OK so I am looking to do a Taning/DPS hybrid build for my Shadow. I am a PVE-er, and I want to utilize my stealth abilities so I plan to go Infiltration as the DPS part. Does anyone have advice for me about how far up the Infiltration tree I should go before I start working on Kinetic Combat? I've looked for some answers but so far have not been able to find any.

I am a PVE-er

 

Hybrids don't work for PvE. Your survivability will be mediocre and your damage will be terrible. You're better off just going pure tank or pure DPS for PvE.

Hybrids don't work for PvE. Your survivability will be mediocre and your damage will be terrible. You're better off just going pure tank or pure DPS for PvE.

 

So why do they work in PVP?

So why do they work in PVP?

 

Hybrids can work in PvP because, in PvP, the additional utility and combination of decent damage with decent survivability (without either being particularly amazing) are actually useful. PvE is all about specialization: as a tank, you need to be able to take a lot of hits, but your damage isn't really all that important (beyond the ability to maintain threat); as a DPS, you need to be able to dish out a crapton of damage, but your survivability isn't really important (beyond not dying to unavoidable damage). PvP effectiveness can run the gamut between specialization and generalization, but I wouldn't recommend most of the hybrid specs you end up seeing out there. Pretty much the only ones that are useful are the 24/0/17 (for instant Force-Lift) and the 27/3/11 (for FiB as a ranged attack and Infiltration Tactics as solid PvP useful hit). In PvE, the advantages of those specs aren't really present: Infiltration Tactics on a tank is pretty much wasted, Force Lift isn't a real CC on a Shadow, FiB without DoTs is just a ranged attack that doesn't really make up for losing Slow Time, which bolsters your threat generation (since it's on a low CD, has good damage, and is high threat), mitigation (because of the 5% dam debuff), and healing (since it generates roughly half of your HS stacks).

 

PvP and PvE are completely different games. Just because a spec works in one has no relationship on that spec working in the other (just look at many of the PvP players that head into PvE with their PvP spec and insist that they're doing amazing damage because they can put out decent number in warzones).

Hybrids don't work for PvE. Your survivability will be mediocre and your damage will be terrible. You're better off just going pure tank or pure DPS for PvE.

 

This is just not true. Maybe for Nightmare modes I guess. But I've run just about all content SM and HM in hybrid build and never had any problem carrying my weight. Hybrid can tank all HM FP's if you're appropriately geared (27/0/14 Hybrid) and in other versions of the kinetic hybrid I have finished SM and HM Ops with average DPS of 1100-1300 and spike DPS of 1600+. On HM KP I can easily sustain enough DPS to carry my weight. Admittedly haven't tried HM EC or TFB in the builds yet, because I am primarily a PvP player.

Hybrid can tank all HM FP's if you're appropriately geared (27/0/14 Hybrid)

 

If by "appropriately geared" you mean "drastically overgeared". A hybrid isn't going to be an effective DPS or effective tank unless you're so greatly overgeared that spec doesn't matter. I could run as DPS on my Shadow tank for HM FPs and KP/EV but that doesn't mean it's a good spec for doing so. If you're running PvE as a hybrid, you're pretty much insisting that the people you run with carry you because you won't tank as well as a pure tank (including threat generation and DPS) or DPS as well as a pure DPS.

I guess we have different definitions of being carried and 'good' spec. It's good enough to do your job at the level you need to do. None of the content requires that much in terms of actual output, most of the tough fights are coordination checks, not stat checks.

I guess we have different definitions of being carried and 'good' spec. It's good enough to do your job at the level you need to do. None of the content requires that much in terms of actual output, most of the tough fights are coordination checks, not stat checks.

 

When it comes to level 50, Kit is absolutely correct. You have a role to fill and going halfway up 2 trees with different purposes will make you unable to adequately do either one. jm, you reference content that is nearly a year old and was not at all challenging when it was new; any decent guild could clear both EV and KP in about 2 hours total even back then. Take a quick look at HM TFB if you go in with squishy tanks and DPS pulling 1100-1200. On Writhing Horror the worse your DPS, the more damage the tank takes as his debuff stacks up and you'd be hard pressed to survive the burn phase at the end. If your DPS is too low on Dread Guards, you'll get 2 of the AoE lightnings on phase 1 and probably hit enrage. Also, squishy tanks will die during phase 3 due to not being able to be healed while still taking damage. If you can't get Operator IX's Data Cores down in time, you'll be overwhelmed by hard hitting adds and never even see phase 2. Kephiss and TFB are more of the same.

