Who says you will never achieve it? Maybe it will take you longer but so did getting to level 50. The hardcore players are what makes the game exciting, without it you would have (sorry have to say it, the buggy easy operations you have now). The hardcore players are the testers, they are the ones that will be the ones that will be able to find problems so that most of the players dont encounter any of those problems.

 

It also allows the devs to actually put in better content with less bugs. Its easier to work on one someone for a few people than it is for everyone. That might seem like its being selfish but its not. The devs would only have to worry about content for the elite hardcore players because everyone else still has content to do. When you have to make content for everyone then you dont have the time to do it right.

Did you actually read the OP's thread? Focus all content and resources on 5%of the playerbase. Blizz did that in Cata at launch and we know how that ended up. BW want to do this, fine but I wont stay around as there already plenty of niche games in the market place.

 

As to why I would never achieve the biggest and brightest shiny? because i no longer raid. Did it for 5 years, enjoyed the first few years but dont ever see myself going back to playing to peoples schedules.

 

 

 

Yes it should but the group rewards should always be higher than any solo reward.

Normally I would agree with you BUT having completed the Sith warriors class quest final boss I gotta say he was far harder than anything I have encountered in this game so far. It took me about 12 attempts to analyze his attacks, how & when to interrupt them. Overall 2 hrs of focused effort and all I got was a Darth title (pretty cool) and orange gloves, dissapointed witht the gloves given the degree of difficulty. Go to the class forums & see how many players had to import help from another player to kill Barras, to solo it was a fight worthy of great rewards.

 

On the flipside theres my Sorcerer who has one shot every class quest boss so far, easymode.

 

For the OP it doesnt just have to be to advance your chararter in say gear but they need to make sure everyone has something to do at all times so when they cant do the gear stuff they can still play and do something productive

Completely agree, but at least raiders have Operations & FP's even if they are buggy, at end game solo players have WZ & space combat. There is no pve end game content for solo players & no challenge. A little focus on this group would be nice before going back to focusing on hardcore raiders.

 

You really think so? The truth is if you tell the players that they have to do it to get it then guess what they would do it. Look at WoW (again sorry have to say it). In vanilla not many got into AQ 40 or naxx but more were in the MC/BWL range where they had to succeed to get their rewards. The subs grew to 6 million abouts. The TBS same thing (to start) you had to succeed to get the reward. Then it all happened. Lets have lower level bosses drop tokens so you can get gear and lets lift attunements. Some attunements are bad but some are needed to keep all content current. WoW messed this up making it so you can skip naxx ulduar and toc and get into IIC when you hit max level. All this did was make all the other content basically useless and forgotten.

Blizz messed up by ignoring the masses, why do you think next expac is Pandas? and why is there now a random raid finder for casual pugs? Blizz lost sight of it's casual/solo players and have paid the price for it. Think back to the days of Vanilla how many players were running around in T2? the rest were casuals /solo players even back then when there were 6 million subs hardcore raiders were still a minority but the holy trinity was the games design. The carrot on a stick has to be applied to every player to get them to continue subbing, if you only apply it to 5% of the playerbase then you end up with 10% subscriptions.

 

You want everyone playing. You kick out all the hardcore now then guess what a new set of hardcore will appear and they will leave and then sooner or later you wont have anyone. Hate to say it but in an MMO you need the rick poor and middle class.

Actually truth be known if all hardcore players left the game it might give devs the opportunity to break away from the trinity system and try something new. There would be a loss of subs but thats going to happen anyway if the content doesnt get harder so i dont see many of you staying.

 

For me personally i'm happy if the game caters to everybodies needs, but please dont excuse the rubbish OP said about increasing difficulty to increase rewards to dangle in front of casuals to get them to raid. That is utter horse manure, players will raid if they want to or not and no amount of egotistical epeening will convince them otherwise

 

Forgot what else I was going to add but if they did this they would actually get more players. O I remeber what I was going to add. Stop copying everything wow does. Take some on the good things but make it its own game and not wowws (WoW with sabers).

Absolutely agree, devs need to break out and make this their game and not just another copy of a successfull game that has had it's day.

Edited February 20, 2012 by NoxiousAlby

The casuals want pets, achievements, playing the auction house and all that other stuff that I have no interest in. It's fluff, and it seems like a lot of it is fast and cheap to crank out. Start dumping that crap in, get more casuals to stay/play and spend the money on some decent fights.

 

I am causual even though I can play for 12hrs a day if i wanted to because I no longer raid (5 years was enough)

 

I'm not the least bit interested in pets, achievements, or other fluff. I still play for character progression, thats what it's all about. No progression without raiding then no reason to play

Edited February 20, 2012 by NoxiousAlby

 

I'm not the least bit interested in pets, achievements, or other fluff. I still play for character progression, thats what it's all about. No progression without raiding then no reason to play

 

This times a million.

