Hello community, mods & developers! I'm taking the time out of my busy schedule to post this thread in the hopes to get a proper response from the higher ups. I have obtained a full champion pvp set for my lvl 50 assassin on The Fatman pvp server. Very happy with this. I am going to ask that the mods do not redirect me to a different thread or lock this topic. There are a few reasons i'm asking this. I am geared. I have pvp experience in MMOs. I have fully tested all available opinions and advice from the community on these exact forums. I even decided to wait a few weeks of being 50 pvping before coming to a conclusion just to make sure I wasn't wrong about it. I do not want to bury my post on page 55 of some long thread that a lvl 30 started. I want to start this thread out without any criticism that some people in this community debate like to counter attack with. This is the reason for the fresh new post so please leave it and lets get a response from someone in power.

 

Here is a screenshot of me in my gear set so all the people who would like to say i'm squishy can think twice.

 

http://imageshack.us/f/405/expertisescreenshot.jpg/

 

After reading all the threads and countless posts on Scoundrels & Operatives we seen that Bioware quickly nerfed Biochem(which was a solution brought up by the community due to their burst damage) in hopes of fixing the imbalance between the classes. I waited for this fix before posting because as a Biochem I figured just maybe it was a viable solution. It is not. This did not work.

 

I have 1v1 fought every class in this game since release at lvl 50. I keep trying to get 1v1 challenges and opportunities to see how my class stands against others. So far every class I play seems pretty balanced. Each fight is a 50/50 chance for each person except for 2 classes that stand out. Commandos & Scoundrels/Operatives. I have also noticed that Scoundrels seem way more dangerous compared to their mirror Operatives. Excuse me for my ignorance but I dont know what the differences between the classes are that is making Scoundrels so OP in a 1v1 fight. Now before anyone says stop trying to fight these guys 1v1 lets just agree that most of the time you get caught by a scoundrel when youre healing or whatever in a 1v1 scenerio. Telling me to stop 1v1 fighting them is just silly. This is how they play. Most of the time they single me out since i'm a stealth class like them and they wait for me to show up before they attack.

 

Yesturday a Scoundrel killed me 3 seconds flat. Took him literally 3 attacks to kill me. No latency issues. No pc problems(I build my own). CC breaker was up and I used it. Didn't matter at all. I was literally in awe by this. Operatives still kill me 1v1 but they dont kill me that fast. Even if you break the cc they are still in the process of nailing you with more hits. I'm sure ability delays are causing a huge problem with people trying to deal with this class but something is wrong. If i am full champ it should be a fight. Not an easy victory with no chance of opposition. Even when I cc break and stun/DOT them. They still win. That includes Operatives. So all these posts telling people how to play against the class are just wrong. In a melee situation they win. Hands down. No contest. Even without consumable stacking. In group situations they show up and still win. They kill you long before you can react and even when ability delay is on your side and you get the cc break it is still over. So this forces me to stay stealth and wait for that one player to come out so i can jump them. This usually works since they only come out to kill someone and then its 2v1 against them. This is also wrong. No class should require 2 people vs 1 to win. Saying they have 2 min cooldown on vanish is just laughable. If you die by the time you get back in the match youre cooldowns are ready to be used again.

 

So community tell me what i'm doing wrong? I've done everything you suggested and things are still not working against this class. Even with the nerfs to consumables. Please dont respond with learn2play comments because i'm sure 99% of the people that use that comment have never even seen a 1900 weapon before or even know what it is. Let alone the fact i was a ret pally that reached well over 2200 and only 5% of the world could do that in arena with that class. I know how to play and accept constructive advice. Telling everyone they need all cd's ready at all times for one class will NOT work. This is not ideal gameplay advice. There needs to be tactics with normal abilities.

 

As for commandos i've just started to test myself on them more often to try and disect the ways to beat them. Seems like its near impossible though with the damage they do and the mitigation they have.

 

If you plan on trolling this thread feel free but don't expect a response to it from me at least. You will also be reported for any negativity towards this post.

 

Please some developer acknowledge this issue is being looked into for me. Stop me from wasting so much time against this specific class with some insight that you know something is wrong.

omg i was buried! lol

OH i see whats going on here. Since you cant pick apart my post and reply with lolnoob stuff its not getting any attention. Sigh. Maybe tomorrow when all the haters get kicked from this forum posts like this will get some constructive comments.

valor 56

 

2 chap gear enough said... see valor 30 ful gear... whats the point..

