More to the point, central Star Wars canon and Lucas himself indicate that the "Force in Balance" is, indeed, the Light side itself. To put it another way, the Force is light and all things pertaining to it until it is selfishly twisted, manipulated, or coerced down paths it would not normally follow. That's why Jedi say "the Force will guide me" or "the Force is with us," instead of seeing it as a tool or a weapon like the Sith do.

Lucas has done a 180 on this btw, ever since the Father, the son, and the daughter in TCW, Lucas actually said that there needs to be a balance between the light and the dark. So cannon changed, it happens, but Lucas still maintains that there is no in between and you are either light or dari (not evil or good, keep your morals to yourself thank you).

Lucas has done a 180 on this btw, ever since the Father, the son, and the daughter in TCW, Lucas actually said that there needs to be a balance between the light and the dark. So cannon changed, it happens, but Lucas still maintains that there is no in between and you are either light or dari (not evil or good, keep your morals to yourself thank you).

That whole Mortis arc is so lame. Lucas destroyed everything pertaining to balance and the Chosen One with just one episode.

I agree, I liked it better when it was just THE FORCE, and THE DARK SIDE, no light side hokey pokey. made more sense with for the whole dark side being corruption of the force instead of light and dark which made it seem more like a lack of understanding through word play. Seriously though, you can't have light and not have dark, just like you can't have hot and not know cold, or happy without sad. But whatever, not my cannon, I just enjoy it ^_^.

P.S. that is also the reason I am now a dark sider, because it isn't evil any more, its just a tool for a means to an end.

That whole Mortis arc is so lame. Lucas destroyed everything pertaining to balance and the Chosen One with just one episode.

Not really.

It showed us, that DS and LS can exist together in Balance. But the DS user will eventually kill or try to kill/destroy the Light Side.

They both may start out balance but in the end there really can't be any Force-Users for the DS because the User will eventually threaten the Light-Side in someway or form

Not sure if that makes sense.. but thats what I got from Mortis..

Not really.

 

 

It showed us, that DS and LS can exist together in Balance. But the DS user will eventually kill or try to kill/destroy the Light Side.

 

 

They both may start out balance but in the end there really can't be any Force-Users for the DS because the User will eventually threaten the Light-Side in someway or form

 

Not sure if that makes sense.. but thats what I got from Mortis..

You know, I've been thinking the same thing about that arc, but it just doesn't seem like that. Your theory makes sense and I agree with it. While Sith could exist with the Jedi, they would eventually try to attack the Jedi. I'm sure the Jedi would love it if the Sith were'nt so hostile. I'm sure they would have no problem co-existing, but the Sith do have an issue with it. Which leads to balance being brought when the Sith either stop using the Dark Side or are destroyed.

I don't know how much I believe that Jedi would be ok with dark siders. I think it is more of on an individual basis, as opposed to a blanket comment that Jedi would be ok with sith if the sith kept to themselves. I feel it is more of a mutual destruction, where both sides seek to rid themselves of the other (sith don't want Jedi because they are a threat, and the Jedi don't want Sith because they are a threat). A catch 22 if you will.

Actually, the Jedi defend themselves from the Sith. The Sith have always been the aggressor. The Sith have always wanted to destroy the Jedi and take over the galaxy. It's always been that way. The Jedi simply defended themselves, but then took a more active role in destroying the Sith to achieve peace. The Sith have always disrupted the peace of the galaxy, the Jedi are the galaxy's peacekeepers. Ergo, they destroy the Sith to keep peace.

right they destroy the sith to keep the peace, that is what I said, Jedi destroy the sith because they are a threat. I don't see how what you said was different from what I said. Sith believe that they should control the galexy(for the most part, some just want power) Jedi believe they should not let the sith rule (because the sith counter their beliefs) but no matter how you slice it, the Jedi believe they know better about how the galaxy should be ruled by saying that the sith's way is the wrong way.

to say that one way or the other is wrong, is a point of morality, not an actual stance of good and evil. Are you going to fault the civilization that is canabalistic because they ate your padawan, and hold it against them to not trade for an engine part you need? if you do that is not the Jedi way according to my books of the EU.