 

Every MMO I ever quit after any character investment was because I was forced to choose between raiding or abandoning endgame character progression. I've been on the raiding treadmill and it's boring as hell to me. If I cannot continue to progress my characters at endgame without being forced onto this treadmill, I'm gone.

 

Some people like raiding, and I've no problem with it being a method of PvE endgame progression.

 

I have a huge problem with it being the only one.

its not You who should be telling Bioware what to do. They should know that by now. Just the fact that ppl are making these topics is clear evidence that BW has no idea what their community want and what the game should look like.

 

I believe Bioware should hire someone who will get a grip on all the MMO aspects of the game. They did a great job on getting the story element right, companion element right (basically things they have had experience with), etc.

 

However, it is pretty obvious they wanted to challenge themselves and prove that they can create a successful (as in as good as WoW) MMO with just the right amount of money.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that. You need people with years of experience in MMO to do that. The major flaws of the game that hit me the most are:

 

1) The game engine needs to be re-written (I know - an abstract idea but they _should_ do it). The performance on high-end systems is crap. I heard how it is not optimized for modern processors etc. I am no expert but I certainly can feel the clunkiness. Solution: Start working on a completely new engine so the next expansion for the game has a perfect one.

 

2) Default UI - they should just copy the basic concepts from WoW and Rift (not only part of them which they like, all of them). Changes are coming in 1.2 but seeing the way how they dealt with cooldown animations (screwed it, tried to repair after forum outrage, screwed again, tried to repair again and finally gave options to choose whatever people like) proves that they have absolutely no experience with such a basic issue as adapting UI to an MMO genre. Solution: hire new UI designer with excellent experience in MMO who will introduce all feauters that the game needs (/roll, target of target, fully customizable keybins, combat log, etc.).

 

3) Operations need to be fixed at launch. The amount of bugs we have now in one of the most important parts of the game is just unprofessional and simply embarrassing. The bosses seem dull and some of the are so "I have seen that before" (as in Soa and his transition phases are so copied from the LK fight).

Solution: hire hard core raiders from other games to design them for you, enable PTR character copying.

 

I play the game for the setting and the story and I think they are great. I have no intentions to unsub until I'm done with some storylines. Maybe I'll continue as a casual then. But it just hurts to know that game could have been so much better. It is not an easy task but I believe if you still want to prove yourselves BW you still have the chance.

 

You know why WoW is so popular? Because it is easy to learn and hard to master. It caters to all types of players and casual players benefit from hardcore players contributing to the game design.

 

Your game is easy to learn (provided one is patient enough to live with the bugs) and easy to master.

 

And I agree. Taking into account how much money you had for development of this game you should have known all of these things yourselves.

 

Peace.

Edited February 20, 2012 by vandana_

I don't know, it motivated me.

 

My opinion is that it's fine to care what gear others are wearing but most people seem to put way too much emphasis on it. So what if some guy has an ultrasuperepic piece? He put the hours (effort) in and got it. If you don't think that's worth it, then just don't do it?

 

Agreeing with this.

YOu talk about f2p like its a bad thing, it can actually bring much more money than monthly sub model. Who knows, maybe this game is f2p in a year also.

 

F2play can work. Some people get turn off by the free to play model as well just keep that in mind and should only be use as a last resort.

 

If I continue to sub what advantage do I get over the massive amounts of freeloaders coming in to the game. how limited should f2play should be . what kind of things should be sold in the in game store?

 

Free2play is a whole another can of worms.

This times a million.

 

Every MMO I ever quit after any character investment was because I was forced to choose between raiding or abandoning endgame character progression. I've been on the raiding treadmill and it's boring as hell to me. If I cannot continue to progress my characters at endgame without being forced onto this treadmill, I'm gone.

 

Some people like raiding, and I've no problem with it being a method of PvE endgame progression.

 

I have a huge problem with it being the only one.

 

TheSwamper you said it better than I did, like you I raided for 5 years adhering to others schedules. Forget the fact it nearly cost me my marriage and family, i'll never go there again. Like you I would like an alternative pve endgame progression (like solo FP's & Op's with 3 companions) , but I wont wait forever. If we can get feedback from BW i'll pay & play while waiting, but if we hear nothing within the next month i'll move on.

Are you capable of making a post without getting things wrong or simply generalizing? All casuals are like that huh? Not likely. Btw, it's been a while since you've told people that they have no right to post on the forum if they like the game.

