not have believed it had he not seen it. Isval had both pistols out and aimed, firing red lines at Vader. Cham was shooting as fast as he could, too, but Vader's blade was faster, deflecting every shot, sending fully half of them back at Isval and Cham and Goll, causing them to duck and cover.

When Vader reached the steep-walled side of the quarry he bounded up, caught a hold on some protuberance or other, crouched, and bounded up again.

That's impossible, Goll muttered, but he kept firing.

Isval knew better. She'd seen what Vader could do. Nothing he did surprised her.

And now he was coming for them.

They kept firing, leaning out over the lip of the quarry to fire down the steep side, but Vader's lightsaber turned the air red before him and none of their shots so much as touched him. He leapt from one spot to the next, ascending, pausing only for a moment upon landing to tense before leaping again and ascending farther.

His blade moved so fast he turned the air red in front of him preventing anyone from getting close.

Then there's this..

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11115/111155790/4380317-0082750926-43734.jpg

In the new canon Vader isn't much different from the old Canon. I can find quotes that outright stated he blitzed past onlookers and cut down opponents before they could even register his presence. Canon Vader matches EU Vader really well in fact many of his best feats come from his canonical feats.

Marr loses in a one on one fight to Vader. He simply doesn't have the feats or accolades that put him on Vader's level. It doesn't matter if you want to use Disney Vader or EU Vader. He wins regardless.

Now if you want to argue this doesn't match the movies be my guess but you'll lose. The new material is very closely monitored by Disney. More so than legends ever has. This mean that Disney intends for Vader to be as powerful as he is. Which also likely means Luke will be monstrously strong in the new movies. There's quotes from Lucas that actually claim Jedi are faster than is shown on screen. You can see this in Episode 1 actually when Obi Wan and Qui Gon are facing Droidekas. They just aren't always depicted like this in combat because Lucas didn't think people would like watching something they could barely follow. Like it or not extreme speeds and powerful telekinetic displays is part of star wars (originally intended or not) and it's here to stay.

Just a small note.

If you are going to compare Vader to Marr, you have to include his Legends feats. Otherwise, you are comparing characters from 2 separate universes. Not even including Disney cannon...

If just using the Vader from the movies (pre-disney) then Vader wins due to default.

If you compare in a way that Marr actually exists (default) then you use Vader's Legends feats.

In regards to the movies, there are severe limitations in what you can really show depending on the medium. When they did ROTS, they still couldn't properly display some force powers, such as when Sidious speed blitz the Jedi Strike Team.

What I mean by all of this? Compare them from the same area of cannon for the sake of logic, and if you must use video's that use RL actors, keep in mind physical/technological limitations.

hen they did ROTS, they still couldn't properly display some force powers, such as when Sidious speed blitz the Jedi Strike Team.

Not true. Phantom Menace came out in 1999. You know what other movie came out in 1999 that had no problem showing people fighting at super human speed? The Matrix.

Two years Later "The One" also came out that showed people fighting at super human speed. That was 4 years before Revenge of the Sith came out that couldn't show somebody moving at super human speeds. There is a scene in it where two guys are fighting against the background of a spray of sparks that they slow down to move at almost no speed while the two humans fighting keep moving at full speed. It works, and works extremely well to convey that the two people in the fight are moving at insane speeds. Again this was *4* years before Revenge of the Sith and the scene that they just couldn't show people moving fast. I guess movie tech went backwards?

Not true. Phantom Menace came out in 1999. You know what other movie came out in 1999 that had no problem showing people fighting at super human speed? The Matrix.

 

Two years Later "The One" also came out that showed people fighting at super human speed. That was 4 years before Revenge of the Sith came out that couldn't show somebody moving at super human speeds.

Let me rephrase...

They did not have the tech to do so without it looking... out of place... in a Star Wars movie. Yet, we all know that they can move and react at incredible speeds.

Totally disagree, and again this comes back to "Show don't tell". They don't show people moving that fast, they tell us they did... in a book, not even in the movie where the scene takes place.

Heck the final fight in the lava between Obiwan and Anakin would have made showing super speed really easy. It was a scene with lots of stuff moving fast in the background that they could have just shown moving slow ((seeing as it was all CGI anyway)) and kept the actors moving at normal speed.

Totally disagree, and again this comes back to "Show don't tell". They don't show people moving that fast, they tell us they did... in a book, not even in the movie where the scene takes place.

Well, actually... They do some it to a degree in the movies. Personally, I always viewed it as them showing it happening in about their perspective time-scale. Since the droids in the PT (who were all equipped with full auto weaponry) always seemed so slow, yet the Jedi seemed to be moving just fine. Such as in the Arena where they deflect many many shots.

For example, we see Kit Fisto doing just fine there, deflecting bolts, cutting into droids... Jump forward one movie. He seems MUCH slower. So while they didn't use the fancy tech to show time dilation, they do show the difference in the combatants speed in other ways. Such as how only Windu was able to keep up with Sidious.

That said... Only came in here for the most part, to point out that you should compare them from the same universe.

That said, back to sorting cargo for Conquest...

Totally disagree, and again this comes back to "Show don't tell". They don't show people moving that fast, they tell us they did... in a book, not even in the movie where the scene takes place.

 

Heck the final fight in the lava between Obiwan and Anakin would have made showing super speed really easy. It was a scene with lots of stuff moving fast in the background that they could have just shown moving slow ((seeing as it was all CGI anyway)) and kept the actors moving at normal speed.

Sorry but I showed you canon sources. Doesn't matter if it happens on screen or not. Those sources are canon. If a canon source says a character can do it. A character can do it. Poor writing/storytelling or whatever. Vader can move preternaturally fast. Vader can swing his lightsaber so quickly he can deflect blaster bolts coming at him from all angles at once. He can lift and crush AT-AT walkers and he can move so quickly people can't even register his presence. These are from Disney Sources. Marr can't beat Vader. Now Revan.. that's a different story but then again Marr isn't on Revan's level either.

Sorry but I showed you canon sources. Doesn't matter if it happens on screen or not. Those sources are canon. If a canon source says a character can do it. A character can do it. Poor writing/storytelling or whatever. Vader can move preternaturally fast. Vader can swing his lightsaber so quickly he can deflect blaster bolts coming at him from all angles at once. He can lift and crush AT-AT walkers and he can move so quickly people can't even register his presence. These are from Disney Sources. Marr can't beat Vader. Now Revan.. that's a different story but then again Marr isn't on Revan's level either.

Darth Marr is from Legends, so you can not bring Disney material describing Vader.

If you pick Vader portraits by Canon, Vader wins 'cose Marr simpy don't exist.

If you pick Vader from Legends, I think that Vader would be destroyed.

Vader-Disney vs Marr is the same thing as you would comparing Sidious vs Sauron, Skywalker vs Superman etc.

As was said before, you should compare characters from the same Universe. Vader-Disney is not from the same Universe as Darth Marr.

Sorry but I showed you canon sources.

Sure and the Canon sources are wildly different. In the movies he's slow, his form sucks, and he gets owned by somebody with at most a year of training. In another canon source he's basically able to take on the avengers by himself.