Update: (6/29/13) Fix announced for Patch 2.3! Great news!

 

Update: (6/05/13) Bioware has presented a "Working As Intended" response, but they are considering a redesign of the relics in question for a future update. I am keeping this thread active and will continue to update the parse list to promote awareness for this issue and support for its resolution.[/i]

 

The Issue: The PvE Serendipitous Assault (SA) relics do not stack with the PvE Direct Damage (DD) relics (Dark Radiance, Elemental Transcendence, etc).

 

Details: When the PvE SA relic of any tier procs its power buff effect, it puts any equipped DD relic on a 4.5s cooldown. The same happens the other way around. I would not expect this to happen because the relics are only supposed to be non-stacking with similar effects. Their effects differ in the following ways:

 

• Trigger - The SA relic triggers on damage and healing, while the DD relics only trigger on attacks, both at a 30% chance.
  
• Damage Mechanism - The SA relic applies a 6s buff on the user that increases power, while the DD relics deal a set amount of damage directly to the target.
  
• Cooldown - The SA relic can only apply its effect once every 20 seconds. The DD relics cool down in 4.5 seconds.
  

 

As it is now: Currently, the SA and DD relics used together cannot proc both of their effects within the same 4.5 second period. Upon browsing a combat log of a long parse, the effects are always separated by 4.5 seconds.

 

If it worked correctly: The relics should be able to stack, which would mean the effects of both relics should be able to proc on their own cooldowns independently. This would keep the SA proc from being delayed by multiple DD procs in a row and allow DD procs on top of SA procs as well.

 

What this means: As it is now, a player using both relics may as well be using just one of them, if not for the static stats on the relics. The inability for these relics to stack decreases potential DPS by 1-3%, depending on the RNG.

 

Combat logs from parses with PvP and PvE gear:

 

Carnage, PvP, SA, DD

http://www.torparse.com/l/242155

Power Surge is the SA buff, Wind Buffet is the DD attack. In this short PvP gear parse, you can see the Wind Buffet proc'ing within 4.5 seconds of the Power Surge effect twice (Second Power Surge), once before and once after. It procs 3.2s before and 1.4s after the Power Surge. This shows that PvP relics are not affected by this issue.

 

Annihilation, PvE, SA, DD

http://www.torparse.com/l/242323

Power Surge is the SA buff, Dark Spike is the DD attack. To browse this log, it is best to ctrl+F and search for Power Surge, then look within 4.5 seconds of each one front and back. The fight lasted almost 5 minutes, but not once does Dark Spike proc within the 4.5 second frame before or after a Power Surge.

 

Other parses linked from other players:

• http://www.torparse.com/a/211929/3/0/Overview (Arsenal Mercenary, SA and Energy Surge relic)
  
• http://www.torparse.com/a/243083/2/0/Overview ^
  
• http://www.torparse.com/a/229039 (Carnage Marauder, SA and Burning Force relic)
  
• http://www.torparse.com/a/219666 ^
  
• http://www.torparse.com/a/209577 ^
  
• http://www.torparse.com/a/207955 ^
  
• http://www.torparse.com/a/260125 (Sniper Hybrid, SA and Dark Radiance relic)
  
• http://www.torparse.com/a/261157 (Sniper Hybrid, SA and Dark Radiance used in separate parses)
  
• http://www.torparse.com/a/262993 (Lethality Sniper, PvP SA and PvE Cerulean Nova relic)
  
• http://www.torparse.com/a/271424 (Annihilation Marauder, SA with Dark Radiance relic)
  
• http://www.torparse.com/a/276445/2/0/Log (Carnage Marauder, SA with Dark Radiance relic)
  

 

Mathematical relic breakdown here

Edited June 29, 2013 by Lyer

Do you know if this affects PvP relics as well?

-,- when these mess with relics will be finaly fixed

Bioware if you didnt know , time pass and time cost money in these game , even that you say the game is Free2Play

taking months to give definite answer on relics and their vague info (internal force dmg?) is annoying and shows unserious development.

