It's not us, it's Blizzard. They already did the math on the participation of casual, solo pvpers versus those who do dedicated premades. They've spoken openly about it, and the link has been posted elsewhere. In a setting as accessible as Star Wars, I find it very hard to believe that those statistics would differ much; if anything, such a popular IP would draw MORE casuals, not fewer.

 

Like it or not, the MMO genre is no longer just for dedicated, hardcore gamers who pump hours a night into their chosen hobby. More and more it's been hybridized and simplified for the enjoyment of that vast population of more casual players who just want to pop in for *****s and giggles and don't have the time or inclination to group up to do so.

 

is this game run by blizzard?

 

I don't think anyone is disputing that randomness will always be a factor, no matter how much you try to balance teams. I believe the point is that is you're more likely (not guaranteed) to get something closer to a fair match when you split the bads and the goods equally rather than trying to get all of the goods on one side.

 

If fair and balance is so important to you, why don't you just group up with people you know? It's not time consuming at all and it's as simple as checking your friends list and typing /invite. I do this before I que up everytime, and sometimes it's only for a couple of games. If no body is on, or no body wants to que then I solo-que with understanding that I'm gonna be at the mercy of the luck of the draw.

Edited July 17, 2013 by DimeStax

is this game run by blizzard?

 

 

No, Blizzard is World of Warcraft. Bioware/Electronic Arts pulls the reigns on The Old Republic. However, the market for both games is the same (and for pretty much all MMOs save for more niche-based ones like Eve).

 

Blizzard happens to have a ton more resources and a lot more experience in the market, so they tend to be at the front of the pack in terms of innovations/trends.

If fair and balance is so important to you, why don't you just group up with people you know? It's not time consuming at all and it's as simple as checking your friends list and typing /invite. I do this before I que up everytime, and sometimes it's only for a couple of games. If no body is on, or no body wants to que then I solo-que with understanding that I'm gonna be at the mercy of the luck of the draw.

 

I tend to group only with my wife, because if we form a full premade then our matches become boring for a different reason: we're the ones doing the stomping. Our ideal match is competitive and back-and-forth, not a steamroll in favor of one side or the other. And yes, I'll grant that steamrolls still happen very often even in pug vs pug (one side gets all the healers, for example), but a random queuing system can only do so much.

 

I don't find coordinated premade vs random pug fun on either side. Both are boring, just for different reasons.

I tend to group only with my wife,

 

sorry. I stopped at the image of a swingers party.

sorry. I stopped at the image of a swingers party.

 

I'll have to share that comment with her; she'll get a chuckle.

I tend to group only with my wife, because if we form a full premade then our matches become boring for a different reason: we're the ones doing the stomping. Our ideal match is competitive and back-and-forth, not a steamroll in favor of one side or the other. And yes, I'll grant that steamrolls still happen very often even in pug vs pug (one side gets all the healers, for example), but a random queuing system can only do so much.

 

I don't find coordinated premade vs random pug fun on either side. Both are boring, just for different reasons.

 

So you agree then that random group forming through an all solo-que system will not give you the fairness and balance that you desire, it will make things just a little more random. Not to mention, you and your wife will hardly ever be able to play together on the same team. The answer for you isn't in advocating a solo-que system, it should be in advocating a match-making system that divides teams based on Honor, expertise, and maybe roles.

 

That being sad, however, I feel that with the new addition of more 4v4 Ranked WZs that most of the better players will spend more of their team doing these rather than stomping in Regs, which will ultimately mean casual players will play against other casual players more often.

Edited July 17, 2013 by DimeStax

Believe me, if solo queuing against premades is a serious issue for you, then you have more problems than you think. I manage to do just fine against them, even with only 6-7 people on my side at any point during this match from leavers and whiners.

 

If SSs aren't good enough, I'd be happy to get you a recording to watch. It's not premades that are the problem, it's a skill thing.

To that I say:

 

 

I almost forgot about the "wall bang" thing. Here is my opinion on that. Of course it is OP. It is the most OP thing ever put in the game. *snip*

 

I'll admit I will abuse the **** out of in regs and I think most people won't mind that because its just regs. Being on Pot5 for a month now I can tell the majority of the sever could give a **** less about a win or loss in regs by they way everyone plays and rage quits.

.

 

This is from the PoT5 Forums, from a thread called "Couldn't Do It With Legend"

 

It goes to show that competitive teams don't give half a damn about regs. He even EXPLICITLY says so. We are farming material to them.

 

They do not belong in my queue, and they should be removed.. through matchmaking or otherwise.

 

You DO have to understand, though, that the simplest solution is often the best solution. The simplest solution is split queues. (not my personal view, just the fact).

Edited July 17, 2013 by maverickmatt

To that I say:

 

 

 

 

This is from the PoT5 Forums, from a thread called "Couldn't Do It With Legend"

 

It goes to show that competitive teams don't give half a damn about regs. He even EXPLICITLY says so. We are farming material to them.

 

They do not belong in my queue, and they should be removed.. through matchmaking or otherwise.