Do we call the Roman Empire evil because they conquered the known world and enforced their laws on people?

How about the British Empire?

Now that being said would I want someone to come in and tell me that I had to change the way I lived and what I had to do? No. Also that being said from my point of view, they would be evil, but from their point of view they are doing the right thing.

Getting back to the main point, the Jedi wouldn't leave the Sith alone, and vice versa.

Lucas has done a 180 on this btw, ever since the Father, the son, and the daughter in TCW, Lucas actually said that there needs to be a balance between the light and the dark. So cannon changed, it happens, but Lucas still maintains that there is no in between and you are either light or dari (not evil or good, keep your morals to yourself thank you).

I'm hearing that adolescant "don't judge me" thing in your retort. By chance were you in the 11th grade English class I was teaching at some point, defacing a desk with a pocket knife?

That whole Mortis arc is so lame. Lucas destroyed everything pertaining to balance and the Chosen One with just one episode.

A lot of longtime fans go with what Lucas made before, ignoring the gradually building body of lunacy that came after. A warning sign was that the terrible new novels he apparently approved, one after another, shortly before formally quitting the franchise. My personal guess was he was so overwhelmed with bad EU proposals that he just said "sure whatever" and gave up defending his work.

So yes, he did give some ammunition to power-fantasy hungry "Grey" fanboys in his permissiveness. Shame on him for that.

I agree, I liked it better when it was just THE FORCE, and THE DARK SIDE, no light side hokey pokey. made more sense with for the whole dark side being corruption of the force instead of light and dark which made it seem more like a lack of understanding through word play. Seriously though, you can't have light and not have dark, just like you can't have hot and not know cold, or happy without sad. But whatever, not my cannon, I just enjoy it ^_^.

 

P.S. that is also the reason I am now a dark sider, because it isn't evil any more, its just a tool for a means to an end.

Yep. It's easy and fun to be a dark sider without that unpleasant "evil" label. In a way you're only reinforcing what I'm saying about power fantasy trumping plausibility.

George hates shades of grey. That is why he has (by God of Star Wars Decree) banned the idea of "Balance between light and dark" as a valid lore point in Star Wars.

For the record, I think he's wrong. For the record, I believe George needs to check his freakin' ego. He created the Star Wars universe, but he sure as hell hasn't written the best stories for it!

Yep. It's easy and fun to be a dark sider without that unpleasant "evil" label. In a way you're only reinforcing what I'm saying about power fantasy trumping plausibility.

I know you are upset because you obviously feel that your ethics are the basis on which all should be judged which is why you keep quoting and judging me. But the truth is, truth is a matter of perspective english teacher, and this space butterfly's point of view shows that you are upset that we don't see eye to eye instead of coming up with an actual argument.

I know you are upset because you obviously feel that your ethics are the basis on which all should be judged which is why you keep quoting and judging me. But the truth is, truth is a matter of perspective english teacher, and this space butterfly's point of view shows that you are upset that we don't see eye to eye instead of coming up with an actual argument.

In real life, I am a university graduate that's studied, debated, and written extensive papers on ethical and religious philosophers ranging from Mill to Milton, Socrates to Sarte. It is certainly a vast, vast area to discuss and even disagree with. Once you know the "rules" of something, you can bend or even break them. In the case of Star Wars, I embrace the mythos as entertainment unashamedly, because I know what it is and accept it for what it is: a plucky struggle between a fictional overwhelming evil and an underdog good that somehow comes out on top, again and again.

My point here is that in this fantastical fictional universe, it was designed from the get-go, in the late 70s, to be a welcome relief from the rather dreary, grimy science fiction cinema of its time. It explains the massive positive reception Star Wars got in theatres and started an entire cultural movement.