 

The people that I am referring too know exactly who they are and they are on the forums.

 

When have I ever told someone they cannot post on the forums? Dont tell me you are making things up to make it look like a certain way when its not.

 

Have to add that to my deffinition

 

6. Makes up storys that has nothing to do with the topic in an effort to discredit what other people say.

Did you actually read the OP's thread? Focus all content and resources on 5%of the playerbase. Blizz did that in Cata at launch and we know how that ended up. BW want to do this, fine but I wont stay around as there already plenty of niche games in the market place.

 

As to why I would never achieve the biggest and brightest shiny? because i no longer raid. Did it for 5 years, enjoyed the first few years but dont ever see myself going back to playing to peoples schedules.

 

Think about it. Why make new content for casuals if they have not finished all the content they have already? If they want to continue the class quests for each character then that is actually catering to the ones that have finished the class quests already so anyone who hasnt wont be able to do it. Would you be ok with that? making content for players who have finished their class quests only and not for the ones who have not? Its the same thing you make new content for the people who have finished it and then when other people finish the content already in the game for them they can do the new content.

 

 

Normally I would agree with you BUT having completed the Sith warriors class quest final boss I gotta say he was far harder than anything I have encountered in this game so far. It took me about 12 attempts to analyze his attacks, how & when to interrupt them. Overall 2 hrs of focused effort and all I got was a Darth title (pretty cool) and orange gloves, dissapointed witht the gloves given the degree of difficulty. Go to the class forums & see how many players had to import help from another player to kill Barras, to solo it was a fight worthy of great rewards.

 

On the flipside theres my Sorcerer who has one shot every class quest boss so far, easymode.

 

More double standards here. You want more of a reward for doing something harder but hardcore players dont deserve a reward for doing something harder. You said it, I should get a better reward for killing a hard sith warr boss then the easy boss that inquisitors get. Your right and I should get better rewards for killing nightmare mode than you doing normal mode.

 

Completely agree, but at least raiders have Operations & FP's even if they are buggy, at end game solo players have WZ & space combat. There is no pve end game content for solo players & no challenge. A little focus on this group would be nice before going back to focusing on hardcore raiders.

 

People who play solo should have content also. It should not be a major part of the game but they should have some end game content added so they can do something. It the empire vs the Republic its not every individual for himself.

 

Blizz messed up by ignoring the masses, why do you think next expac is Pandas? and why is there now a random raid finder for casual pugs? Blizz lost sight of it's casual/solo players and have paid the price for it. Think back to the days of Vanilla how many players were running around in T2? the rest were casuals /solo players even back then when there were 6 million subs hardcore raiders were still a minority but the holy trinity was the games design. The carrot on a stick has to be applied to every player to get them to continue subbing, if you only apply it to 5% of the playerbase then you end up with 10% subscriptions.

 

Blizz messed up by trying to make th ecame for players that the game was not designed for all in an effort to get more money. Without the everyone gets end game content easy mode that they have today they had about 9 million players. They make wrath and they gained about 1 million subs (have to look at the end of wrath). They tried to change it back to what it was before to keep everyone happy but the casuals wanted everything and didnt want to share the game (nerfs on hardmodes). Now blizz realizes that they have lost the true wow player that made it popular and is just trying to keep the casuals since they know they are losing the hardcore player (here comes pandas).

 

So if the casual was the majority of WoW why did they keep playing and bying the game when it was what you called catered to the hardcore? You just that casuals will quit if this was the case but they didnt back then. The reason was is because they had something to do. Give someone something to do in a game and they will play it, give them nothing to do in the game and they will quit.

 

Actually truth be known if all hardcore players left the game it might give devs the opportunity to break away from the trinity system and try something new. There would be a loss of subs but thats going to happen anyway if the content doesnt get harder so i dont see many of you staying.

 

For me personally i'm happy if the game caters to everybodies needs, but please dont excuse the rubbish OP said about increasing difficulty to increase rewards to dangle in front of casuals to get them to raid. That is utter horse manure, players will raid if they want to or not and no amount of egotistical epeening will convince them otherwise

 

Will try to explain again. When the game starts everyone has something to do. The hardcore players will finish it first while the casuals will be (piking a random number) 60% done with the content. There is no reason to add content for the casuals now because they have not finished the content they already have. So you do it for the hardcore players so they have something to do. In no way am I saying casuals should have nothing to do, they should always have something to do just like the hardcore players

 

Absolutely agree, devs need to break out and make this their game and not just another copy of a successfull game that has had it's day.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Emeda

TheSwamper you said it better than I did, like you I raided for 5 years adhering to others schedules. Forget the fact it nearly cost me my marriage and family, i'll never go there again. Like you I would like an alternative pve endgame progression (like solo FP's & Op's with 3 companions) , but I wont wait forever. If we can get feedback from BW i'll pay & play while waiting, but if we hear nothing within the next month i'll move on.