 

You DO have to understand, though, that the simplest solution is often the best solution. The simplest solution is split queues. (not my personal view, just the fact).

 

The simplest solution is for you to deal with it, as it requires no body to actually do anything. Just sayin.

Edited July 17, 2013 by DimeStax

I'll have to share that comment with her; she'll get a chuckle.

 

heh. share. that's sexual too!

So you agree then that random group forming through an all solo-que system will not give you the fairness and balance that you desire, it will make things just a little more random. Not to mention, you and your wife will hardly ever be able to play together on the same team. The answer for you isn't in advocating a solo-que system, it should be in advocating a match-making system that divides teams based on Honor, expertise, and maybe roles.

 

Oh, don't get me wrong. I agree with most of what you just said.

 

If the separate queues became a real deal, my wife and I would be playing with other premades (2s, 3s and 4s). But I'm okay with that, because that probably means better overall competition and less random stupidity. If our queue times got longer, well... that's a price I'm willing to pay for the health of the game, because in the final analysis more people happily pvping = good for TOR. And the bigger the pvp population gets, the faster everyone's queues will pop.

 

Plus, unlike a lot of the premade defenders in here, I enjoy playing with my friends regardless of whether I'm teamed up with them or fighting against them. If my wife and I solo queued and ended up on opposite sides of the red line, we'd just be trash talking each other from across the room.

 

The current system, for whatever reason, is not working. Queues are getting longer and longer, people are not pvping as actively as they used to. The 55 bracket is passed up for lowbie brackets (I myself do this because otherwise I won't get a match to pop regularly during the weird hours I play). It's not sustainable and it needs help. The friendlier the game is to casuals, the better things will get for everyone. If the minority has to sacrifice something to make that happen, then I'm okay with that.

 

And matchmaking, while a technically better solution, won't work in this game because the populations on all but 2 of the servers are just too small. If they ever find a way for their busted engine to handle cross-server queues, then matchmaking could work. As it stands now, we'll just end up in the same place because the pool of pvpers is usually too small at any one time.

here ill post this again

 

anyone that thinks a solo-only queue is going to solve any problems, please read this multiple times so you can understand why it *will not solve your problem*

 

 

what is the biggest complaint here? the SUPER QUEUE GROUP, ie two 4-man teams that sync up so that can be a full 8-man premade in regs. this is very, very easy to do b/c the queue is simply first come, first serve. you funnel it down a few times, and BAM youre groups are synced and you can have an 8-man premade in regs.

 

lets say that a solo-only queue is introduced. how long before 4 players sync their solo-queues in order to get a "premade" into the solo-only queue? it will not be difficult to do, and yet we will have the same situation we currently have, and will be back to square one (people complaining about premades vs pugs).

 

 

a solo-only queue is a short-term, near sighted solution.

skill based matchmaking is a long term solution that will have actual positive results

here ill post this again

 

Most of us have already agreed with the above, friend, in one form or another.

 

Until the populations get bigger or they implement x-server queues, no solution is really going to change much about the current metagame in PvP (though a solo-only toggle would certainly improve same faction matches). Which means the only way for us to get more diverse player pools in there for us to shoot at is to make sure they aren't driven off in spades the moment they set foot in a WZ.

 

You guys can hate on the 'bads' and try to blame them all you want, but without that vast pool of players enjoying the game, we'll have no one else to play with soon enough. You have to learn to accomodate your fellow man or your premades are not going to have much to do but sit on the fleet like they did before ftp went live.

Most of us have already agreed with the above, friend, in one form or another.

 

Until the populations get bigger or they implement x-server queues, no solution is really going to change much about the current metagame in PvP (though a solo-only toggle would certainly improve same faction matches). Which means the only way for us to get more diverse player pools in there for us to shoot at is to make sure they aren't driven off in spades the moment they set foot in a WZ.

 

You guys can hate on the 'bads' and try to blame them all you want, but without that vast pool of players enjoying the game, we'll have no one else to play with soon enough. You have to learn to accomodate your fellow man or your premades are not going to have much to do but sit on the fleet like they did before ftp went live.

 

I don't understand your logic though. You say that people are not PvPing and causing long queue times because premades are ruining the 55 bracket, and your solution is to split up the queue brackets even more and increase the queue times even longer? I don't follow.

Edited July 17, 2013 by DimeStax

I don't understand your logic though. You say that people are not PvPing and causing long queue times because premades are ruining the 55 bracket, and your solution is to split up the queue brackets even more and increase the queue times even longer? I don't follow.

 

The trouble is that it only takes 1 or 2 good roflstompings by a premade team to drive off a casual pvper for a night. If that happens too many nights in a row or in a given week, that player is probably gone for good from that aspect of the game.

 

Queue times are getting awful now because that's pretty much already happened. What's left are the hardcore solo q'ers who are willing to take the beatings with the wins, the few new casuals who cycle up, and the premades / heavy pvp guilds. That's not sustainable now any more than it was when the game was in dire straits before ftp.