You can pretend to be as edgy as you like and demand that even this fictional universe conform to your chokingly muddled shades of grey, but that's not the way it was designed, nor the way it was originally successful, and frankly, it's not a good turn for the franchise now.

If you're too bitter for Star Wars, and need things to fit your way in your fiction, there are literally hundreds of competing franchises to indulge you.

One more thing: I get it, the world's a scary and unpleasant place without clear good guys or bad guys that wear costumes to make their alignments obvious. Still, the point of most fantasy is so we can indulge in the nonexistent, pretend the impossible is real. One too many franchises have been dragged through the mud already in an attempt to appease your particular metrics demographic. My two cents is that Star Wars at its core is so far removed from what you're apparently in to that demanding that it change for your jaded, cynical whims is more exhausting and destructive than simply finding something with enough moral equivalency and murky grey area to satisfy your desire for "realism".

Game of Thrones is very popular right now. I'm certain with a two minutes search you can find a version of it in space.

Jedi always come off as arrogant and standoff. I could see why the sith would want them dead. Less, "this is the way you're supposed to do things" preaching around the galaxy.

While a valid point of view (if a Sith point of view) in the Star Wars mythos, it's a curious thing to condemn the Jedi as "arrogant" while ignoring the Sith excesses of ego as if they are less arrogant.

Destroying and entire planet (Taris) simply to prevent one Jedi from escaping it? Building vast and expensive monuments to oneself and forming cults around one's own personality? Indeed, exterminating entire civilizations to attain immortality, and seeking even larger massacres for even greater power (the Sith Emperor)?

That's the problem with moral relativists, both in fiction and real life. They'll gloss over the big stuff if the small stuff looks the same.

True consistency is rare in human nature, and the universe in general. Be glad things don't contradict themselves more often.

I keep thinking of Atton's big speech when you try to convert him to a jedi in KOTOR II.

"...Because Jedi lie. They're teachers, except when it comes to telling their students the truth. They're pacifists, except during times of war. The galaxy doesn't need jedi hypocrisy anymore. At least the Sith are honest about what they are killing for..."

The game offers an intelligent perspective of the messy gray area in morality and the force. It may not be Lucas Canon, but it is SW nonetheless.

True consistency is rare in human nature, and the universe in general. Be glad things don't contradict themselves more often.

 

I keep thinking of Atton's big speech when you try to convert him to a jedi in KOTOR II.

"...Because Jedi lie. They're teachers, except when it comes to telling their students the truth. They're pacifists, except during times of war. The galaxy doesn't need jedi hypocrisy anymore. At least the Sith are honest about what they are killing for..."

 

The game offers an intelligent perspective of the messy gray area in morality and the force. It may not be Lucas Canon, but it is SW nonetheless.

Messy, sure, but simply throwing the metaphorical baby out with the bathwater seems excessive. There's a reason KOTOR 2 has a sharply divided opinion regarding its narrative delivery and philosophical conclusions. It's great stuff for discussing (perhaps exhaustively) just how hypocritical Jedi are and making the Sith seem "not so bad", ignoring the really vast atrocities the Sith have committed all the while.

If I may take a small out-of-setting tangent, it's not even a point of argument to declare that "truth is relative", though if you stop there, feeling smart about it, that's no basis for a societal model. The reason ethical and moral constructs are manufactured to begin with is so a civilization can have a standardized model of "what is the right thing to do," and even if it varies from place to place, and even from time to time, that basis is what keeps things at least stable enough to function, so people can live beyond what Hobbes called a life that is "nasty, brutish, and short."

Let's take the Star Wars setting, and assume for that purpose the notion that the Force is real. The Force is something that can strangle people across long-distance electronic transmissions. It can hurl lightning from the fingertips. It can read thoughts and feelings and manipulate them. Yes, it might seem "unfair" that the Jedi Order has all these fussy rules about attachment and the judicial application of the Force, but simply going by what the setting offers, the alternative seems to be not unlike real-life Somalia, only with people hurling lightning at each other over minor personal grudges instead of shooting Kalashnikovs.