 

Unfortunately, NoxiousAlby, I don't think you will hear anything from BW other than vague references to "looking in to", "researching", "soon", etc...

 

You may be like many others... moving on!

Think about it. Why make new content for casuals if they have not finished all the content they have already?

Just stopped here to answer this question, reason being because the grouped content created was never going to appeal to solo & some casual players. I think you will find that most casuals and solo players already have multiple characters, we are just filling in time following other class story lines at the moment. But as BW acknowledged themselves most of these players will quit (under lesson 4) once leveling alts loses it's appeal (for me that was about 4 weeks ago).

 

If they want to continue the class quests for each character then that is actually catering to the ones that have finished the class quests already so anyone who hasnt wont be able to do it. Would you be ok with that?

Continueing the class quest line as the only soloable pve content in the game wont provide enough of a grind to retain players. Looking at the speed I consume content I would imagine additional class quests would entertain me for hrs or days at the most.

 

What I have already proposed to BW was solo (+3 companions) versions of existing flashpoints. This material would keep players entertained for months, it's not a new concept and already being done in other games.

 

making content for players who have finished their class quests only and not for the ones who have not? Its the same thing you make new content for the people who have finished it and then when other people finish the content already in the game for them they can do the new content.

Not sure I follow here, are you trying to justify why BW should cater to hardcore raiders?

 

Your refering to the speed at which a player consumes content, but it is more than that. We are discussing the merits of providing content to a section of the playerbase, the question that needs to be asked "does a game supply content solely for the majority or minority of players?"

 

In a perfect world the answer should be "both" every section of the playerbase needs to be supported with character progression through grind (solo, casual, crafters, raiders, pvpers). For one group to put their hand up, in this case raiders, and say "we are the most important section of the community therefore BW you need to focus on our needs" is a bit rich in my opinion.

 

More double standards here. You want more of a reward for doing something harder but hardcore players dont deserve a reward for doing something harder. You said it, I should get a better reward for killing a hard sith warr boss then the easy boss that inquisitors get. Your right and I should get better rewards for killing nightmare mode than you doing normal mode.

Now your quoting me out of context while contriving a double standard that doesnt exist. My example to you was there is solo content that can be created both difficult and challenging as proven by my example.

 

Now you are saying more difficult content deserves greater rewards, I wont argue with that. As long as BW is capable of providing greater rewards for all sections of the community as a result of more challenging content thas fine. But again to say that only raiders deserve greater rewards for more challenging content will only cause even further divisions within the game and ultimately the loss of more subs. Why cant crafters who put in a greater amount of time & expense (which equals effort) learn greater schematics? the fail system we have currently is that in order to obtain bis schematics crafters must raid.

 

I still remember 1 month before the servers went live players were telling BW that forcing players to raid to earn bis schematics was a mistake. Now 3 months into the game BW are taking a new look at crafting. Dont wait for players to cancel their accounts before acting listen to the community

 

People who play solo should have content also. It should not be a major part of the game but they should have some end game content added so they can do something. It the empire vs the Republic its not every individual for himself.

How many posts are there on the forums with people complaining that no one wants to group? and why does X keep declining my invites when were on the same quest? and then there's people stating how there are so many unguilded players running around in this game. Swtor was touted as a solo players answer to MMO's years before it was released, it appeals to players in their 30's, 40's, & 50's who are less inclined to group or join a guild. As a result this game has a considerable following of solo players who want to be part of an MMO to be able to access WZ, GTN, or just chat with other players. Unlike raiders i'm not saying BW should focus on solo players to encourage other sections of the community to participate in our style of play (see the difference?). But I will say that solo players should receive equal amounts of content to grind on, the most frustrating part is the hard works already been done in terms of scripting. If Lotro can create solo versions of existing flashpoints then why cant BW? If I wasnt so over fantasy rpg i'd give Lotro a try

 

Blizz messed up by trying to make th ecame for players that the game was not designed for all in an effort to get more money. Without the everyone gets end game content easy mode that they have today they had about 9 million players. They make wrath and they gained about 1 million subs (have to look at the end of wrath). They tried to change it back to what it was before to keep everyone happy but the casuals wanted everything and didnt want to share the game (nerfs on hardmodes). Now blizz realizes that they have lost the true wow player that made it popular and is just trying to keep the casuals since they know they are losing the hardcore player (here comes pandas).

