Because lets face it, a small increase in DoT damage will hardly change anything. In order to truly buff PVE performance without sending us over the top in PVP, the "Player Target" clause needs to be used more-- Like in the following:

Rising Flames (Or some other cheesy name):

Flame burst now applies one stack of Rising Flame to your target, decreasing their damage reduction by 0.5% for 12 seconds. In addition Non-player targets take 8% increased damage from your next flame burst. Stacks up to 3 times.

This would be placed at the bottom of some tree, so that both specs would have access to it

This would not affect PvP much at all, would give PT's a small ramp up time to achieve their max DPS, and would bring their DPS to be more in line with other classes in PVE. Universal changes intended to only affect one aspect will either fail to change anything -- thereby just wasting a patch -- or will overtune something, sending PvPers to QQ by the thousands until the class is nerfed into the ground, Again. Seriously, the devs should look at this sort of solution, only changing one aspect -- but by the needed amount -- instead of small universal changes.

Let me know what you guys think, or offer your suggestions so that things actually get fixed.

Because lets face it, a small increase in DoT damage will hardly change anything. In order to truly buff PVE performance without sending us over the top in PVP, the "Player Target" clause needs to be used more-- Like in the following:

 

Rising Flames (Or some other cheesy name):

Flame burst now applies one stack of Rising Flame to your target, decreasing their damage reduction by 0.5% for 12 seconds. In addition Non-player targets take 8% increased damage from your next flame burst. Stacks up to 3 times.

 

This would be placed at the bottom of some tree, so that both specs would have access to it

 

Let me know what you guys think, or offer your suggestions so that things actually get fixed.

I don't mind it. I personally think increasing DoT damage/duration is probably a better way to "fix" PTs/VGs in the long run, especially for Assault. Ideally just Gut/IR (VG terms). It would provide more freetime for IP/SS spam.

I find "Only on NPC targets" a lazy way to fix balance issues. Because it's not really balancing anything. Your class/spec should play the same way in PvE/PvP, aside from slight talent changes for each environment. More often than not you shortchange the spec in one environment over the other. In my opinion.

Regarding the skill proposed....ehhh. Is this -1.5% DR just for you? Raid wide? Stack on top of the DR provided by guardians/gunnery/gunslingers? I don't see 1.5% additional DR suddenly making PT DPS necessary in a group, but it may somewhat change the ideal NiM group meta, depending on the parameters of this debuff.

Is 3 stacks buffing your Flame Burst by ~25%. That's over 1000 additional damage per FB And having FB apply stacks that buff FB itself seems kind of strange. I know that's how merciless slash works, but it seems odd. The way you have it worded suggests it may be consumed by the buffed FB, or maybe not. I'm not sure.

Also, the low tier skills for Pyro/AP are for the most part useful for one of the trees. Would you replace one of the current skils? AP doesn't take more than 2 points in Pyro because the endurance boost and Plasma Cell req make the other abilities lackluster. If you put it in the second tier of Pyro, it's effectively locked to AP.

Just some thoughts.

I don't mind it. I personally think increasing DoT damage/duration is probably a better way to "fix" PTs/VGs in the long run, especially for Assault. Ideally just Gut/IR (VG terms). It would provide more freetime for IP/SS spam.

 

I find "Only on NPC targets" a lazy way to fix balance issues. Because it's not really balancing anything. Your class/spec should play the same way in PvE/PvP, aside from slight talent changes for each environment. More often than not you shortchange the spec in one environment over the other. In my opinion.

 

Regarding the skill proposed....ehhh. Is this -1.5% DR just for you? Raid wide? Stack on top of the DR provided by guardians/gunnery/gunslingers? I don't see 1.5% additional DR suddenly making PT DPS necessary in a group, but it may somewhat change the ideal NiM group meta, depending on the parameters of this debuff.

 

Is 3 stacks buffing your Flame Burst by ~25%. That's over 1000 additional damage per FB And having FB apply stacks that buff FB itself seems kind of strange. I know that's how merciless slash works, but it seems odd. The way you have it worded suggests it may be consumed by the buffed FB, or maybe not. I'm not sure.