Now when we finaly got a fix for stacking PVP Serendipitious Assault Relics, you broke all proc relics completly.

In my eyes stacking PVP relics was exploit wich considerably lowers TTK and intended level of challenge wich we already experience for 2 subscribed months.

I realy have no intention to farm new relic every patch.

There are tons of asian true f2p games who are farming oriented, but you know, their endgame is open to everyone not only subscribers.

Ok... I did some data gathering. The sheets are pretty self explanatory, but there seems to be an issue with the procs of pve power/dmg, getting someway in the way of the each others procs.

 

http://sdrv.ms/16w4Mvb

 

The "clean" sheets are just the proc information.

 

Towards the top of the clean sheets show which relics were used, fight duration and proc counts/avg.

 

All the tests were continuous fights on a ops dummy on my ship.

 

You can see this on sheet "1-clean". Sort by time ascending and look at the time between procs.. (filter the "remove effect" from power surge to see this better)

 

So it seems that 2 criteria is being applied to the power proc relic... 20 secs and 4.5 secs from the last damage proc.

 

You will see like results on sheet "3-clean" and "4-clean" as well.

 

The problem with this is that you can get extremely long reprocs from the power proc relic.

Updated the list of player parses, indicating class, spec, and relics in use. Thanks for the input!

 

Also:

Do you know if this affects PvP relics as well?

No, the PvP relics stack just fine. http://www.torparse.com/l/242155 is my PvP parse over just a short time, and the extra 4.5 second cooldown is not in effect. The relics proc within 4.5 seconds of each other twice, even in just the short time this parse takes up. Look for "Power Surge" and "Wind Buffet".

Updated the list of player parses, indicating class, spec, and relics in use. Thanks for the input!

 

Also:

 

No, the PvP relics stack just fine. http://www.torparse.com/l/242155 is my PvP parse over just a short time, and the extra 4.5 second cooldown is not in effect. The relics proc within 4.5 seconds of each other twice, even in just the short time this parse takes up. Look for "Power Surge" and "Wind Buffet".

 

Thanks! People are saying that PvP relics are not working though, so I'm confused:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6380492#post6380492

I'm going to say that the PVP relics are broken as well. On my Scoundrel I have a Pa EM and a Cq SA. By all rights, both should proc together as each has a different effect, but as you can see by my log here (Skip down to about 11:11:11 and look for POWER SURGE[one time] and HEALING RESONACE[two or more times]) it shows that my procs come just about every 20 seconds without a double proc or even a rolling proc. Now is this because the SA procs off healing? IDK, but if thats the case then they should have either removed the healing or explained that the healing itself locks it out with other healing effects cause as it stands, since the SA proc is a power boost and the EA proc is a HoT... the should be procing together...

Did you try Partisan SA + Conqueror SA? They must dont stack atm, but works one after other...

Just ran a parse with my Sniper. One Partisan SA Relic (PvP) and one Arkanian CN Relic (PvE)

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/262993

Edited June 5, 2013 by BobaFaceroll

Did you try Partisan SA + Conqueror SA? They must dont stack atm, but works one after other...

 

if you are referring to them roll procing they do not and it has been proven that they do not.

Another odd thing about Relics that I don't think is correct comes with the power procs (and also Gore to an extent if ravage is cast slowly):

If Serendipitous Assault procs and you cast a 2.0 heal cast with 1.5 seconds left of the power proc... The heal is not effected by the added power of the proc because it finishes after the proc is gone. The power that procs is only applied to attacks/heals that during that period of time or HoTs//Dots that are on the target.

 

The power proc when it's up is great for anyone that has HoT's//DoT's rolling (operative heals / lethality snipes / anni maras) but for everyone else it's situational where the proc falls within rotation.

 

Most other games apply that power to everything cast during the proc... so if you were casting a big heal that ended after the power proc ended, it still would be effected by that added power.

 

I'm curious if this is what was intended.

Updated the parse list. Also, BobaFaceroll's parse (http://www.torparse.com/a/262993) does get power surge, but even though it is a PvP relic and his direct damage relic is PvE, the non-stacking issue still applies.

