Alright so I figured I would make this thread, examining the Stormtrooper and perhaps debunk some things about them that people say. This is meant to shed some further light on them, expanding the view that they are more then just what they appear to be in the movies...so lets take a look see.

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1. Aim

 

Now this is probably one of the biggest things about Stormtroopers, that people rag them on about which is their piss poor aim in the movies. But here, lets take a look at a few scenes showing the opposite of their aim.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeW5fIAY88s&feature=player_detailpage#t=222s

 

Now yes, while it was at a very tight hallway spot they still killed the majority of the Rebel troopers there forcing the latter to retreat. Also yes, firing from the hip but even so they pretty much mopped the floor with the Rebels there.

 

Ok so now when they are dealing the the main characters however, yes they do have bad aim. But let me ask you this, when in any movie does the bad guy ever have any good aim against the main characters? Sure there, are some scenes in which the bad guy does hit said main characters but usually they miss a lot.

 

So now here is proof that Stormtroopers have good aim

 

- 9:46

 

You see the Stormtrooper take aim, and hit R2.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1XyAEj84Xg&feature=player_detailpage#t=114s - 1:58

 

Again, he aimed and hit Leia granted it wasn't a killing shot but it was wounding.

 

So folks, depending on the circumstances and plot. The bad guys will miss a lot, and hit only when needed against the main characters. Against anything else(Rebel Troopers) they kill effectively.

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2. Armor

 

Again another thing stormtroopers get a lot of flak for, that their armor is useless. Well....DUH, its useless because what do we have?

 

1. A Rebellion which has gotten their hands on modified, and armor penetrating blasters. A280 rifles, DH-17 blasters, DL44 heavy blasters, etc. The Rebellion has armor penetrating blasters, this is why the armor seems to be useless of course it is. Now as to the heroes using E-11's well....I mean I would hope the Empire, would supply their troops with a weapon that can penetrate armor otherwise they would be screwed.

 

2. Now I know someone is gonna bring up the Ewoks argument, now thats all fine and dandy but lets think for a moment on that. Armor can't protect from everything, its either one thing or the other most of the time...stormtrooper armor is for blasters that aren't quite as powerful as armor piercing ones, they also protect a stormtrooper from explosive shrapnel and extreme temperatures...however they can't protect against piercing objects such as a spear or arrowhead due to the armor isn't meant for such things. I mean, why would you have armor for that in a galaxy where theres blasters and lightsabers?

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Losing Battles

 

This I am rather confused on....for the most part, Stormtroopers have just steamrolled over the Rebels in their battles.

 

Tantive IV, don't really feel like I need to go into that, the stormtroopers just floored the Rebels there.

 

Battle of Hoth, ya sure they had heavy vehicle support but they also got into the base and more then likely wiped out any personal that was staying behind and fighting to cover those who had to escape.

 

Battle of Endor, believe it or not folks while the stormtroopers were having a difficult time with Ewoks you gotta remember that they were also facing Rebel specforce wilderness fighters too. But even then, if you watch while not stormtroopers they were winning with AT-ST support the battle turned around when Chewie hijacked one. Yes, yes they had those logs and rocks but they weren't used till after Chewie did the hijacking.

 

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Well there you go, and if you want to see Stormtroopers being good there are a few books out there that show them being so.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

This is a very important topic that needed to be addressed. You did a very fine job of addressing the main flaws of the Stormtroopers on screen and provided a very good argument in the stormies favor. Very well done and I agree with you completely.

 

One thing I would like to note is that most Stormtroopers were highly trained. The only soldiers better were the Imperial Shock Troops and the Dark troopers.

This is a very important topic that needed to be addressed. You did a very fine job of addressing the main flaws of the Stormtroopers on screen and provided a very good argument in the stormies favor. Very well done and I agree with you completely.

 

One thing I would like to note is that most Stormtroopers were highly trained. The only soldiers better were the Imperial Shock Troops and the Dark troopers.

 

Ya was also gonna go in the whole variants of other Stormtroopers, but the standard Stormtrooper seems to get the most flak out of them all.