 

Also, the low tier skills for Pyro/AP are for the most part useful for one of the trees. Would you replace one of the current skils? AP doesn't take more than 2 points in Pyro because the endurance boost and Plasma Cell req make the other abilities lackluster. If you put it in the second tier of Pyro, it's effectively locked to AP.

 

Just some thoughts.

It may be the "lazy way" but to me it seems like the only viable way to boost one without changing the other too much. There's only so much that increasing DoT damage would do, it won't magically give us 400 more DPS by making IR/Gut do slightly more damage. As for the 1.5% DR, that was more of just a small thing thrown in to make the skill not be 100% useless in PVP. The increasing damage would essentially work like merciless slash, in that it wouldn't be consumed, but it would really only increase each FB damage by ~600 since non-crits only hit for 2400-2500.

Either it would be just added, or replace "Power armor" in the AP tree (increase Damage reduction)

It may be the "lazy way" but to me it seems like the only viable way to boost one without changing the other too much. There's only so much that increasing DoT damage would do, it won't magically give us 400 more DPS by making IR/Gut do slightly more damage. As for the 1.5% DR, that was more of just a small thing thrown in to make the skill not be 100% useless in PVP. The increasing damage would essentially work like merciless slash, in that it wouldn't be consumed, but it would really only increase each FB damage by ~600 since non-crits only hit for 2400-2500.

 

Either it would be just added, or replace "Power armor" in the AP tree (increase Damage reduction)

I agree that it certainly would help DPS. I just don't like "Only on NPCs" as a balancing mechanism. I think you could get pretty close to balanced by tweaking DoT length/damage/ammo cost.

And I'm not trying to be difficult or argumentative, but I like these sort of way to fix class/spec discussions because they tend to be a good way to discuss how the class works. You know really think about mechanics/rotations/balance etc. I think be really hashing out ideas and putting them through their paces, you indirectly become better at the class as a whole.

and FWIW, PT tanks would probably be upset you took away their 2% DR for an ability that is probably less attractive for them.

One thing hurting Pyro which is been mentioned many times in the past is the tree layouts. At 4/6/36 full Pyro is unable to acquire full points in Rail Loaders, and 0 points in Hot Iron, and Hyper Fuel. If nothing else at least Hyper Fuel should be accessible to Pyro because a fire dealing DoT class unable to boost its fire damage seems flawed.

Pretty sure everyone still loathes the pitifully low additional 1% internal/elemental damage offered to AP by Prototype Cylinders. Maybe if it stacked up to 3 times with each use of Immolate or something I wouldn't hate taking that skill so much.

To be fair, ever since 2.7 came out and fixed weapon damage i've been gunned down a lot more often than normal on my Assault Vanguard, to the extent i've been constantly killed through adrenaline rush. If I can survive long enough to activate it (them stuns). Im starting to think we can give universal buffs to PTs without worrying about breaking PvP because of this.

Anyway, to get in line with other classes similar to us, Pyro PTs need about 200 dps more. The devs stated they were swapping the 2% alacrity for 2% crit because alacrity hurts us, and thats about a 48 dps increase. So they only need to increase the DoTs by about 50dps each. Over 90 seconds, you get about 30 ticks of Incendiary Missile, 24 ticks of Thermal Detonator and about 45 ticks of Combustible Gas Cylinder. Increasing CGC damage by 71 damage/tick, IR burn damage by 108 damage/tick and TD burn damage by 134 damage/tick (in dread forged) will get the DPS of Pyro PTs in line with other melee DPS specs. This equates to:

Combustible Gas Cylinder. Coefficient changed from 0.1715 to 0.1955

Incendiary Missile. Burn Coefficient changed from 0.28 to 0.3245

Thermal Detonator. Burn Coefficient changed from 0.3 to 0.3553

The percent of these increases ranges from 13.9% (CGC) to 18.4% (TD), and both are within the realm of 'slight' that Bioware works with (Slight buffs to Clairvoyant Strike, Double Strike and Quick Shot were about 20% increases each. Same with the 'slight' buff to Rail Shot in 2.4)

Anyway, assuming that Bioware gives us the 2% crit instead of alacrity for rapid venting and buffs the DoTs by ~15% each, you will see Pyro PTs in line with other specs.