 

This means that the PvP SA relics don't stack with the PvE DD relics either.

Edit: Nevermind-misread the post...bolster related hijack post is not warranted in this case and has been deleted- my bad Edited June 5, 2013 by LrdRahvin

That could potentially explain why my parses are somewhat low... using Arkanian Seredipitous and (old) Dread Guard Elemental proc.

 

That and five other things, most of which I am now aware

In light of this news I'm sticking with my 2x EWH Boundless Ages relics. Unless those too have issues I'm not yet aware of. Edited June 5, 2013 by Projawa

This thread has some really interesting info in it, thanks for all the hard work!

 

With this information in hand I went to the combat team to talk to them about it. What they told me is that right now, the relics are working as intended. However, we are going to be revisiting the design of these relics with a possibility of changing the way they interact in a future Game Update.

 

I hope that helps!

 

-eric

Eric, do PVP Power Relics stack with PVP Direct Damage relics? Or do PVP relics share this same working-as-intended mechanism as PVE relics? Thanks.

Edited June 5, 2013 by revcrisis

Hearing that this is working as intended is rather disheartening. A small direct damage effect on a 4.5 second cool down and a +Power effect on a 20 second cool down do not strike me as "similar effects". Their only similarity is that they proc automatically on a cool down as opposed to a being a "clicky" relic. The fact that they wind up fighting over that cool down doesn't make much sense, not when the timers are completely different along with the effects.

 

Two defensive procs on the same cool down, with the same effect duration sharing a proc chance? That makes sense. Two direct damage relics, both with a 4.5sec cool down? That makes sense. Different effect types with different internal cool down timers sharing a proc chance? Does not make sense.

 

Thanks for the update though...it's appreciated.

This thread has some really interesting info in it, thanks for all the hard work!

 

With this information in hand I went to the combat team to talk to them about it. What they told me is that right now, the relics are working as intended. However, we are going to be revisiting the design of these relics with a possibility of changing the way they interact in a future Game Update.

 

I hope that helps!

 

-eric

 

LOL this was intentional!? Dear God just give pve players their click relics back and pvp players the flat stat rate. Get rid of this proc crap. What a joke.

how disappointing. I wish just once BW could implement something that works correctly and not claim working as intended but we'll change it in the future when they find out stuff isnt working right. So glad I wasted my hard to come buy relics from raiding to get a SA and a dmg proc relic that end up screwing eachother on cds. Guess for the new tier Ill just go with SA + BA combo

Working as intended? Such a joke.

 

They likely didn't even know how they were working and when confronted with the information just said, "uhhh, yeah, working as intended."

Eric, do PVP Power Relics stack with PVP Direct Damage relics? Or do PVP relics share this same working-as-intended mechanism as PVE relics? Thanks.

 

PvP relics work the same as the PvE ones. If this really is working as intended, the guy responsible should be fired for having such ridiculous intentions, in my opinion.

PvP relics work the same as the PvE ones. If this really is working as intended, the guy responsible should be fired for having such ridiculous intentions, in my opinion.

 

This. If this is truly 'working as intended', then it is intended that PvPers only use ONE PvP relic (and fill the other spot with an old PvE matrix or similar).

 

That's just plain old dumb.

I understand some of the logic involed in the choice they made (assuming it actually is intended to work this way at all), but the end result just boils down to one word: Nope. It didn't work. Fix it.

This thread has some really interesting info in it, thanks for all the hard work!

 

With this information in hand I went to the combat team to talk to them about it. What they told me is that right now, the relics are working as intended. However, we are going to be revisiting the design of these relics with a possibility of changing the way they interact in a future Game Update.

 

I hope that helps!

 

-eric

Yes, that does help!! thank you! THESE are EXACTLY the types of posts were asking for more of! Seriously, that's all a lot of us want--just some friendly acknowledgement that you've read our posts. It's that easy. And these types of posts make it apparent to me that you're listening to concerns about communication; it's great that you're making a concerted effort to improve and I really appreciate it.