 

That being said, I assume from the OPs signature that he is still leveling his Shadow, and that is a different ballgame from what happens at level 50. It's more like PvP in that, as a melee class, you'll be taking the brunt of the damage from whatever you're fighting. It's not necessarily bad to take a mix of offensive and defensive talents in this situation, especially on something like a Shadow which is lightly armored. The problem with doing this on a Shadow specifically is that in order to get the full benefit of any tree, you really have to be using the associated Technique. I suppose that following the hybrid PvP build would not be terrible in this case, but probably still worse than going straight tank or straight DPS.

We once had an Infil spec shadow tank NiM KP in tank stance and full tank gear, but he was also our other tank in progression content and knew how to tank, and also our healers are amazing. In general Kitru is absolutely correct, and really the only reason we even did it then was because outside of Jarg/Sorno and Fabricator you don't really need an off tank in KP.

 

 

If the argument is that hybrids work in HM flashpoints and SM Ops, then yeah sure but so what?

Sure, far enough. But I would say 'so what?', a huge number of players only care about doing SM because they just want to see the content. So even if it's true that in NiM and some HM ops a hybrid couldn't pull weight I'd say 'so what?'

 

Not everyone is a hardcore progression raider.

 

That being said, I'd be interested in seeing some hard numbers from somewhere on what the highest DPS requirement in the game is to beat an encounter. I would be really surprised if it was too high for a talented hybrid player to put out. The game just really doesn't have ANY super difficult encounters once you figure the mechanics out and have every body's role down pat as to what happens when.

 

I mean, I can't do them all, but I'm just some schlub. But this is what I hear other 'hardcore' players repeat over and over again.

As Kitru mentioned, end game PvE is all about specialization: especially if you want to be doing gear appropriate content. If you're running around in full Campaign or BH, spec isn't really important in a HM FP. Hell, those things have been soloed or 2 manned. Hell, I've tanked them almost naked on my Guardian (only belt and bracers for armour).

 

PvP Hybrids are usually interested in grabbing the Pull for positioning enemies and/or FiB for interrupting caps around/behind the node. Compared to Slow Time for PvE, it hits fewer targets, has a longer CD and doesn't apply debuffs or build HS stacks.

Endgame is not really my concern at the moment, as I'm quite a ways away from doing that. The original purpose of my question was to see if you can be a hybrid while leveling. I can always respec later, I know for endgame you need to focus on one tree.

 

But for now, I am curious about this because I only had points for the Infiltration tree yet I've been able to tank for my groups pretty effectively. Maybe part of this is because I spent so long leveling my Guardian tank, but I thought it would be nice to be able to fill whatever role a group needs me to fill (versatitlity).

The original purpose of my question was to see if you can be a hybrid while leveling.

 

The biggest problem with hybridization while leveling is that you end up delaying your access to the most substantial and important talents that make you truly effective. By going as a hybrid spec, you often end up losing out on the resource generation tools that make playing beyond the 20 levels enjoyable (One with the Force, Profundity, Sharpened Mind) rather than just constantly waiting for your Force bar to fill up again. If you do go for the resource regeneration tools right of the bat, you pay for your hybridization after that point because the low tier talents really don't make up for the same gains you'd get by just progressing along the same lines. The advantages of hybridization while leveling just aren't there: even if you want to be versatile, you're better off just going with a specific spec and switching out your stances and gear when you have to do something else (that is, if you don't have the field respec and aren't a sub so that respecing is free).

 

But for now, I am curious about this because I only had points for the Infiltration tree yet I've been able to tank for my groups pretty effectively.