Yea Wolf I agree 100% with you here. Stormtroopers only get a bad rap because of the movies and back when these movies came out we didn't have access to the internet or even most of the EU that could explain this stuff. So basically people saw the Stormtroopers for what they saw, bad shots, and history did the rest. Then to comfound this a lot of EU writers and videogames went on to write this "They suck at shooting" thing into their books and games. Which only made the problem worse.

Ya was also gonna go in the whole variants of other Stormtroopers, but the standard Stormtrooper seems to get the most flak out of them all.

 

Well, how many grunts do you know that can kill a main character? Did people expect the Stormies to kill of the main characters because of their superior training?

Another thing about Stormtroopers that you could address is the phasing out of Clones into training a primarily human military.

 

Edit: I personally approve of the explanation given in BF2 that the Kaminoans fought the Empire and created anti-clones...( and all the anti-clone weapon prototypes floating around after the Clone Wars) This influenced the Emperor to diversify his forces.

 

On a side note, people should remember that the fighting on Endor was at the backdoor of the installation and the rebels where supposedly on the retreat (if you believe your foes is pathetically weak and running, will you really risk chasing them around the forest with all your troops or defend your objective?). Thus the imperials likely didn't bring the full force of their presence on the planet to bear and in the end the commanders thought everything was fine and dandy (they were told by an Imperial Officer (rebels) that the battle was going well and to send some more guys) then *BOOM*.

 

An invasive force fighting a defensive war on enemy territory against under equipped locals using terrain to their advantage. Sound familiar?

Edited September 22, 2012 by StarSquirrel

Another thing about Stormtroopers that you could address is the phasing out of Clones into training a primarily human military.

 

Edit: I personally approve of the explanation given in BF2 that the Kaminoans fought the Empire and created anti-clones...( and all the anti-clone weapon prototypes floating around after the Clone Wars) This influenced the Emperor to diversify his forces.

 

On a side note, people should remember that the fighting on Endor was at the backdoor of the installation and the rebels where supposedly on the retreat (if you believe your foes is pathetically weak and running, will you really risk chasing them around the forest with all your troops or defend your objective?). Thus the imperials likely didn't bring the full force of their presence on the planet to bear and in the end the commanders thought everything was fine and dandy (they were told by an Imperial Officer (rebels) that the battle was going well and to send some more guys) then *BOOM*.

 

An invasive force fighting a defensive war on enemy territory against under equipped locals using terrain to their advantage. Sound familiar?

 

If Battlefront 2 is cannon they never phased out clones, they just started using dna other than only Jango's

If Battlefront 2 is cannon they never phased out clones, they just started using dna other than only Jango's

 

hmm, really? Been a while since I played. Well remove the BF2 reference and I leave you with the Anti-clone weapons developed by Separatist that could be resurrected forcing any smart leader to diversify his military to prevent widespread effective use of these weapons. I think Clones represented a small portion of the military but, c'mon , Han is in no way a clone and we see time and again that Imperial navy personnel are NEVER clones. So there had to be a time when the Emperor started to recruit humans (if nothing more than to swell the numbers of his military.)

 

Edit: wasn't cloning banned under the Empire, and the Kaminoan cloning facilities destroyed?

Edited September 22, 2012 by StarSquirrel

So folks, depending on the circumstances and plot. The bad guys will miss a lot, and hit only when needed against the main characters. Against anything else(Rebel Troopers) they kill effectively.

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A little psychology could also influence that: It is quite hard, even for soldiers, to fire at other humans. The less human the target looks, the easier it is.

 

When they fight the protagonists, they see their faces and see them as unique humans. The protagonists on the other hand shoot stormtrooper suits. On Tantive IV on the other hand, the stormtroopers shoot rebel uniforms, not humans.

 

(Yes, it works that way. When you can shoot "uniforms" instead of humans, you are far less reluctant. At least that's what I heard from a documentary about WW2.)