 

Hutball all the time

broken ilum.

 

OP use cc and run thats all you can do. with them. When cc works. press 6 time nothinghappens..

Edited January 20, 2012 by seallone

im valor 55 offensive focus guardian.

 

i cant confirm your experience. i am strong into 1v1 situations as you. i dueled some top players of my server, including a very good guy playing a battlemaster scoundrel (that kind of player that hit 3k in wow arenas).

 

with stacking consumables there was something wrong (even though not gamebreaking), that got fixed in the patch.

 

without stacking consumables i have a hard but FAIR fight. really.

 

 

swtor does not encourage to adapt your play to enemy class. lets say i find it annoyingly difficult to even see what class i am encountering (i know its in tooltip and gear gives good hints, BUT it could be far more obvious to improve pvp gameplay).

the game teaches you how to play your character in a general way. the game does not teach you to build tactics against other classes.

reason is, that many classes are based on quite similar skills, the cc system is very similar for almost all classes. there simply is not much to adapt to.

 

yet in case of some classes you HAVE to adapt. people are not used to it. so it feels imbalanced. it kinda is, in the way of letting people think they can just standard play to victory in every situation.

 

 

annex

 

as many players here i played wow and here is something i am seriously missing:

 

playing a warrior the way of a fight highly depends on my enemy:

 

against rogue i will look for failures in his long rotation and aways be aware to either go defensive or offensive and switch.

against frost mage i have a tough CC fight, against going between offensive and defensive play and keeping track of enemy cooldowns all the time

against warrior i focuse on dps rotations and enemy rage level for short kiting

against warlocks and shadowpriest i use all cc i have to counter and prevent key casts (unstable affl./incinerate/vampiric touch/mindblast)

... etc.

 

every fight is a complete different "minigame" with different key aims. in swtor the fights are too similar. same rotations, same cc

Edited January 20, 2012 by theMornox

OP use cc and run thats all you can do. with them. When cc works. press 6 time nothinghappens..

 

All i got from that was use cc break and run. Thats not a valid option. That is also not fair balance if all you can do is run from one class the entire end game.

im valor 55 offensive focus guardian.

 

It seems some of what you said is spot on but alot of it doesnt apply. No offense at all. Ty for adding to the thread. The fact you need to be a Guardian for a fair fight says it all really. And yeah SWTOR does require you to have different tactics for each class fight since obviously OP/Scoundrels cant be killed. I mean they are supposed to be squishy but i'm still only hitting them for the same amount as everyone else so i dont understand whats going on. Actually i do understand really. They need to be toned down a little on their damage abilities. Having burst is one thing but having complete dominance of all classes is pretty crazy to be overlooked the entire beta. Even the beta forums were full of OP/Scoundrel problem pvp threads. I'm sure its not an easy fix for BW though since they have to rethink the class and keep them viable in pve too.

Edited January 20, 2012 by kiroshei

60 Scoundrel Here. U cant beat me as sin, thats pretty much it, only if i will have 15% hp, but even if that, i will just stun you, if u brake it, ill blind u and heal myself to full, than vanish and 6k you without your escape up, ull 100% die. Sorry, but all you can do is cc me and run as fast as you can, yes u have to admit it, there is no other way but running away from good scoundrel. In additon, i can say i can easly kill 2 shadows even if they are good, all they can do is just cloack of shadows and vanish or run in sprint.

 

In conclusion, all i suggest u is cloack of shadows/vanish or sprint after u use your escape skill, thats a suggestion from 60 scoundrel who doesnt even pay attention to sin when he jumps on him, id rather go for operative or sage, tanking sin.

While in general I agree with you that sometimes ttk is WAY too short in swtor.

 

I think the main problem lies in the insufficient diminishing returns on stats, you can still stack clickables for extreme dmg bursts on some classes trooper/bh and scoundrel/ops are the 2 classes where it was and is most obvious (maybe there are others too but I do not have any experience in that regard).

 

The next problem is of course that defenses are pretty much hard capped, as far as I know there is no clickable that gives you more internal/elemental resistance or more armor.

Only more shield absorb or chance which is against these fast kill rotations completely useless (ie will be bypassed).

 

 

The other side of the problem of course is that if tanks would be made tankier to counter clickable stackers none stackers would be pretty much unable to kill a pockethealed tank.