It's well and good to discuss just how unfair, oppressive, and hypocritical the Jedi are, but fabricating some "Grey Jedi" silliness whole-cloth simply so you don't feel quite so oppressed, then laughably proposing they have some "code" beyond "waaah don't judge me I'm special", feels wonky, both in and out of setting.

Just how much of the Dark Side is enough? Only exterminating half of a planet? Only killing people who "deserve it" with the Force (I can have a field day with the "moral relativism" required to justify that action on a personal level)? Spinning a roulette wheel to decide if I'm going to be cruel and savage today, even if that wheel is still 80% "good"?

That's my problem with "Grey Jedi" as a concept in a nutshell. It simply seems to be an easy way out for EU fiction writers and their fans to have all the cool powers with none of the drawbacks, responsibilities, or consequences. I can understand its vast appeal to some, especially those feeling confused and slighted by contemporary life, but there's so much fiction out there that indulges that sort of thing already: why drag Star Wars in the mud? (it's already been done quite a few times already)

Oh, and one more thing, "At least they're honest" is a very poor excuse for Sith actions. If I declare openly I will rob you, take everything you have, then shoot you, am I somehow more righteous and ethical than a sneaky, shady con artist that finds legal means to steal your stuff, yet didn't bother to shoot you? Again, Jedi can seem oppressive and hypocritical, but compared to the mass-murders and galaxy-ravaging excesses of the Sith, "at least they're honest" is laughably weak argument. Atton wasn't exactly a philosopher, either. Just an angry, jaded young man.

Amusimg. This may come as a shock to your college-educated mind, but the world isn't perfect. You can sit there all day at your computer trying to sound intelligent making long winded paragraphs trying to illustrate a simple point, but in the end there isn't just a black and white. The world doesn't work that way--sorry buddy. Does it keep you up at night knowing that there is this mystical thing called the middle that connects two extremes? I bet it does, otherwise you wouldn't have gone through all the trouble to post your life's story on a forum just for arguments sake to elevate yourslef above us mortals here. Nor would you have taken 5 paragraphs to say something that could"ve been said in one. I guess that is ego for you. Anyway, have fun being right all the time. It must be a huge burden having to have all the answers. Maybe you'll grow up some day.

I look forward to your next response, as if anybody cares. But your ego will probably demand it.

Amusimg. This may come as a shock to your college-educated mind, but the world isn't perfect. You can sit there all day at your computer trying to sound intelligent making long winded paragraphs trying to illustrate a simple point, but in the end there isn't just a black and white. The world doesn't work that way--sorry buddy. Does it keep you up at night knowing that there is this mystical thing called the middle that connects two extremes? I bet it does, otherwise you wouldn't have gone through all the trouble to post your life's story on a forum just for arguments sake to elevate yourslef above us mortals here. Nor would you have taken 5 paragraphs to say something that could"ve been said in one. I guess that is ego for you. Anyway, have fun being right all the time. It must be a huge burden having to have all the answers. Maybe you'll grow up some day.

 

I look forward to your next response, as if anybody cares. But your ego will probably demand it.

You don't seem to be doing well debating this, falling back to the intellectual superiority of declaring how smart you are for discovering to your endless satisfaction how uncertain and lacking in clarity the contemporary world is. Good for you. Too bad you'd make a poor politician, let alone a poor community organizer, with that attitude. Why hold to any standards at all if they're not ironclad, irrefutable, and given from some perfect being from on high?

Now, back to Star Wars. Star Wars is a fictional universe with long-standing fictional troupes, among them a light-hearted (in most cases) and clearly drawn lines between good guys and bad guys. It may be infuriating to you in your self-declared mental supremacy that such a thing exists in Star Wars and has since the beginning, but that's the neat part about fiction: it lets the impossible be possible.