As far as I can get into it, due to my limited lore knowledge is this. One of the missions in BF2 you go to kamino because the clones there have rebeled and you wipe them out. The dialogue at the end says that after that the empire no longer used a single source for the DNA of the clones. I would suspect that all the troopers are still clones while the officers and tech staff are human recruits. I doubt pre programmed armies of super soldiers would be replaced by humans. Edited September 22, 2012 by Crawelc

great post

 

ater reading some of the books, it seems that the emperor is using his powers on the frontline troops too

 

both "buffing" them and making them do those suicidal frontal attacks, which do let ST look like

 

brainless cannonfodder

I've read varying things that explain that stormtroopers are elite and are recruited from the Imperial military and that most of the clone war vets (clones) act as CO's and training instructors and from time to time commandos. Training/leading the new Empire's shock troops. The imperial army/marines are made up of humans from across the empire and typically wear uniforms and armor like that of General Veers in tESB when he is in the AT-AT.

 

Imperial Troopers

 

General Veers

 

Veers in Imperial Army Combat uniform/armor

 

Storm Troopers actually seemed like they did pretty well in one on one fights with the rebels (tantive 4, Battle of Hoth) In the movies. They did quite well at the Battle of Endor before the ewoks came and cause chaos and confusion. Hell Even Leia, one of the heroes, got shot. Mind you this is all suppose to be a grand epic where heroics> reality (even fantastical reality ). I am sure the training and weapons/armor of the Imperial Storm-trooper Legions are quite adequate against most civilian and insurgencies. It took the alliance nearly 21 Years to take get rid of the empire and bring back the republic, and even then the empire was still around and never really died.

A great analysis indeed!

 

I would just like to point out, which was brought up, that the MOVIES had plot armor; i.e. the bad guys had to have sucked so the good could win in the end.

 

Outside of the movies, into the EU and beyond, Stormtroopers and their varients were feared for the most part. They actually hit their targets most of the time. Hell flash foward to Star Wars: Legacy you see a stormtrooper stab a sith in the back and another blasting the hell out of the same sith with his rifle.

if the movies had accurately portrayed elite soldiers like the storm troopers... then one would have shot and killed Han, Luke and Leia in the death star and the movie would have ended half way through and sucked...

 

as others have pointed out the reason they seem so sucky is because most of the time we see them they are fighting the "Heros" who have the plot defending them or some other plot point where they have to loose the fight... it was the same deal with the Gungans Vs the Battle droid....

 

storm troopers always get it bad in movies... watch some WW2 movies about the SS (the original storm troopers) and those elite soldiers get portrayed almost as bad as real life french army regulars... lol

Edited September 24, 2012 by Liquidacid

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeW5fIAY88s&feature=player_detailpage#t=222s

 

Now yes, while it was at a very tight hallway spot they still killed the majority of the Rebel troopers there forcing the latter to retreat. Also yes, firing from the hip but even so they pretty much mopped the floor with the Rebels there.

 

I see this scene brought up a lot, and it's a pretty bad example of good accuracy. Like you said, they were all just hip spraying into a tight hallway packed with rebels. Most of their shots missed. Hell, we see a trooper shooting into the ceiling at one point. Nothing impressive here at all.

Edited September 24, 2012 by billyboyjennings

I see this scene brought up a lot, and it's a pretty bad example of good accuracy. Like you said, they were all just hip spraying into a tight hallway packed with rebels. Most of their shots missed. Hell, we see a trooper shooting into the ceiling at one point. Nothing impressive here at all.

 

Yes have realized that, but even so they weren't defeated. But ya, the other videos show good accuracy.

One thing that's always bothered me about the Battle of Endor was the way that the teddies, oh, sorry, Ewoks, beat the Stormtroopers.

 

I'm not entirely sure on this, but wasn't the Troop of Stormtroopers on Endor 'Vader's Fist'? ie a highly elite unit?

 

They may not have been expecting the Ewoks to attack, and I can see the parallel with modern war theaters (under armed local fighters taking on the military elite), but I'd say it's like the SAS or Delta Force being surrounded by local fighters. You'd have expected them to put up more of a fight, especially with the hardware superiority they had.

Though I can't see the logic in sending in two legged walkers into a environment such as a forest... that's just asking for trouble.

