Proceeding from the premise that they need a slight nerf, my challenge is this. How can you nerf them slightly while preserving the challenge level of the encounter.

 

If you don't feel that they need a nerf then move along, the purpose of the thread is how to, not does it need it.

 

My best suggestion would be to nerf or remove completely some of the mechanics. perhaps the yellow circle.

or maybe lower the damage they do slightly, say 10% over the course of the fight.

 

though that might be too much.

 

Suggestions?

Edited March 10, 2013 by DarthFamine
apparently people cant read

No. This is SUCH a simple fight. You can either keep Toth in berserk, or you can do the fight how it was meant to be done, both ways are extremely simple, and just call for awareness. Nerf, nerf, nerf, I wiped so I feel they need a nerf. From what I've heard EC has already been nerfed a lot, and nothing in this game needs to be nerfed, people need to stop being so impatient, and thinking this is Call of Duty where they should be able to beat everything within 1 or 2 tries. We have all done it, why can't you? Is it "too hard"? Well you're obviously doing something wrong, look up help, ask around for help, try different tactics, what is progression if you can do everything so simply?

Nerf them by buffing them. The only thing that is challenging in that fight is when you have too much dps and you push Toth into his jump when your tank still has fearful. Sometimes, the dps will literally have to stand there and do nothing for 10 or more seconds until the tank's fearful wears off. Maybe increase the amount of damage each boss has so that is no longer a problem. There is your nerf. Edited March 10, 2013 by bbare

Um, what? Are we playing the same game? I just recently beat those 2, haven't done story mode, we wiped a couple of times but only because some people made a few mistakes or were distracted by RL and stuff like this.. but the fight really isn't hard.

Well, I guess it would be a bit much if you have only melee DDs and the healer couldn't keep them up.. dunno.

Step 1: Buy RotHC

Step 2: Level to 55

Step 3: Faceroll HM Z&T

Its like already the easiest fight in there

So basically you want to almost dumb it down to SM-level.

Great idea!

Its like already the easiest fight in there

That title really has to go to Vorgath, the free loot pinata.

First of all, you say "please discuss" but then ask people who don't feel they need a nerf not to post. That's not a discussion.

 

Now. You propose removing the yellow circle mechanic. That's one of the *only* three changes between this and Story Mode - the others being the reflected damage on Fearful, and the stacking dots. The yellow circle adds an element of raid awareness for everybody - if you want to end Toth's Berserk, whoever it goes on is actually going to have to do something about it.

 

On the other hand, a lot of guilds are using this mechanic by *not* ending Toth's berserk, effectively negating *all* of the other mechanics of the fight and making it very simple.

 

Removing the yellow circle mechanic would actually make this fight a lot harder for many people, not easier.

 

Have you tried switching to that strategy? It may make the fight very easy for you.

That title really has to go to Vorgath, the free loot pinata.

even for nightmare that holds true

First of all, you say "please discuss" but then ask people who don't feel they need a nerf not to post. That's not a discussion.

 

Now. You propose removing the yellow circle mechanic. That's one of the *only* three changes between this and Story Mode - the others being the reflected damage on Fearful, and the stacking dots. The yellow circle adds an element of raid awareness for everybody - if you want to end Toth's Berserk, whoever it goes on is actually going to have to do something about it.

 

On the other hand, a lot of guilds are using this mechanic by *not* ending Toth's berserk, effectively negating *all* of the other mechanics of the fight and making it very simple.

 

Removing the yellow circle mechanic would actually make this fight a lot harder for many people, not easier.

 

Have you tried switching to that strategy? It may make the fight very easy for you.

 

The purpose is how to, not does it need it.

All i'm asking for is that people stay on topic.

But apparently that's far too much to ask of this bunch.

I really think that there is no way you could nerf this (at least not until RotHC) and have people be happy. It is an EXTREMELY simple fight, maybe you haven't beaten the tanks or anywhere forward, but when you get to HM Kephess, or even HM council in TfB, you'll look at this post and LOL, because compared to any of them, Toth and Zorn are a faceroll, even in NiM Toth and Zorn are easy.

The purpose is how to, not does it need it.

All i'm asking for is that people stay on topic.

But apparently that's far too much to ask of this bunch.

 

I think that's probably because nobody who's geared for it is going to agree to nerf it.

We wiped a lot against them (we hadn't the optimal raid composition with only one ranged dps, and we weren't fully geared) until we found our way. It only contributed to the acomplishment feeling when we did it. We beat them several times since, but I can't say they're easy.

They need a buff not nerf.

We wiped a lot against them (we hadn't the optimal raid composition with only one ranged dps, and we weren't fully geared) until we found our way. It only contributed to the acomplishment feeling when we did it. We beat them several times since, but I can't say they're easy.

 

I think once you've done T&Z for a while with the same group, everyone knows what to look for and what to expect, and after you've done it, it becomes a walk in the park.

If you nerf it then you'll be unprepared for NiM. You can't nerf HM because then the newbies will buuuuuurn on NiM.

