in a nutshell, it ignores the fact that some dcd's are much better than others.

 

recently bioware described the methodology and thought process for how they plan to balance classes. in my opinion, this plan has a major flaw in it, because it makes balancing pvp almost impossible. essentially, they are lumping ranged dps burst together into one class and sustained ranged dps into another. melee get similar treatment, and it appears that healers are considered all the same. this might work for pve, (i have some reservations about that, but am willing to wait and see), but it is a disaster for pvp.

 

think about this: a lot of the qq over the last few months has been about mercs, but as many others have said since the announced nerf (after slapping themselves in the forehead), this is not going to make it better. on the contrary, this method of "balancing" is going to make it worse, and for more classes. right now, the only reason to choose a sniper over a merc is that the sniper does better dps, until he dies. consider that if a mara is not going to do more damage than a jugg, and a jugg is still much harder to kill, why would anyone play a mara? this is not going to fix the fotm problem, it is going to exacerbate it, because it will mean that each of the melee and ranged groups only have one choice that is obviously better than the others. do you want to see more mercs? because this is how you get more mercs. the situation with healers is a little more murky because sorc healers were overperfoming both in the quantity of heals and having better mobility/defensives, but the same principle applies. a merc healer has the same dcd's as a dps, but they are all on short duration and he is not melting your face off while using them, so if you just stay on him he will die, while an op is easily rooted to death. a sorc, on the other hand, is almost impossible to pin down, as he runs away throwing heals over his shoulder. the nerf to sorc heals was justified based on the fact that they output so much more, but as with the other announced nerfs, it does nothing to address how hard they are to actually kill in a pvp match.

 

any balancing plan that does not take into account the survivability of the class due to dcd's and escapes,( the amount of time it takes to kill that class), is just going to make the fotm problem even worse. damage/heals output needs to be normalized against ttk and the effectiveness of the different types of dcd. how much damage was absorbed/reflected/defended against makes a huge difference between the classes in pvp, but it does not look like bioware is even taking that into consideration with the announced plans. i don't know if bioware tracks ttk for individual classes in pvp, but without that information being factored into the balance with how much damage they do, i think that this effort is doomed to failure. i am tempted to say that the amount of heals a dps class puts out on themselves should be counted the same as damage, but the problem with that is that (depending on how the heals are generated) it makes classes like sorcs, that are fine in regs, not viable in ranked where it is all over and done in three minutes.

 

i love this game. god help me, even with all of its flaws, i do. with the exception of a few months when i walked away in disgust, i have been playing since launch. for those to whom such things matter, i am manhunter, multiple elite warlords, season ranked, blah blah blah. over the years running with <psy-ops>, before they went defunct, i got 100% operations achievements. (anyone with an open hm tyth slot pm me i still need that one). point is, i have been playing this game for a long time at every level and done just about everything it offers. i think i know what i am talking about, and balance in pvp has been a problem since day one, precisely because ttk in pvp has never been taken into account when balancing the classes. it honestly feels like these kind of decisions are based around seat of the pants feel and who *****es the most for/against on the forums. bioware has made a big deal about how much better their communications with the player base is now vs. then, and it does seem to be true. i see a lot more yellow than ever before. i would like to ask, how is this kind of thing factored into the decision making during balance discussions? becuase right now, it doesn't seem like it is at all.

According to the "optimal stats" mercs have the lowest heals, Operatives have the highest, and Sorcs are in the middle. Sorc heals got nerfed with less "potential" than Ops. knowing this, things look bad for Op heals, since it seems they're going by the HPS target and not what it takes to actually reach that target on each class. Op's have the highest potential but also one of the hardest classes to get there. sorcs don't have as high, but they are easier to play to that potential. mercs...... they're just at the bottom, lol.

The way they are balancing is good for only one case, 3+ minutes static fights without target switching aka basic PvE boss fights.

 

For PvP, they need to focus on burst damage, DCD, mobility, ramp times, ...

RE:

Great question! The most important thing you can ever put in feedback is why. Saying that you do or don't like something is helpful, telling us why is invaluable. This way when I am passing feedback on to the team I can highlight not only just sentiment (positive or negative) but also give supporting context for that feeling.

 

-eric

 

While the posts of the combat team are reasonable, two points:

- How that did not happened before 5.0? If that methodology existed then ->

- What is your response after 5 months of QQ for merc OP? What have you been doing for 5 months?