As for AP? Well its the highest parsing AoE Spec

But yeah, Make Power Loaders also reduce the cooldown on shoulder cannon for that spec, and undo the RB nerfs from 2.4, and it will catch up quite nicely. Though expect a nerf to PFT if that happens.

To be fair, ever since 2.7 came out and fixed weapon damage i've been gunned down a lot more often than normal on my Assault Vanguard, to the extent i've been constantly killed through adrenaline rush. If I can survive long enough to activate it (them stuns). Im starting to think we can give universal buffs to PTs without worrying about breaking PvP because of this.

 

Anyway, to get in line with other classes similar to us, Pyro PTs need about 200 dps more. The devs stated they were swapping the 2% alacrity for 2% crit because alacrity hurts us, and thats about a 48 dps increase. So they only need to increase the DoTs by about 50dps each. Over 90 seconds, you get about 30 ticks of Incendiary Missile, 24 ticks of Thermal Detonator and about 45 ticks of Combustible Gas Cylinder. Increasing CGC damage by 71 damage/tick, IR burn damage by 108 damage/tick and TD burn damage by 134 damage/tick (in dread forged) will get the DPS of Pyro PTs in line with other melee DPS specs. This equates to:

 

Combustible Gas Cylinder. Coefficient changed from 0.1715 to 0.1955

Incendiary Missile. Burn Coefficient changed from 0.28 to 0.3245

Thermal Detonator. Burn Coefficient changed from 0.3 to 0.3553

 

The percent of these increases ranges from 13.9% (CGC) to 18.4% (TD), and both are within the realm of 'slight' that Bioware works with (Slight buffs to Clairvoyant Strike, Double Strike and Quick Shot were about 20% increases each. Same with the 'slight' buff to Rail Shot in 2.4)

 

Anyway, assuming that Bioware gives us the 2% crit instead of alacrity for rapid venting and buffs the DoTs by ~15% each, you will see Pyro PTs in line with other specs.

 

As for AP? Well its the highest parsing AoE Spec

 

But yeah, Make Power Loaders also reduce the cooldown on shoulder cannon for that spec, and undo the RB nerfs from 2.4, and it will catch up quite nicely. Though expect a nerf to PFT if that happens.

tbh I miss the 3 button rotation.

Anyway, to get in line with other classes similar to us, Pyro PTs need about 200 dps more.

Sentinel: over 4000 http://www.torparse.com/a/617660/time/1394611675/1394611924/0/Damage+Dealt

Scoundrel: over 4100 http://www.torparse.com/a/632282/time/1396173573/1396173816/0/Damage+Dealt

Jugg: close to 3900 http://www.torparse.com/a/620224/1

Mercs: over 4100 http://www.torparse.com/a/607798/time/1393788432/1393788675/0/Overview

PT/Vanguard: 3655 http://www.torparse.com/a/575571/time/1391381979/1391382253/0/Overview

taken from the leaderboards here http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=734965

So no, we would need 300-400 more dps to be with similar classes, that's about a 10% overall damage increase. I don't think that'd be possible with just buffing DoT damage. And the fact that Mercenaries in the "same spec" parse almost 500 more dps leaves something to wonder about.

Sentinel: over 4000 http://www.torparse.com/a/617660/time/1394611675/1394611924/0/Damage+Dealt

Scoundrel: over 4100 http://www.torparse.com/a/632282/time/1396173573/1396173816/0/Damage+Dealt

Jugg: close to 3900 http://www.torparse.com/a/620224/1

Mercs: over 4100 http://www.torparse.com/a/607798/time/1393788432/1393788675/0/Overview

PT/Vanguard: 3655 http://www.torparse.com/a/575571/time/1391381979/1391382253/0/Overview

 

taken from the leaderboards here http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=734965

 

So no, we would need 300-400 more dps to be with similar classes, that's about a 10% overall damage increase. I don't think that'd be possible with just buffing DoT damage. And the fact that Mercenaries in the "same spec" parse almost 500 more dps leaves something to wonder about.