 

 

I don´t know any solution to the problem that would not create the unkillable tank problem in return but then again I´m not payed to think up solutions ^^

I believe the healing is another issue. One lone merc with 19k hp today couldnt be killed unless 4 of us attacked him. Thats just insane.

honestly yes i get that you are geared VERY WELL but despite that fact you are still sitting at under 20% dmg reduction which really doesnt cover it.

burst classes will be able to destroy you badly.

both of those classes and their counterparts have big Armor Pen abilities which takes your 18 or 19% and turns it into 0% meaning full damage everytime.

i play on a shadow with the tank set but every mod has been pulled out and switched with dps/crit/surge mods to increase how much dmg i deal.

Im still sitting on 40-45% dmg reduction which may not seem like much but greatly increases my survivability vs them. I can honestly say if i get jumped by an OP/Scoundrel they have about a 30% chance of killing me. I dont care how geared they are.

if troopers or BH try to kill me i lol them and either kill them or cc and simply leave.

they have great dps but 1v1 i tear them apart.

60 Scoundrel Here. U cant beat me as sin, thats pretty much it, only if i will have 15% hp, but even if that, i will just stun you, if u brake it, ill blind u and heal myself to full, than vanish and 6k you without your escape up, ull 100% die. Sorry, but all you can do is cc me and run as fast as you can, yes u have to admit it, there is no other way but running away from good scoundrel. In additon, i can say i can easly kill 2 shadows even if they are good, all they can do is just cloack of shadows and vanish or run in sprint.

 

In conclusion, all i suggest u is cloack of shadows/vanish or sprint after u use your escape skill, thats a suggestion from 60 scoundrel who doesnt even pay attention to sin when he jumps on him, id rather go for operative or sage, tanking sin.

 

55 tank shadow here and sure you may play and defeat bad sins/shadows and win a lot, it hapens, but fighting against someone who is equally as good does not mean insta win for you.

i personally love going against ops/scoundrels for the fact that sure you may be able to break my cc when i break yours and such but your dps will not hit me for 6k period no matter how you stack it. also i hit for 3k regularly so you will have to heal a lot more. i know my class very well and i take pride in killing people who think that they are playing an imba class.

There is only one class that destroys me badly without any type of fight. I dont think me packing on a tank's stat was something that BW meant to happen to be able to survive 10 more seconds lol. Know what i mean? Cool idea though to go with the tanking gear. But that solution isn't going to work for a stalker set. I have half a tank set on Xalek too. Its just silly that i have to run or go tank gear to be able to compete against one class.

There is only one class that destroys me badly without any type of fight. I dont think me packing on a tank's stat was something that BW meant to happen to be able to survive 10 more seconds lol. Know what i mean? Cool idea though to go with the tanking gear. But that solution isn't going to work for a stalker set. I have half a tank set on Xalek too. Its just silly that i have to run or go tank gear to be able to compete against one class.

 

Sorry but that is you. Your class, the thorn in your side, paper beats rock, rock beats scissors, scissors beats paper. I play a full champion set powertech and Ops have nothing on me but Marauders and Assassins give me trouble.

 

You shouldn't expect an equal playing field against every single class in the game.

Sorry but what class gives you any sort of trouble at all within 3 seconds? NONE. No tank class in any MMO ever would drop in 3 seconds flat. Thats why youre a tank. So your input is just basically say reroll tank which is not a solution to the issue.

 

Let me give you some insight. Being a top tier ret pally and playing the crappiest class in WoW for pvp. Think about it. I could still manage to beat any class in the game by out smarting the player and using my ablities in perfect timing. And that was with a "lolret" class that should lose every single fight or "you're bad". So how come i can't live longer then 3 seconds against this class? Are you saying BW intended the Scoundrel/Operative to be able to gib Assassins that fast? I could understand if i was in full pve gear and squishy. I'm not. So whats going on? Reroll tank isnt a proper answer. Thank you for your input though.

 

This is why i hope to hear from an actual developer on the matter. If they say YES Kiroshei, Scoundrels/Operatives should be killing you that fast in full champion gear, then i'll bow my head and take it up the pooper.

Whats Broken is trying to get Champion Gear from Bags. I ONLY have 2 peices of champ gear & I have dups for both of them ( 1 being my off-hand weapon I have 3 of them PLUS the one I am using & 2 earpieces) This is rediculious, I havent recieve any thing else but off hand & ear & all i get from the RnG bags is those 2 things.. BW needs to fix this so u cannot get dups or allow a trade in for them .. all this work & no gear & then when I do get a drop ... its an offhand =/ / earring .. this is so fustrating for me.. Edited January 21, 2012 by Furyton

I'm q shadow, I'm very unhappy with our " burst if you can call it that) and I have The same issue and I'm also full champ ect for cent head and bracers.

