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DD´s don´t get guard and active heal infight


Ashbar

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Why can a DD guard and why can a DD active heal, if he fight? A DD should only do Damage, no active taunt, no guard and no active heal - only Damage - It is ok when they can heal, if they are out of fight.

 

Maybe make the healstim useable every 3mins, whether in combat or not

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Why can a DD guard and why can a DD active heal, if he fight? A DD should only do Damage, no active taunt, no guard and no active heal - only Damage - It is ok when they can heal, if they are out of fight.

 

Maybe make the healstim useable every 3mins, whether in combat or not[/QUOTe]

 

There are a few answers to your question, but I think the best answer is to quote what the ancient rakata, Soa, once said: Git gud noob.

Edited by Rion_Starkiller
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There are a few answers to your question, but I think the best answer is to quote what the ancient rakata, Soa, once said: Git gud noob.

 

He's absolutely right.

 

I don't mind if you don't agree with that, that's your prerogative, but could you please stop with the 'git gud' stupidity, I mean, do you even have a personality of your own? Must everyone be a drone?

 

Make up your own insults at least please because quite honestly, I'm literally embarrassed for you.

 

Again, everyone is entitled to hold any opinions they like, no matter how utterly stupid and ridiculous those opinions may be, but please, return the 'git gud', 'L2P', 'MadCuzBad', 'Triggered', 'Autistic', 'uninstall', 's***ers','baddies''s to the hive mentality you got them from.

 

People who think that it makes sense for DPS to be able to heal up to 1 million + heals in a WZ are people who are so bad at the game that they need that amount of heals in order to not be able to even hit 1K.

 

Guards, Taunts, heals, Off-heals, Perma stealth, cleanses, and the ability to raise people from the friggen dead, have absolutely, positively not one single thing to do with doing damage.

 

Try playing a real DPS sometime, and by that I mean a Marauder because they are the only class that doesn't multi-role and than see how good your DPS is. [No disrespect is intended to Assassins and PTs, they are not big offenders in this regard but they do have off-tanking abilities [guard and taunt], but as stated they aren't big offenders and I respect them].

 

P.S. - Soa never said any one of those three words, not even one time.

Edited by WayOfTheWarriorx
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Why can a DD guard and why can a DD active heal, if he fight? A DD should only do Damage, no active taunt, no guard and no active heal - only Damage - It is ok when they can heal, if they are out of fight.

 

Maybe make the healstim useable every 3mins, whether in combat or not

 

I couldn't possibly agree more with you.

 

Sadly, that will not ever change. It's all about crutches.

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What some people will never understand is that strong dcd’s are basically like healing yourself without consuming a ton of resources as long as they are used correctly. Take cloak of pain for example, 20% dr for 6-30 seconds depending on how much you are hit. Now if you are hit for 50k damage while that is active, you mitigate 10k of it, which has the same end result as healing yourself for 10k after the fact. The main difference that makes cloak of pain significantly better under most scenarios (since most of the time there will be at least 1 healer around) is that dcd’s like cloak of pain stop you from getting bursted down as quickly, you can’t heal if you’re dead since you have no damage reduction. That’s why a sorc with no barrier or phase walk will get blown up in a stun, since they can’t mitigate the damage to run away and heal up.

 

The only scenario where healing is better than strong dcd’s is when there are no healers around and you are not getting focused at all. Even when there are no healers around, if a sorc gets focused, they will either die before being able to heal up enough to make it better than dcd’s or they will have to run away so far that they are effectively out of the fight anyways and the only thing that does is make the end scoreboard look better with less deaths. When they have to do that though, most of their damage will consist of dotting everyone without putting out any real pressure. Obviously there is a threshold where healing can be so strong where it is stronger than dcd’s *cough* 3.0 madness sorcs *cough*. Even for merc dps, their healing has been tied to dcd’s (their actual healing abilities are pretty bad for their resource cost) and they have been nerfed to appropriate levels.