Where do we post the WHY? I can tell you in great detail exactly WHY

With so many gap closers, ranged isn't that much of an advantage TBH. - Combined with insane CC - you're lucky if you can get 2 GCD's worth of rotation off before someone's in your face.

 

OTOH as a melee, you gen get to that pesky GS or sniper within a second or two - quicker if you cc them and leap, pull or w/e.

 

- but back on topic, basic balance should mean that a DPS and heals should keep pace, if they're on their game. - And the first mistake should lose the advantage. - However there are probably 50 other factors involved.

 

However, some abilities don't match. - A HoT should match a DoT, a channel heal should equal a channel damage.... An AoE should match a Heal AoE. A 2-stack heal should match a 2-stack damage. Tanks should DPS as much as they can mitigate.

 

A heal to full should be counter-able with a DPS to Zero. - But somehow it doesn't?

Edited June 26, 2017 by Storm-Cutter

With so many gap closers, ranged isn't that much of an advantage TBH. - Combined with insane CC - you're lucky if you can get 2 GCD's worth of rotation off before someone's in your face.

 

OTOH as a melee, you gen get to that pesky GS or sniper within a second or two - quicker if you cc them and leap, pull or w/e.

 

- but back on topic, basic balance should mean that a DPS and heals should keep pace, if they're on their game. - And the first mistake should lose the advantage. - However there are probably 50 other factors involved.

 

However, some abilities don't match. - A HoT should match a DoT, a channel heal should equal a channel damage.... An AoE should match a Heal AoE. A 2-stack heal should match a 2-stack damage. Tanks should DPS as much as they can mitigate.

 

A heal to full should be counter-able with a DPS to Zero. - But somehow it doesn't?

 

I think you misunderstand the actual advantage you get from being a ranged class.

It's not that you can DPS your target without that target reaching you. If that would be the case melee DPS would have to have the output strength to make up for lost uptime.

And that would mean melee doing much.. much more damage than ranged than we do now.

 

 

No. The point is that as a ranged, you don't have to be where the action is unless that action focusses on you.

 

You don't get affected by splash CC. You laugh at Sorc bubbles, Operative Flash Bangs, Warrior Fears, DoTspread, random AoE of any kind and to a degree, knockbacks. You don't have to care about any of that ****.

 

As a melee, I have no choice but to be in someones face and that means I often get affected by CC that wasn't even meant for me in the first place. Much more than any ranged ever will. And that, is your ranged advantage.

And you may DEFINITELY be disadvantaged elsewhere for that.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Evolixe

With so many gap closers, ranged isn't that much of an advantage TBH. - Combined with insane CC - you're lucky if you can get 2 GCD's worth of rotation off before someone's in your face.

 

OTOH as a melee, you gen get to that pesky GS or sniper within a second or two - quicker if you cc them and leap, pull or w/e.

 

something i have learned is that in the current meta this is very much situational. my sniper is attacked more often than my sorc, and depending on the class and spec, it can be difficult to shake them off. my merc however, is usually left alone until everybody else is dead. players are not stupid, and it is obvious why they are flocking to mercs as fotm and why they have become the lowest class in priority. my main concern, and the reason for my post is that bioware does not seem to address this at all in their description of balancing plans. on the contrary, if they follow through with what they have detailed, it will make the fotm problem worse.

With so many gap closers, ranged isn't that much of an advantage TBH. - Combined with insane CC - you're lucky if you can get 2 GCD's worth of rotation off before someone's in your face.

 

OTOH as a melee, you gen get to that pesky GS or sniper within a second or two - quicker if you cc them and leap, pull or w/e.

 

 

You do know melee can't leap to Snipers and that snipers have annoying amounts of CC immunity right?

 

The only snipers that melee don't have a hard time with uptime and are able to stay on them for more than 2 seconds are the snipers that let them.

 

A sniper, especially engineering, has a counter to almost anything most melee can do. Furthermore, the only Snipers that most melee can defeat in WZs are snipers that don't have a clue what they are doing. It's relatively easy to figure out of they know what they are doing or not. If you are not punted, rooted repeatedly, rolled away from, blinded, hardstuned, not slowed, are able to use a CC on, than they don't know what they are doing.