I'm sorry for whatever tumultous life experience made you need to have your murky cynical point of view extend even to your entertainment and fiction. But again, there are many alternative offerings to sate your endless need to feel smart and superior to us "college educated minds." Star Wars and your desire for absolutely everything to share your morally relativistic point view don't mix well. They're oil and water, metaphorically.

Oh, yes I do care. Is that so bad?

The original version of the Jedi Code sounds pretty grey to me:

Emotion, yet peace.

Ignorance, yet knowledge.

Passion, yet serenity.

Chaos, yet harmony.

Death, yet the Force.

It's easy to exist or think in terms of extremities/polarities. It's also easier to manufacture conflict this way and drama is nothing without conflict, otherwise we'd have no films/books/games to debate. It's much harder for people to find balance, or want to find balance.

The sad thing is they actually let this guy graduate college when the concept of "moderation" eludes him. Do they just handout degrees nowadays or what? More likely you argued with your profs 'cause you know better than them until they got sick of you and tossed you out in the big scary world where only absolutes exist. You'd also think you'd be smart enough to realize that your debating with a moral relatavist is totally pointless as we will never see eye to eye--yet you still keep trying. You think they woulda taught you that too, but I guess you'd be wrong.

Anyways, I recognize this is stupid. So I will quit and allow you to continue pretending to be someone smart.

The original version of the Jedi Code sounds pretty grey to me:

 

Emotion, yet peace.

Ignorance, yet knowledge.

Passion, yet serenity.

Chaos, yet harmony.

Death, yet the Force.

 

It's easy to exist or think in terms of extremities/polarities. It's also easier to manufacture conflict this way and drama is nothing without conflict, otherwise we'd have no films/books/games to debate. It's much harder for people to find balance, or want to find balance.

The early code is probably a superior code from a gentler time, where it was easier to see the whole of things and find anchoring points of serenity in a difficult galaxy. I wouldn't call it more "grey," just less polarized. The Jedi have gone into a reactive state in Old Republic due to the overwhelming threat of the Sith. While I'm not particularly happy about it, it's the outcome that happened.

If it's so hard to find a "grey" path why is it so overwhelmingly popular among the fanbase right now? I suspect that if one took a metric of roleplayers or even simply atmospherically-minded players the overwhelming majority would consider themselves "grey" special snowflakes. No, not Dark. That's a label. Labels are unfair.

The sad thing is they actually let this guy graduate college when the concept of "moderation" eludes him. Do they just handout degrees nowadays or what? More likely you argued with your profs 'cause you know better than them until they got sick of you and tossed you out in the big scary world where only absolutes exist. You'd also think you'd be smart enough to realize that your debating with a moral relatavist is totally pointless as we will never see eye to eye--yet you still keep trying. You think they woulda taught you that too, but I guess you'd be wrong.

 

Anyways, I recognize this is stupid. So I will quit and allow you to continue pretending to be someone smart.

Nice battery of personal attacks. Shows your maturity and even damages your arguments more than I ever could. You're only showing me what a wall of circular logic and mantra-like "everything is relative everything is moot" moral relativists can be. Sad you have to bring your vindictive agenda into a fictional universe where it is sorely out of place.

In a Star Wars sense, what "moderation?" There is already wiggle room in the Jedi Order, even if things are frowned upon by the Council they tend to happen anyway (like romance with Kira, or even Satele Shan's son). I must have really touched a nerve, what with my declaring half-genocides to still be genocides and half-tyrannies to still be tyrannies. "Moderation" indeed.

Just play a Sith already. Not all Sith are baby-eating monsters, just selfish and self-indulgent. "Grey Jedi" really seems to be code language for someone precisely like you to sate your own fantastical desires in a setting that doesn't fully support it in the fiction or in the mind of its maker.