 

There’s a reason why marauders have been considered top dps class in pvp for quite a while now by almost everyone that knows what they’re doing in pvp and isn’t wearing rose colored glasses. Their dcd’s are incredibly strong when used correctly and they become gods when any competent healer is around them. Even snipers are still really strong when played correctly, although that is seen less since using their dcd’s optimally is harder than most other classes even though their healing in their utilities is not that relevant anymore.

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What some people will never understand is that strong dcd’s are basically like healing yourself without consuming a ton of resources as long as they are used correctly. Take cloak of pain for example, 20% dr for 6-30 seconds depending on how much you are hit. Now if you are hit for 50k damage while that is active, you mitigate 10k of it, which has the same end result as healing yourself for 10k after the fact. The main difference that makes cloak of pain significantly better under most scenarios (since most of the time there will be at least 1 healer around) is that dcd’s like cloak of pain stop you from getting bursted down as quickly, you can’t heal if you’re dead since you have no damage reduction. That’s why a sorc with no barrier or phase walk will get blown up in a stun, since they can’t mitigate the damage to run away and heal up.

 

The only scenario where healing is better than strong dcd’s is when there are no healers around and you are not getting focused at all. Even when there are no healers around, if a sorc gets focused, they will either die before being able to heal up enough to make it better than dcd’s or they will have to run away so far that they are effectively out of the fight anyways and the only thing that does is make the end scoreboard look better with less deaths. When they have to do that though, most of their damage will consist of dotting everyone without putting out any real pressure. Obviously there is a threshold where healing can be so strong where it is stronger than dcd’s *cough* 3.0 madness sorcs *cough*. Even for merc dps, their healing has been tied to dcd’s (their actual healing abilities are pretty bad for their resource cost) and they have been nerfed to appropriate levels.

 

There’s a reason why marauders have been considered top dps class in pvp for quite a while now by almost everyone that knows what they’re doing in pvp and isn’t wearing rose colored glasses. Their dcd’s are incredibly strong when used correctly and they become gods when any competent healer is around them. Even snipers are still really strong when played correctly, although that is seen less since using their dcd’s optimally is harder than most other classes even though their healing in their utilities is not that relevant anymore.

 

What do heals have to do with DCDS? They are two completely seperate things. DCDS are called Defensive cool downs for a reason, key word is defensive. A heal is not a defensive measure, it's a recuprative measure. That's like somone saying "Quick, get me a shield, I just cut myself" or someone saying "Look out, that guys about to hit you with a sword, put your bandaid in the way to block it!"

 

DCDs are great, no one is saying otherwise, but, in the case of Marauders, as great as they are, they are fleeting as hell and they have very long cooldowns on two of them, Let's do a little math.

 

Undying Rage - 4 second up time, 3 minute cooldown

Saberward - 12 second uptime, 3 minute cool down

Cloak of Rage 6 second up time 1 minute cooldown

Force Camoflage - Irrelivant

 

Force Camoflage cannot be used while you are fighting to mitigate damage. So, if you are fighting,and someone's attacking you, you cannot use Force Camoflage to mitigate damage, even if they are not attacking you but you are attacking them [which you should be if your worth your salt] you cannot use Force Camoflage.

 

When you are invisible, no one can attack you, and if no one can attack you there is nothing to defend against. I'm not saying that Force Camo isn't useful, but it is useless as an in combat DCD it does not function in combat. It's 4 seconds of invisibility. It doesn't take you out of combat, you cannot heal, and 4 seconds later, you are in the exact same postion you were when you first clicked it. People know marauders that disappear will reappear in 4 second sand they will still be in a combat state so even if they had something very close by to get behind in 4 seconds it's irrelivant because all you need to do is look at your compass and you know exactly where that mara is, and where he is, is not far at all. Most of the time, you get caught. The only way that works is if your enemy is lazy and doesn't feel like finishing you off. Which, in 6 years of playing a marauder, I have more fingers on one hand than the amount of times people have just left me off the hook if they were remotely competant. Useful? Yes? A DCD, no.