Too big a block of text, with too much to analyze without any real gain. You seem pretty much set up on your opinion. Just have two things I wanna point out. That I can say for Certain.

 

1: A scoundrel can not have killed you in 3 seconds flat, because that is 2 GCD's. Meaning that he would have had to do about 7-8k on each of those two attacks. And considering you have expertise and you can't stack dps increasers any more, I just dont believe you. And that lie of yours, well just ruined your credability.

 

2: I talked in lenght with a Scoundrel that I got paired up with in a WZ today. It turned out that he was a experienced long time MMO/PvP player. And had a lvl 50 champion/battlemaster Operative. but had decided that he (being a PvP:er) would change faction for the benefits of being a underdog (yes, there is benefits to being the underdog. Like close to instant pops etc).

Now he just couldn't understand why, but in his experience the scoundrel was just not as strong as it's mirror class the operative.

Now this opinion of his might just be based on him being used to having all the tools you have (his operative being lvl 50) but I dont think so. There is plenty of little things out there all over the game favouring the Empire, beyond the fact that all their gear/animations are more polished/worked with.

Wrong thread Furyton. Thank you for sharing your troubles though. I would appreciate you staying on topic.

 

We have great dps imo. In general as long as i handle things appropriately based off the situation i can take down every other class. Some need help and i run away alot due to it. Like sages. Sages tear through Assassin's but i've beaten alot of them too so i'm not worried about it.

 

One thing that bothers me is that expertise offers a damage boost and damage reduction to every class. This just cancels each other out offering no damage reduction at all. If two classes equally geared square off against each other they may as well fight naked. Perhaps BW should consider removing the damage bonus from expertise. The only thing it should offer you is longer survivability anyway. Thoughts?(keep in mind this would also stop fully pvp geared teams from stomping non-pvp geared teams so fast too. its the damage boost against a pve geared player that kills them so damn fast)

1: A scoundrel can not have killed you in 3 seconds flat, because that is 2 GCD's. Meaning that he would have had to do about 7-8k on each of those two attacks. And considering you have expertise and you can't stack dps increasers any more, I just dont believe you. And that lie of yours, well just ruined your credability.

 

WRONG. He did kill me in 3 seconds flat. He also killed another player before they could get off the ground. So maybe your friend is doing it wrong? When i seen him instagib the other player i was in awe. I assumed i at least stood an 6 second chance being fully geared. Wrong of me to assume so. I cc broke and was dead. So all he did was his opener, to which i responded, then another move. Dead. So yeah. 2 GCDs. You're right. If any BW employee wants to check my combat for that day they can see it clearly. So take your "oh you liar" stuff and leave. I dont care if your friend of a friend of a grandmothers son's uncle did this and that. MAYBE he was hacking since youre so convinced its impossible. When its not. Since operatives can still kill me in 5-6 seconds. For some odd reason though the republic classes DO seem to have an advantage since i can beat the empire versions and not the repub versions.

 

Also refer to my previous post about how 2 equally geared players cancel out expertise due to damage boost. Expertise does jack against someone in the same gear.

 

So how about instead of tanks, people who just run, dps wearing tank gear & people upset over champion bags, we get some people who have tactics that work. I see no tactics listed by any of you. Which is, btw, the point of the thread. Maybe this is just telling me there is no tactic. That this is wrong. End of story. That BW does need to look at this class and fix every bit of it. Whether that be mine or theirs. Perhaps it could be that the damage boost on expertise needs to be removed so it actually means something.

 

I cant see how removing damage boost would be a bad thing since it would offer longer fights between classes. This would then come down to player skill and not "LOL my cooldowns were up so you dead brah" stuff. Only thing it would effect would be healers dieing. Healing in pvp should be toned down anyway. They can do this without effecting pve too by just gibbing healing only in pvp.

 

So thats MY solution to the problem

 

REMOVE damage boost from expertise creating actual skill based pvp

REDUCE healing in pvp only to account for above fix

 

So unless BW has another solution that is class specific. I vote doing that.

Edited January 21, 2012 by kiroshei

Well then nvm. Read 1.1.1 and even BW believed Operatives & Scoundrels deserved a significant damage reduction. Perhaps this will completely solve the issue. Thanks for all that read and came. Clearly BW knew there was a problem.