This here will always be nothing more than a differing of opinion but lets look at the facts. Subscriptions started falling within the first month of release, the most obvious answer was the difficulty (which I didnt mind by the way, was certainly challenging). Difficulty not just in terms of dungeons but the new ways of healing, even I no longer enjoyed healing on my druid as it went from fun to difficult. My only rl friend who played quit in the first month because of the changes made to paladins, he went from mashing 3 or 4 buttons to having to rely on procs and focus on many more buttons. To him that class (his main) was no longer fun to play. Everything about Cata was designed to make the game more difficult & challenging, so subs starting falling in the first month. Blizz's response was to nerf everything and make the game easier, end result was the players calling for challenge got angry and also started leaving. We now have both camps abandoning a game that they felt no longer catered to their needs.

 

For the record I left in the 6th month out of disgust, why? because I was told in order to get the tier helm and shoulders I HAD to raid. Forget the fact that I had run ZA & ZG over 500 times and begged for an alternative no matter how much effort was required. But no you want character progression so you MUST raid. This is a poor philosophy, just as BW is starting to learn "you must group" will also fail.

 

if the casual was the majority of WoW why did they keep playing and bying the game when it was what you called catered to the hardcore? You just that casuals will quit if this was the case but they didnt back then. The reason was is because they had something to do. Give someone something to do in a game and they will play it, give them nothing to do in the game and they will quit.

Because wow supplied some casuals with fluff, not everyone in interested in character progression (although I am). Collecting mounts, achievements, pets, and other fluff was enough to satisfy some casuals but not all.

 

Will try to explain again. When the game starts everyone has something to do. The hardcore players will finish it first while the casuals will be (piking a random number) 60% done with the content. There is no reason to add content for the casuals now because they have not finished the content they already have. So you do it for the hardcore players so they have something to do. In no way am I saying casuals should have nothing to do, they should always have something to do just like the hardcore players

Again you are assuming that all casuals dont play as much as hardcores, many casuals are ex raiders. We know how to grind and level for maximum effect, there are plenty of casuals in the game who would like to follow character progression on their 1st level 50 but theres no point as there is none. So instead we are following other class storylines but it's not what we would prefer to do. I have no problem with creating new content for players who need it but that goes for everyone. You can have your new raids next patch thats fine but at least give solo players some flashpoints to grind on with our companions at the moment we have nothing and yet raiders are already asking for more.

Edited February 21, 2012 by NoxiousAlby

Not even 1 Dev reply on this?

Great post Ramzes, a lot of good ideas. I've seen many new games come out and hardcores "beat the game" within the first couple of months. If we went to a game that's been around for a couple of years, it would certainly take longer and most have the post-max-level achievment-y kind of thing going on. Here, I don't see much by way of achievements (like getting all the datacrons), though the Legacy system seems to have potential.

 

I love the SW theme, am hopeful that it will continue to evolve. I think the biggest thing missing for end game is PVP content and variety. Great PVP can make up for a lot in new games, and has LOTS of room for improvement here.

 

I think thoughtful ideas and constructive feedback like yours is our best chance...

 

Dawnsy

 

p.s. Getting rid of "orbital stations" cant hurt either.....hint hint devs...

/yawn. Same old same old...cater to the people who grind content rather than those who enjoy the creative/imaginative/social aspects of games that were originally mostly about those things.

 

I wish you people would just go play FPS or RTS games and stop taking everything but the hyper competitive aspects out of MMOs, that is all you want anyway...meanwhile people who actually enjoy the content that costs so much time and money are forced to sit in hubs and queue for "hard" content because some people who feel the need to play conqueror can't do it IRL so they hide in a game so that they can play violent.

 

God this story is so old...

 

agreed. In my opinion the people are so intensely into MMO's are the exact same as the people who are intensely into FPS, the only difference is that MMO's reward time spent, and FPS/RTS reward skill (note I realize that games like CoD have started to move towards rewarding time as well). So really I think the reason that these people don't go play FPS/RTS is that they aren't very good at them. But they ARE very good at having a lot of time. As for the idea that the minority gives hope the majority by linking gear... this just isn't true. All it does is remind us that you get to play the game more than we do. Due to you being a kid, or independently wealthy, or without responsibility in some other way. At the best this makes us jealous, at the worst it makes us annoyed/pity you.

I love the game so far, but I was hoping it'd be a bit more open ended as SWG was pre-cu.

 

I would really LOVE to see guild cities as in SWG.

 

Character Transfer so I can get off my terrible server with 5 items in the auction house!

 

And I feel there aren't enough different abilities to reward your each and every new level, that helps differentiate player skills and strategies...

 

HELP!!!

I'm a hard working guild leader, always doing my part to help make this a great game =)