 

Lets take your average length WZ for example. So let's say it lasts 8 minutes and 45 seconds.

 

Undying Rage uptime - 8 seconds total

Saberward uptime - 24 seconds total

Cloak of pain uptime [assuming it isnt refreshed which must be the assumption most of the time people are smart enough or they kite you or CC you]] 40- seconds

 

DCD Uptime - 1 minute and 12 seconds out of 8minutes and 45 seconds which means you are without an active DCD of any kind for 7 minutes and 33 seconds out of 8 minutes and 45 seconds.

 

So for those 7 minites and 33 seconds, you have no way of mitgating any incoming damage and you can't heal at all.

 

That minute and 12 seconds is totally doable, but if you don't have a healer around, especially during most of the time [7 minutes and 33 seconds] you have nothing but you face to put in the way/mitgate damage.

 

The DCDs are fantastic. The 7 minutes and 33 seconds with no heals whatsoever are totally not fantastic, and the often hurt very much.

 

Even with Cloak of Pain, you are still taking bucketloads of damage. So for example instead of taking 28k from the heatseerker missle, you will take 26 k in damage, I don't know anyone who would claim either one of those amounts of damage is anything short of huge for a hit.

 

Fury is strong, Carnage is garbage and I play Carnage and have played Carnage for the last 6 years straight, never taken a break from the game, it is without question the worst is has ever been by far. Anyone who thinks it's better now than it was pre-5.6, thinks that because they absolutely had zero skill with carnage when it still needed it and they sucked at it.

 

Again, neither here nor there about the subject matter, im not even sure why the hell you brought it up in the first place as I don't recall stating anything about Marauders lack of heals or their DCDs.

 

 

 

I don't think Marauders should have heals, if they ever gave them to them I would leave the game over it. Pure DPS classes should not have heals, ergo Snipers shouldn't have heals and if you think that 700k in heals in WZ is appropriate for a pure DPS class, that's your damage.

 

Maras aren't dominating a thing, Fury is dominating. You see a lot of Carnage Marauders running around PVP and in HM/NiM Progression raid groups do you? I love Carnage, I will never play anything else, but it's terrible now, it's has some of the worst DPS in the entire game and is the WORST melee DPS spec in the game now in terms of damage cielings and average. Fury is Rank 2 out of 18, Carnage is Rank 15 out of 18. Think there might be a small difference there?

 

Heals, are not defensive measures, they are recuperative measures, anyone who would take the stance that heals don't matter they aren't important and that the specs that dominate aren't dominating because of thier rediculpous amounts of heals as DPS is not someone who's opinion matters as far as I am concerned. Heals are what you use when you have been mauled in a fight but are still handing on, something Marauders cannot do for themselves and they are the only ones that can't do it and everyone they are fighting can. I have no problem with having no heals. Does it suck at times? yes, too bad, thats how it should be for a pure DPS class and they should have the highest DPS because of it. Not interested in arguing the merits of that, I don't care what your opinion on that score is, you are entitled to it if you disagree, that's your right to hold it, as is mine, and nothing you could say would change my mind.

 

My only point here, is that DPS aren't just doing some healing, I have no problem with them having some healing, but it isn't some healing its rediculous amounts of healing as you play Operative is memory serves I'm not suprised that you would take offense to my position because they are some of the worst offenders of healing on a DPS. At least they have the decency to have to choose between using a GCD to heal or damage and I can respect that, at least that's something that makes it more reasonable for a DPS, healing and damaging at the same time, isn't.

 

 

 

I don't have heals, I don't have off heals, I can't guard, I can't taunt, I can't cleanse, I don't have perma-stealth, I only have one life, and ohh yeah, I can't raise people from the friggen dead in combat [which was awfully nice of the Gods to lend that portion of their divinity to some small group of mortals]. And yet, somehow, I have always managed to do good DPS without any of those things, so, I'm pretty sure it can work.