Sentinel: Melee Range. Big hit comes from Either a channeled attack, or an unintentional hybrid that the devs have stated is going to be removed Soon-ish™

Scoundrel: Melee range, must be behind target

Jugg: Melee Range, must channel the big hit

Merc: Bugged (Mercs get 2x CGC procs per rail shot, compared to the 1x Plasma Cell proc per HiB of commandos. Though Commandos are at 3900 dps, but still... Assault Mandos are a bit too strong IMO)

PT/VG - ~10 meter range.

in other words, you need to compare PT/VG with...

Lethality Operatives and Dirty Fighting Scoundrels (Go in every so often to whack em with your gun, though most of the time you can sit at 10 meters).

By increasing the coefficients by the numbers I gave, as well as the crit chance by 2%, PT/VG will end up at ~3875 dps in dread forged gear (I did maths with simulations and stuff), which is to be expected from a class that is ludicrously mobile. I mean, look at Assault Vanguards vs Dread Council Raptus. They keep up threat and damage with other Raptus kiters, but without taking damage. No other class can get those numbers on Raptus without taking damage.

Oh and the best lethality dummy parse is this: http://www.torparse.com/a/539477/time/1388810399/1388810658/0/Overview

3859 dps.

Sentinel: Melee Range. Big hit comes from Either a channeled attack, or an unintentional hybrid that the devs have stated is going to be removed Soon-ish™

Scoundrel: Melee range, must be behind target

Jugg: Melee Range, must channel the big hit

Merc: Bugged (Mercs get 2x CGC procs per rail shot, compared to the 1x Plasma Cell proc per HiB of commandos. Though Commandos are at 3900 dps, but still... Assault Mandos are a bit too strong IMO)

PT/VG - ~10 meter range.

 

in other words, you need to compare PT/VG with...

 

Lethality Operatives and Dirty Fighting Scoundrels (Go in every so often to whack em with your gun, though most of the time you can sit at 10 meters).

 

By increasing the coefficients by the numbers I gave, as well as the crit chance by 2%, PT/VG will end up at ~3875 dps in dread forged gear (I did maths with simulations and stuff), which is to be expected from a class that is ludicrously mobile. I mean, look at Assault Vanguards vs Dread Council Raptus. They keep up threat and damage with other Raptus kiters, but without taking damage. No other class can get those numbers on Raptus without taking damage.

 

Oh and the best lethality dummy parse is this: http://www.torparse.com/a/539477/time/1388810399/1388810658/0/Overview

 

3859 dps.

Interesting, by my math for my original solution it would bring DPS up to ~3883 in dread forged gear (not counting the damage reduction part, because I can't into maths). So I guess it equals out to about the same, but mine wouldn't have any impact on PvP, but I'm glad you showed that. Ideally we'd have both, and have 4000 We'll have to see how it handles in PvP, and avoid QQers. I'm not so sure that PT/Vanguards should have less dps simply because they have a 10m range however, but that's another debate.

As for Scoundrels needing to be behind the boss, if any DPS is standing in front of the boss they're doing it wrong. Yeah there are bosses with no aggro table that may face you on occasion, but those fights are few and far between

But the main thing to realize is that not every situation will be solvable with universal solutions, because PvP and PvE are so different, it's almost impossible to balance both of them unless you separate skills or use the "NPC's only" thing. The other question is, after the DoT damage is increased, where do you go next? If they still need buffs would you further increase DoT damage? If you shy away from separating skills then there's only so much you can do without pushing one area into the danger zone.

Maybe I'm just screeming "Doomsday!!" for no real reason, but I do feel like trying to balance classes between PvE, PvP, and arenas (lol) will never work well unless there's some separation of skills.

As for AP, what about shortening the CD on rocket punch to 7.5 seconds so you could get two of them into the standard 15 second rotation? Make it part of flame barrage: remove the rng, slightly increase Rocket Punch damage, decrease the CD by 1.5 seconds.