One thing that's always bothered me about the Battle of Endor was the way that the teddies, oh, sorry, Ewoks, beat the Stormtroopers.

 

I'm not entirely sure on this, but wasn't the Troop of Stormtroopers on Endor 'Vader's Fist'? ie a highly elite unit?

 

They may not have been expecting the Ewoks to attack, and I can see the parallel with modern war theaters (under armed local fighters taking on the military elite), but I'd say it's like the SAS or Delta Force being surrounded by local fighters. You'd have expected them to put up more of a fight, especially with the hardware superiority they had.

Though I can't see the logic in sending in two legged walkers into a environment such as a forest... that's just asking for trouble.

 

The 501st is more like the Army rangers, a higher unit yes, but not on the caliber of Delta force. Shadow troopers would be delta force since many shadow troopers were pulled from the 501st. The republic commandos which in the latest book became Imperial Commandos are Delta force.

 

But yes, 501st losing to ewoks, never understood that.

One thing that's always bothered me about the Battle of Endor was the way that the teddies, oh, sorry, Ewoks, beat the Stormtroopers.

 

I'm not entirely sure on this, but wasn't the Troop of Stormtroopers on Endor 'Vader's Fist'? ie a highly elite unit?

 

They may not have been expecting the Ewoks to attack, and I can see the parallel with modern war theaters (under armed local fighters taking on the military elite), but I'd say it's like the SAS or Delta Force being surrounded by local fighters. You'd have expected them to put up more of a fight, especially with the hardware superiority they had.

Though I can't see the logic in sending in two legged walkers into a environment such as a forest... that's just asking for trouble.

 

Well they were winning, until Chewie hijacked an AT-ST. I mean sure, we saw a few scenes with stormtroopers getting rocks thrown at them and being stabbed with spears...but I don't think thats how the entire battle went on. Not to mention, they were also fighting Rebel specforce Wilderness fighters which are trained for extreme environmental conditions.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

Again I still agree with Wolf...but

 

Real World Explaination: Lucas didn't put that much thought into the Stormtroopers other than they look cool while wearing white. It's only after years later when he bridges the gap with Clonetroopers and he was "smart" enough to have them be clones of and also trained by "The Best Bounty Hunter in the Galaxy" is when they look and act like a force to be reckoned with, does the "Best Troops" Comment Palps made raise even more question. The creation of the 501st makes it worse because technically they are the Empire's best troops (Infantry Wise) and they all are supposedly clones of "The Best Bounty Hunter in the Galaxy."

 

Long Story Short If Lucas had intended for them to shoot straight he would have easily have had them shoot straight via special effects and scripting, he could have done that back then. Blasters aren't real so they have to put their shots in through editing. It wouldn't be that hard to do that. Ergo he didn't intend for them to have consistent aim in the movies.

 

It reminds me of a scene from Alone in the Dark by Uwe Boll where a character is shot and the bullet effect isn't even hitting the person....if you saw the Nostalgia Critic, Spoony, and Linkara Corssover review you'll know what I'm talking about.

Again I still agree with Wolf...but

 

Real World Explaination: Lucas didn't put that much thought into the Stormtroopers other than they look cool while wearing white. It's only after years later when he bridges the gap with Clonetroopers and he was "smart" enough to have them be clones of and also trained by "The Best Bounty Hunter in the Galaxy" is when they look and act like a force to be reckoned with, does the "Best Troops" Comment Palps made raise even more question. The creation of the 501st makes it worse because technically they are the Empire's best troops (Infantry Wise) and they all are supposedly clones of "The Best Bounty Hunter in the Galaxy."

 

Long Story Short If Lucas had intended for them to shoot straight he would have easily have had them shoot straight via special effects and scripting, he could have done that back then. Blasters aren't real so they have to put their shots in through editing. It wouldn't be that hard to do that. Ergo he didn't intend for them to have consistent aim in the movies.

 

It reminds me of a scene from Alone in the Dark by Uwe Boll where a character is shot and the bullet effect isn't even hitting the person....if you saw the Nostalgia Critic, Spoony, and Linkara Corssover review you'll know what I'm talking about.