 

One more thing. I think you would agree that both DCDs and Healing both play into to the overall survivability of a class/spec. Healing restores lost health, DCDs mitigate incoming damage. Yeah, there are some DCDs that include both, and that's why everyone and their mother is screaming that those DCDS are OP. Perhaps you may think a DCD that grants invulnerability, reflect, and heals all at the same time is appropriate. I surely don't. Opinions.

 

I have no heals but I do have DCDs. So here is my question for you than. Is there a spec that you are aware of that has heals but has no DCDs at all? I'm pretty sure I know what your answer is going to be and I don't want to speak for you, but because I know you are a very good player, I feel supremely confident that your answer to that question would be no, there is no spec in the game, that has heals but no DCDs. There is a spec that has DCDs but no heals. That means, half of the survivability equation, in one case out of 8 is missing half of that equation.

 

Buffs? I didn't ask for any. Heals, Im totally against Maras ever getting them for any reason. But please don't tell me that heals don't play a massive part in player survivability. I have far too much evidence that cannot support that all of which I would be more than happy to share with anyone who might wish to see what I am basing that on. I am going to include some examples to support my opinion on DPS doing too much healing IMO. Why DCDs ever came up in your response beggers the mind for me as I never said a word about that. DCDs and Heals are two seperate things, they do not function in the same manner, they are not intended for the same purpose, they have different reasons for being necessary but, at the same time, both EQUALLY play into the survivability equation.

 

Here are some examples as to why I feel DPS are doing way to much healing and why I think it's total BS that now Tanks and Healers gotta flit the bill for it when they are the ones that should be doing in the first place and now they will have their ability to enjoy playing their roles in PVP put on hold for varying amounts of time which will be greater than DPS. I only play DPS, I gain nothing for saying that.

 

 

Just click on the image to make it bigger. These are all from the last month or so on Star Forge.

 

https://ibb.co/hZLAEo

https://ibb.co/hJ8xuo

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https://ibb.co/eupgLT

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https://ibb.co/m8DVEo

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Why can tanks and healers deal damage if they're not damage dealers?

 

Class roles aren't absolute. Often you can do some of what another role can do, but much less effectively. That's just how the game is.

 

There is a difference between some and too much. When was the last time you saw a healer do alot of damage? Please provide screenshots as I have done to support that view.

 

As far as Skank Tanks are concerned, I totally agree with you, it's inappropriate. What I was referring to and I stated was 'real tanks'. I don't think skank tanks should even be possible at all.

 

Some healing on DPS is fine, I have no issue with that, but 700k, 800k, 900k', 1 mill +, thats' not small, that's not moderate , that's a **** ton of healing. If tanks and healers weren't going to be effected so negatively from the coming changes to PVP for simply being the role that they are, I wouldn't have even brought it up. I'd still think it was stupid as all hell, but after 5.x in PVP, many PVPers have become desensitized to stupid as all hell.

 

This is my opinion, feel free to hold a different one.

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I can picture mitigated damage as an instant heal of the same amount. As long as the hit does not kill me, this view works perfectly fine.

For dps-off-healing, it feels weak enough. Maybe focused defense or adrenaline rush are a bit outstanding, but they "only" heal myself.

Guard should be for tanks only, but i'm fine with taunts on dps specs.

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He's absolutely right.

 

I don't mind if you don't agree with that, that's your prerogative, but could you please stop with the 'git gud' stupidity, I mean, do you even have a personality of your own? Must everyone be a drone?

 

Make up your own insults at least please because quite honestly, I'm literally embarrassed for you.

 

Again, everyone is entitled to hold any opinions they like, no matter how utterly stupid and ridiculous those opinions may be, but please, return the 'git gud', 'L2P', 'MadCuzBad', 'Triggered', 'Autistic', 'uninstall', 's***ers','baddies''s to the hive mentality you got them from.

 

People who think that it makes sense for DPS to be able to heal up to 1 million + heals in a WZ are people who are so bad at the game that they need that amount of heals in order to not be able to even hit 1K.