Another interesting idea I heard was to have PTF work similar to Juggernauts new ravage, once you build 3 stacks (could only build 1 stack every 3 seconds?) it resets the CD on FlameThrower. It would probably really mess with PvP balance, and would completely change the rotation, but it sounded interesting.

And of course

the pitifully low additional 1% internal/elemental damage offered to AP by Prototype Cylinders.

make that **** like 10%

I find "Only on NPC targets" a lazy way to fix balance issues. Because it's not really balancing anything.

This. You know that pre-2.0 CGC was 30% of Pyro's damage in PvE? And they cut it in half. Think about that loss in DPS. Rebuff it, and problem solved. And in PvP no one would whine about it because it's not applied on every single Flame Burst anymore.

As for AP, the Prototype Cylinders talent needs to go from increasing elemental damage by 1% to 6%. Easy, simple fixes.

This. You know that pre-2.0 CGC was 30% of Pyro's damage in PvE? And they cut it in half. Think about that loss in DPS. Rebuff it, and problem solved. And in PvP no one would whine about it because it's not applied on every single Flame Burst anymore.

 

As for AP, the Prototype Cylinders talent needs to go from increasing elemental damage by 1% to 6%. Easy, simple fixes.

^This

This. You know that pre-2.0 CGC was 30% of Pyro's damage in PvE? And they cut it in half. Think about that loss in DPS. Rebuff it, and problem solved.

So long is it's a PT/Vanguard only buff.

So long is it's a PT/Vanguard only buff.

Truth.

This. You know that pre-2.0 CGC was 30% of Pyro's damage in PvE? And they cut it in half. Think about that loss in DPS. Rebuff it, and problem solved. And in PvP no one would whine about it because it's not applied on every single Flame Burst anymore.

 

As for AP, the Prototype Cylinders talent needs to go from increasing elemental damage by 1% to 6%. Easy, simple fixes.

Back then TD had no dot. Currently TD is close to the damage range it dealt before 2.0 plus the dot. Doubling CGC damage will result in roughly 200-250 dps at top level of gear (outside execute phase), then ~50 dps from critic. PvP wise this is a lot, especially in execute phases. Considering how easy it is to apply and reapply CGC, not the best approach to go.

IMO best thing for pyro is to move the endurance to the tank tree and get the 6% fire. This combined with critic and maybe a slight improvement in IM..

For AP, making RP 7.5 seconds makes the rotation much more fluid. I this combined with increasing the bonus from the cylinder from 6% to 7-8% should put AP in a good place.

Back then TD had no dot. Currently TD is close to the damage range it dealt before 2.0 plus the dot. Doubling CGC damage will result in roughly 200-250 dps at top level of gear (outside execute phase), then ~50 dps from critic. PvP wise this is a lot, especially in execute phases. Considering how easy it is to apply and reapply CGC, not the best approach to go.

It's close to the damage it deals pre 2.0 because the gear went from 63 to 78. If old TD had the new gear, there'd be no contest. The DoT is ****** anyway. Give me the burst any day.

I like your Pyro suggestion with the rearrangement of the tree, but then again, what are you going to remove in order to take those 3 extra points in Pyro?

As for AP, what about shortening the CD on rocket punch to 7.5 seconds so you could get two of them into the standard 15 second rotation? Make it part of flame barrage: remove the rng, slightly increase Rocket Punch damage, decrease the CD by 1.5 seconds.

 

Another interesting idea I heard was to have PTF work similar to Juggernauts new ravage, once you build 3 stacks (could only build 1 stack every 3 seconds?) it resets the CD on FlameThrower. It would probably really mess with PvP balance, and would completely change the rotation, but it sounded interesting.

 

And of course

 

I don't know, it sounds good in theory, but its easy to build the stacks, considering it stacks with flame burst and immolate. On the other hand, Vengeance uses only two stacks, but both those abilities, Impale and Shatter, have cooldowns of 9 seconds and 12 seconds respectively. It could work if there was a lockout timer, but not if there wasn't one. It would be too OP.

Changes were announced on PTS. I determined a 15% increase and the +2% crit rate is a DPS increase of 200.

So they did a +35% increase and +2% crit rate.

Inb4 beating scrapper scoundrels. While standing at 10 meters.