 

Depending on your level, spec and role can mean almost nothing. Until you hit your late 20s to early 30s, which role you choose to fill doesn't really mean much (though spec starts mattering more than it did before, insofar as getting access to specific abilities and talents that make certain abilities effective). If you're running as a tank in full Infiltration in your mid-30s or later, you're going to have a bad time of it because the full DPS spec'd people are going to simply rip aggro off of you and your general squishiness will make the healer's life hell.

 

Gauging the effectiveness of a spec or playstyle based upon how it performs before level 30 is going to provide you with some really skewed data. Below that level, the specs haven't really sufficiently differentiated so there isn't really much difference between one Shadow and the other and the content itself isn't really all that challenging (pretty much the only thing required to run group content before your early 30s is a healer; you can run without a tank with varying degrees of success until then). Beyond that level, your info isn't really going to fly since specialization starts to matter and the advantages of supposed versatility fall to the wayside (I've heard of some DPS running with a shield and some pieces of tank gear so that they can pick up a boss if the tank dies, though I've never really understood the logic behind that since, without the talents to tank effectively, you're really just praying that your reduced DPS will be enough to get threat and your barely improved survivability will be enough to make a difference in the healer's ability to keep you alive *if* the tank dies rather than simply trying to kill a target faster so that, if the tank does die, you have to spend less time without a tank).

Sure, far enough. But I would say 'so what?', a huge number of players only care about doing SM because they just want to see the content. So even if it's true that in NiM and some HM ops a hybrid couldn't pull weight I'd say 'so what?' This would waste the time/money of everyone else in the raid. The only way for a team with a hybrid shadow to be feasible in a raid is if the rest of the team is over geared or the healer is doing off DPS. Which is impossible in NiM and the more difficult HMs. Low DPS on a melee is asking to miss DPS benchmarks

 

Not everyone is a hardcore progression raider.

 

That being said, I'd be interested in seeing some hard numbers from somewhere on what the highest DPS requirement in the game is to beat an encounter Depends on the fight. Certain fights require melee to pull the DPS weight while ranged stafe/etc. Hybrid, even well geared I would imagine would be 600-800 depending on debuffs. That's 500-700 less than a melee should be pulling off. I would be really surprised if it was too high for a talented hybrid player to put out. talent has little to do with it. A commando spamming grav round will do more dps than a hybrid shadowThe game just really doesn't have ANY super difficult encounters once you figure the mechanics out and have every body's role down pat as to what happens when. that makes no sense, mechanics of some fights require high dps before timed benchmarks

 

I mean, I can't do them allthat seems to be the case, but I'm just some schlubself deprecation is a no no unless you are Louis CK. But this is what I hear other 'hardcore' players repeat over and over againweird statement to make, hardcore players you hang with talk about shadow hybrids in raids over and over... .

 

video game reality check

In remodded War Hero with PvE Hilt, PvE Armorings in the off-hand and the Belt/Bracers I typically parse 1200-1450 in HM Ops. Where are you pullin the 700-900 number from?

In remodded War Hero with PvE Hilt, PvE Armorings in the off-hand and the Belt/Bracers I typically parse 1200-1450 in HM Ops. Where are you pullin the 700-900 number from?

 

What hybrid build and in which HM (fights) did you hit 1450 with? Maybe more important is which fight did you hit 1200 on? Low numbers usually mean a tougher fight with a lot of movement. I'll need specifics to try it out. If/when we time I'll ask one of our Campaign/hazmat geared sins do the same raid with same spec and see what he gets.

 

My numbers are an estimate from hybrid parses. But let's not estimate, I shouldn't have done that. Let me know the specific build/operation the 1450 comes from. If those are dummy numbers than they aren't "raid" realistic, just prime rotation numbers.

You're right I suppose, Dummy numbers probably shouldn't count. I know I've spiked 1600-1650 in ops before on TRASH before but never a boss.

 

I'll try and do some HM Ops this week if I can and post the logs up and we'll see what I can hit. I swear I've seen 1400 in KP and EV HM. I've actually never run TFB HM, in EC HM on Toth and Zorn I think I remember parsing around 1000-1100. I'll try and get some hard numbers and we can see.

Dps/tank hybrid is so bad in PvE. LOOOOOL