 

Guards, Taunts, heals, Off-heals, Perma stealth, cleanses, and the ability to raise people from the friggen dead, have absolutely, positively not one single thing to do with doing damage.

 

Try playing a real DPS sometime, and by that I mean a Marauder because they are the only class that doesn't multi-role and than see how good your DPS is. [No disrespect is intended to Assassins and PTs, they are not big offenders in this regard but they do have off-tanking abilities [guard and taunt], but as stated they aren't big offenders and I respect them].

 

P.S. - Soa never said any one of those three words, not even one time.

 

 

Sorry, Dad.

 

I think you take me way too seriously on this video game forum . I rather enjoyed my bad joke. Perhaps, I should never say "cool" or "hey man" either? Also, I'm pretty sure Soa said that. I'll find a video for you, Grim.

 

The current situation, which I personally like, is that a each subclass has 3 specs. The subclass that has a tank specs get taunt and guard. The subclass that has heal spec, gets off-heals. It makes perfect sense to me. If you think the offhealing vs taunt/guard needs to be balanced a bit better, than that is a different discussion.

 

Two hours from now, some other newer player will come to the forums to complain about something else that they don't understand, without actually trying to figure out the hows and whys. (I have probably been guilty of it myself)

 

But by all means, let's remove taunts, off-heals, and guards from DPS classes. Let's dumb down the game.

Edited by Rion_Starkiller
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Sorry, Dad.

 

The current situation, which I personally like, is that a each subclass has 3 specs. The subclass that has a tank specs get taunt and guard. The subclass that has heal spec, gets off-heals. It makes perfect sense to me. If you think the offhealing vs taunt/guard needs to be balanced a bit better, than that is a different discussion.

 

 

The problem is of all those sub specs certain specs are vastly outperforming other specs at what its supposed to be for. Obvious Example is Fury. It out sustained dps anni/watchman. It also out bursts carnage, Add into the mix its cc immunity and all the utility it brings. The other two specs don't compare. Carnage should be higher in burst, while Anni should be higher in raw dps output. They are neither.

 

-Lecko

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The problem is of all those sub specs certain specs are vastly outperforming other specs at what its supposed to be for. Obvious Example is Fury. It out sustained dps anni/watchman. It also out bursts carnage, Add into the mix its cc immunity and all the utility it brings. The other two specs don't compare. Carnage should be higher in burst, while Anni should be higher in raw dps output. They are neither.

 

-Lecko

 

I'm not sure this is really relevant, considering it's about specs with offheals and off tank abilities. And sure Fury is overpowered at the moment, it doesn't outburst Carnage however. Just look at the top parses on parsely.

Devastating Blast beats Raging burst in max and average damage.

Gore beats Furious Strike in max and average damage.

Vicious throw does considerably more damage on Carnage than on Fury too, and Fury can only use it when a target is sub 30% or with Ruthless Agressor.

As for it's dps with Anni, it's more or less the same. Right now the top Anni parse is higher than the top Fury parse, while the Average Anni parse is lower than the average Fury parse. Either way I'd have to agree this is way too close.

 

I'm not saying Fury doesn't deserve a nerf, but it's not outbursting Carnage, Carnage is still very much on the top end of melee burst specs as far as burst is concerned.

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Sorry, Dad.

 

I think you take me way too seriously on this video game forum . I rather enjoyed my bad joke. Perhaps, I should never say "cool" or "hey man" either? Also, I'm pretty sure Soa said that. I'll find a video for you, Grim.

 

The current situation, which I personally like, is that a each subclass has 3 specs. The subclass that has a tank specs get taunt and guard. The subclass that has heal spec, gets off-heals. It makes perfect sense to me. If you think the offhealing vs taunt/guard needs to be balanced a bit better, than that is a different discussion.

 

Two hours from now, some other newer player will come to the forums to complain about something else that they don't understand, without actually trying to figure out the hows and whys. (I have probably been guilty of it myself)

 

But by all means, let's remove taunts, off-heals, and guards from DPS classes. Let's dumb down the game.