 

Well you need to remember, clones age rapidly moreso then regular humans. So by the time of battle of endor, the clones must have been pushing into their 60s or perhaps even older, so their training and the like could have diminished over time. They were winning however with AT-ST support, the rebels nor the ewoks had any weapons to take those out with(yes yes, rocks and logs but those weren't used until after Chewie hijacked one.)

Edited September 25, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

Well you need to remember, clones age rapidly moreso then regular humans. So by the time of battle of endor, the clones must have been pushing into their 60s or perhaps even older, so their training and the like could have diminished over time. They were winning however with AT-ST support, the rebels nor the ewoks had any weapons to take those out with(yes yes, rocks and logs but those weren't used until after Chewie hijacked one.)

 

that's also a myth. They were never winning. If you read the novel it explains that the Ewoks SLAUGHTERED the stormtroopers. It was the Ewoks fighting that insipred Chewie to fight harder. The idea that the stormtroopers were ever winning comes from empire fan boys who can't deal with the fact that they got their butts handed to them by teddy bears.

 

When the ewoks took the At-St (notice i didn't say chewie) they were already winning the fight. There is never a time in the novel or the movie really where they are losing.

Edited September 25, 2012 by jarjarloves

Thanks for the clarification everyone!

I’ve never read any of the Star Wars novels (I know, shame on me), so I’ve only been able to go from the films regarding the Battle of Endor.

I’d forgotten about the Rebel fighters in the Battle of Endor, but I didn’t really get the impression that they made much of a difference in the film. Maybe that’s just me.

I’m guessing that we’ve all seen the ‘Family Guy’ Star Wars spoofs? I really like the way that they portray the Ewoks in that-almost like Hamsters, especially when they start to gnaw on the other dead Ewoks 

And Brian as Chewie with the AT-ST? Comedy gold.

that's also a myth. They were never winning. If you read the novel it explains that the Ewoks SLAUGHTERED the stormtroopers. It was the Ewoks fighting that insipred Chewie to fight harder. The idea that the stormtroopers were ever winning comes from empire fan boys who can't deal with the fact that they got their butts handed to them by teddy bears.

 

When the ewoks took the At-St (notice i didn't say chewie) they were already winning the fight. There is never a time in the novel or the movie really where they are losing.

 

Never a time in the movie? Perhaps you need to re-watch, as the AT-STs were demolishing the Ewoks.

 

 

 

Ya really looks like the Ewoks were destroying those AT-STs, would put more but the parts that show others 11 + 12 are not there anymore. Ya they were winning against the stormtroopers, AT-STs however not so much. The whole battle was really the stormies relying on the AT-STs.

 

When I said they were winning, I was talking moreso about the AT-STs being that they were the only ones to actually do anything. Probably should have clarified

 

Stormies= Losing

 

AT-STs= Winning

 

Probably should have separated the two battles. But were not really talking about battles here now, were talking about Stormtroopers as a whole here.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

Never a time in the movie? Perhaps you need to re-watch, as the AT-STs were demolishing the Ewoks.

 

 

 

Ya really looks like the Ewoks were destroying those AT-STs, would put more but the parts that show others 11 + 12 are not there anymore. Ya they were winning against the stormtroopers, AT-STs however not so much. The whole battle was really the stormies relying on the AT-STs.

 

When I said they were winning, I was talking moreso about the AT-STs being that they were the only ones to actually do anything. Probably should have clarified

 

Stormies= Losing

 

AT-STs= Winning

 

Probably should have separated the two battles. But were not really talking about battles here now, were talking about Stormtroopers as a whole here.

 

as explained in the books they are luring the AT-ST's into the trap they already set up. You don't think they magically had those logs all ready to go do you?

 

Not to mention how many Ewoks do they actually kill? 2 maybe 3?

 

So we have an entire Legion of the Emperor's best Stormtroopers who pretty much all get slaughtered then eaten by the Ewoks, they destroy we see what 3 At-Sts while the Entire Legion of the Emperor's best Stormtroopers mange to kill 2-3 Ewoks.

 

Sorry the Stormtroopers were lead into a trap and slaughtered.