 

You can always nerf SM though:p

The purpose is how to, not does it need it.

All i'm asking for is that people stay on topic.

But apparently that's far too much to ask of this bunch.

 

Because it's such a strange premise for discussion.

 

You've come to this irrelevant conclusion that Zorn and Toth need to be nerfed. And then just want everyone to agree with that point while brainstorming random ways to do it.

 

Of course many players aren't simply going to concede the point that they need a nerf... because the encounter isn't that difficult.

Because it's such a strange premise for discussion.

 

You've come to this irrelevant conclusion that Zorn and Toth need to be nerfed. And then just want everyone to agree with that point while brainstorming random ways to do it.

 

Of course many players aren't simply going to concede the point that they need a nerf... because the encounter isn't that difficult.

This. 100% exactly This.

 

This thread is comparable to going into the PTS forum and saying:

 

"Proceeding from the premise that Powertech Hybrid 2.0 has the worst dps in the game, I'm brainstorming ideas about how to make it more powerful. If you don't agree, please don't post in this thread."

 

Edit: DarthFamine, weren't you earlier claiming that HM LI was more difficult than NM EV, NM KP and SM EC and needed a group in Rakata or better? What is it with you and complaining that content in this game is too difficult?

Edited March 11, 2013 by Khevar

This. 100% exactly This.

 

This thread is comparable to going into the PTS forum and saying:

 

"Proceeding from the premise that Powertech Hybrid 2.0 has the worst dps in the game, I'm brainstorming ideas about how to make it more powerful. If you don't agree, please don't post in this thread."

 

Edit: DarthFamine, weren't you earlier claiming that HM LI was more difficult than NM EV, NM KP and SM EC and needed a group in Rakata or better? What is it with you and complaining that content in this game is too difficult?

 

 

Take it at face value, I do feel that alot of it is too difficult for the casual player. Seeing the nerfs coming to lost island in 2.0 it would seem that I was borne out on that point. Hard modes should be hard, not impossible. Nightmare modes should be completely unforgiving. But that's another discussion. I really do feel that this encounter does throw a bit too much at the players and should be nerfed.

 

But not into oblivion.

 

Hence my desire for feedback.

Even if you don't do the berserk trick, it really is the easiest fight (sans Vorgath) of EC HM. If it were nerfed, then Firebrand and Stormcaller would be even *more* of a kick in the nuts.

 

If you can't currently do Zorn and Toth HM you're not ready for the rest of the raid. That's not "it's too hard." It's an indicator that your raid needs to work on their DPS/survivability/whatever is holding you up, or gear up, or learn to coordinate better.

Even if you don't do the berserk trick, it really is the easiest fight (sans Vorgath) of EC HM. If it were nerfed, then Firebrand and Stormcaller would be even *more* of a kick in the nuts.

 

If you can't currently do Zorn and Toth HM you're not ready for the rest of the raid. That's not "it's too hard." It's an indicator that your raid needs to work on their DPS/survivability/whatever is holding you up, or gear up, or learn to coordinate better.

 

Jimmy's right. The problem with nerfing content is that it leaves you unprepared for more challenging content (nerf HM and watch as NiM wipes even more groups).

I disagree

 

im not just poking them once or twice then

qq

nerf

qq

 

im doing due diligence, multiple strats, multiple toons, multiple groups, multiple compositions across the spectrum.

After examining the encounter in question I have found it somewhat buggy and in need of a slight nerf.

 

As for preparing for nightmare, that's irrelevant to this discussion. Nightmare should be punishing and unforgiving.

 

so can you offer constructive ideas or not?

OP, you're dumb. Sorry, just had to say that.

 

Plenty of people can easily do EC HM (at least the first three bosses), and HMs do not call for a nerf, SM was already nerfed so bad that going into EC HM from SM is a whole new ballgame (DPS UNDER SHIELD GUISE!).

 

If you can't do EC HM Toth and Zorn, you need to start parsing, looking at who's dying, and why. If you're a casual guild who doesn't care about content, just keep banging your head against the wall; but don't think because YOU think it needs a nerf, that the community is going to totally agree with you.

I disagree

 

im not just poking them once or twice then

qq

nerf

qq

 

im doing due diligence, multiple strats, multiple toons, multiple groups, multiple compositions across the spectrum.

After examining the encounter in question I have found it somewhat buggy and in need of a slight nerf.

 

As for preparing for nightmare, that's irrelevant to this discussion. Nightmare should be punishing and unforgiving.

 

so can you offer constructive ideas or not?

 

I'm trying to be constructive here. If HM Z&T were nerfed, and you downed them, you'd then go into Stormcaller and Firebrand and not be even CLOSE to ready for that. Next thing you'll be calling for a nerf there, too.

 

The raid is balanced fine. It's difficult, yes. My guild didn't get fully through EC HM until our entire raid group was 99% 61s. But the first boss is almost *too* easy compared to the rest.

 

I'll reiterate: if you need Z&T nerfed you are NOT READY FOR EC HM.