 

I thought your joke was funny too. Tbh I didn't read past Grim's first paragraph, he always writes posts so big that could often be said in 5-10 lines (and that huge answer to Syroman's post was absurd, and even though once again I didn't read it all, I didn't see ruthless agressor in the DCD list and all of it really started badly with "what do heals have to do with DCDs").

 

Anyway people complaining about other DPS classes having heals or taunt/guard are getting old (and have been for a few years now). Even though guard might be op in PVP (is it really? I'll let more avid PVPers than myself discuss that), it's a good thing different classes have different strengths. Classes are what makes this game fun.

 

On another note, the only two classes that don't have heals (outside of utilities) or guard are snipers/slingers and maras/sents, and they both are in a very good place both in PVP and PVE (top 3 DPS classes in both cases). So in the words of best poet in the galaxy, Dread Master Raptus: Noobness is a prison, let skill release you

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Anyway people complaining about other DPS classes having heals or taunt/guard are getting old (and have been for a few years now). Even though guard might be op in PVP (is it really? I'll let more avid PVPers than myself discuss that), it's a good thing different classes have different strengths. Classes are what makes this game fun.

 

Firstly taunts, they really aren't that OP in pvp. Definitely a useful tool in pvp but sadly the vast majority of players that I see in matches that are dps don't even taunt so this issue large isn't one. Now I main a marauder but I play all classes. I usually taunt on CD to help out my team and is especially useful when on a team without a tank.

 

 

DPS with guard isn't op either. Normal a dps that throws out a guard is because the other team is throwing out massive damage. In that situation most of the time that dps that throw out the guard will just get melted. Especially w/o a shield. I have many times. Its a huge risk throwing it out there.

 

Now With these I'm NOT talking about skank tanks. Just normal dps.

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You see a lot of Carnage Marauders running around PVP and in HM/NiM Progression raid groups do you?

Yes, even though it's not as OP as it was, they are still very popular in HM/NiM.

it's [sic] has some of the worst DPS in the entire game and is the WORST melee DPS spec in the game now in terms of damage cielings and average. Fury is Rank 2 out of 18, Carnage is Rank 15 out of 18.

Kinda true but also not at all. Your numbers seem slightly off. Also in an actual raid encounter, carnage is still in a decent place. It also performs pretty good in PVP if your group has some kind of cohesion.

P.S. - Soa never said any one of those three words, not even one time.

https://imgur.com/gallery/9nohQh4

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Idk why we're even entertaining this thread beyond one page (I mean seriously, we're complaining about medpacs, that thing that EVERYONE has millions of?) but here I go anyway.

 

When 5.0 notes were released, I thought it was absurd that DPS specs of tank classes could guard now. But I reserved judgement till I saw it live (a concept, I know), and found that I, as a mainly tank player, did not see any harm in this guard change. I'm really not about to explain why it isn't "overpowered" for a dps spec to be able to throw out a guard in PvP because if you understand how guard works and the dynamic of PvP, you know the same thing I do.

 

As for offheals, the vast majority of classes that can "actively heal" in a DPS spec primarily do it in very niche situations such as "I am LOW and must HEAL", in which case you'll notice players would much rather run away for several seconds bordering on a couple minutes, to the peril of objectives of course, rather than spend a bit of time in the respawn because death is the worst possible thing imaginable. Another, far less common, situation is "My teammate is LOW!" in which case they throw a dark heal or kolto infusion on them only to watch them die anyway because, newsflash, DPS' heals aren't as strong as you think! :eek:

 

TL;DR This is a nonissue and is one of millions of complaints on this forum made by players who don't know how to counter these simple obstacles to their "I wanna smash my big number buttons and win" PvP philosophy. Seriously, hop on your sorcerer, spec Lightning, run into the warzone and spam heal. Record it and send it to me so I can see how dominate you really are.

Edited by BishopSMASH
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