 

It's even easier to figure out if an Engineering Snipers knows what they are doing or not. If you are not under the effects of Plasma probe while trying to engage them 100% of the time, they don't know what they are doing.

 

If having an attack range of 31' more than any melee could have, if being able to attack people that cannot attack you back, if being a supposed 'pure DPS class' with self healing and defenses like a tank, if having a CC kit that could choke a horse while at the same time being immune to CC is not an major advantage over melee, I think one of us is confused about the definition of the word advantage. Try playing a melee class that can't heal one blessed point of damage, while being in WZs with Mercs who have heals like healers and have 3 lives, and snipers blowing you face off from 5 blocks away while you are fighting Joe Jugg and can attack people at a range that no gap class could reach, even if they could leap to snipers which they can't out of hand.

 

If anyone of any class gets 2 GCD's worth of rotation off in a WZ before someones in their face [in the case of melee, getting shot at from 5 blocks away is "in your face"] they are lucky.

 

If a Sniper is having a hard time with melee , a class that has obscene control over melee, they're doing something very very wrong.

Edited June 26, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

I think there a few inherent problems. The way certain classes attain that target dps or hps is very different. If you treat them all the same that is like saying in a quarter mile race, a motorcycle and a car ought to be the same. But the motorcycle is faster off the start so we will reduce it's overall speed. You aren't making it any better, just lowering the bar. I am of the mind that when a class such as the sniper can be in cover and so cannot be jumped/dashed too, they also have a slow, a root, cannot be stunned, cannot be interrupted, have great dmg mit, have a good self heal. That is too much. Other classes need to be brought up to that or a better option would be to lower classes. I think the deception Assassin is the best example. The self heal is 15%, it helps with saber charges, when those charges are triggered it heals for 2%. That is a nice boost but not a safety net. I can't just pop that and be back to 75%.

 

The same can be said for dcd's, When you have a reflect, an absorb and kiting abilities and lots of heals from those abilities and you can put out some of the best dps you are a little too much of everything. Again the Assassin is a great aspect of that. You get shroud which is 200% against force and tech (melee is not reduced at all folks) for 3 or 5 seconds. You also get a 12 second, 50% shield. That is majorly underwhelming to an op or a merc or jugg or mara where you take zero dmg period for a certain amount of time. But because through entropic defenses you get a pretty constant 9% dmg reduction it helps with taking some hits.

 

The problem with the merc and sniper as I see it, is that they are some of the highest parsing specs. They have so many good dcd's that by the time they rotate through them, they use roots, slows, and stuns; and they kite you, their dcd's are back off cd again and you have no hope. With the Assassin, you melee when force shroud comes up or you kite them, when the purple shield comes up (the name escapes me) you still can dps and stun (unless utility is taken). And that is at a max, 17 seconds where you have reduced dmg to them.. no healing has taken place and you have only done 50% (at the lowest) dmg to them.

 

With that being said. Some might say that you need to pick the ulities to make your dcd's better. The only issue is you need the faster interrupts, you need the dmg redux in stun, you need speed increases to not get kited as easily, and you need to remove slows and roots for that same reason as before. IF you sacrifice those utilities to get better defensives people will just kite you and wont take as much dmg, yes, but you also wont be able to deal dmg while having that advantage.

With so many gap closers, ranged isn't that much of an advantage TBH. - Combined with insane CC - you're lucky if you can get 2 GCD's worth of rotation off before someone's in your face.

 

OTOH as a melee, you gen get to that pesky GS or sniper within a second or two - quicker if you cc them and leap, pull or w/e.

 

- but back on topic, basic balance should mean that a DPS and heals should keep pace, if they're on their game. - And the first mistake should lose the advantage. - However there are probably 50 other factors involved.

 

However, some abilities don't match. - A HoT should match a DoT, a channel heal should equal a channel damage.... An AoE should match a Heal AoE. A 2-stack heal should match a 2-stack damage. Tanks should DPS as much as they can mitigate.

 

A heal to full should be counter-able with a DPS to Zero. - But somehow it doesn't?

 

Wrong tanks shouldn't DPS at all! They should be a support class not a hybrid it just gums up the works!

So glad to hear that other people get it! Until the Devs take a serious look at utilities/DCDs PvP is doomed to its current state, no matter how you fine-tune the theoretical DPS.

 

Oh, and buff VGs/PTs.

Oh, and buff VGs/PTs.

 

only if they nerf ops