 

One of the solutions was to implement a toggle so that players could request they only be queued along with others who select the same toggle-----solo only. This would guarantee no premade teams and increase the odds of the goods/bads being distributed more evenly in matches (especially same faction matches). It would also encourage the more freewheeling give and take battles and node flipping some find more enjoyable.

 

That said, on smaller pop servers, this would only really work in same faction matches and even still would be susceptible to cheats. But having the option might bring back more of those casuals who swore off the pvp, and the bigger the population got the better that system would work.

 

The 'normal' queue would remain as it is---solo queuers who don't mind facing premades could still queue just as they used to. The real question is whether the queues would get faster for the solo-only players and slower for the premades (as Blizzard's data has suggested), or just slower for everyone.

 

Do I think it's an ideal solution? Not really. It'd be at best a bandaid that would hopefully attract back some of the people who gave up. What's really needed is X-Server queuing.

To that I say:

 

 

 

 

This is from the PoT5 Forums, from a thread called "Couldn't Do It With Legend"

 

It goes to show that competitive teams don't give half a damn about regs. He even EXPLICITLY says so. We are farming material to them.

 

They do not belong in my queue, and they should be removed.. through matchmaking or otherwise.

 

You DO have to understand, though, that the simplest solution is often the best solution. The simplest solution is split queues. (not my personal view, just the fact).

 

I REALLY hope we're not judging the entire premade population by a handful of LD50's biggest trolls. Terrible mechanics are terrible, it doesn't take a premade to wallbang people. In fact, it doesn't even take a wall anymore.

what is the biggest complaint here? the SUPER QUEUE GROUP,

that's not nearly the biggest complaint, but it is the most abusive, cheating thing that a grp can do. followed by prolonging matches to grief/farm the overmatched opponents.

 

no. the complaint I see most is that the 4 best players are able to guarantee that they are always on the same team.

 

actually, the complaint I see most is that voice comms is this huge advantage, but that's not the case. voice is only a determining factor if the WZ is otherwise close/balanced to begin with, which it is not if the 4 best players are on the same team all the time.

 

when it comes to matchmaking, you are correct, there is A LOT to be desired. two grps of 4 should never be placed on the same team when the opponents lack a 4m (or maybe a 3m? some sort of premade). this is particularly aggravating when we're dealing with same faction matches. HOWEVER, the double-premade (inadvertent "superQ") is a relatively rare event.

 

solo Qs do two undisputable things that are good:

• prevent the possibility of a superQ (whether intentional or otherwise)
  
• randomize grp comps so that nobody can artificially tilt the field by stacking the best 4 ppl on the same team every game. Note that random means random. it does not mean balanced. the best players can still land the same team, but they cannot guarantee that they will.
  

 

as an aside for the ppl who claim their premades carry solo queuers, you need solos more than solos need you. remember that. when your team is down a man or two...it's never another premade that fills in. same for the start of a match. this all leads me to....

 

neither of these issues addresses my major beef, which mostly affects solo Qers and completely abuses them: back fill. a solo Qer is 99% more likely to get pulled into an in-progress WZ than a grp of 2 or more. before they do one more *((&(ing thing with queues, they should give ppl a choice about taking in-progress WZs. BACK FILL IS A CROCK OF BANTHA DROPPINGS. FIX THIS.

I REALLY hope we're not judging the entire premade population by a handful of LD50's biggest trolls. Terrible mechanics are terrible, it doesn't take a premade to wallbang people. In fact, it doesn't even take a wall anymore.

 

devil is the one who's behavior he was addressing. and he's very much NOT an LD50 guy. I think that's a problem limited to Po5 and maybe The Bastion, however.

Edited July 17, 2013 by foxmob

devil is the one who's behavior he was addressing. and he's very much NOT an LD50 guy. I think that's a problem limited to Po5 and maybe The Bastion, however.

 

I didn't go back to the thread and check, that has just predominantly been what that thread is about. Devil has made no secret of his abuse of this mechanic in regs while he is trying to get BW to fix it, however. My point is, everyone knows this mechanic is terrible, but it can be used by anyone and has no bearing on the premade argument.

 

The post I was referring to was in regards to ranked players not abusing mechanics in ranked, but using them in regs. To which I would say, there is no guarantee that the other side won't be using the same mechanics in regs, but certain ranked teams have agreed not to use it against each other (obviously not the case btw since it's being used by at least 1 guild). There is no way in a reg match to agree what you will and will not do, so you use what's available. The same went for bolster bugging before purple crafted items were fixed (and yes, that was still abused in ranked too).

If solo puggers had their own dedicated queue, the casuals that dominate the populations of MMO pvp would have a safe place to play where they can just catass around and have mindless fun (which is the direction gaming is going in the modern world anyway). Instead this vast majority of players get alienated and leave, and we (the hardcore pvpers) lose the money they would have brought to the game. Queue times dry up, everyone loses.

 

The only ones losing if they separate the queues are premades, who are a very small minority in mmo pvp. I'm comfortable with that. So are industry leaders like Blizzard, who realize that alienating the bulk of your pvp base to satisfy the desires of the few hurts your bottom line.

 

I'm going to respond to the two bolded parts:

 

First Bolded: Have to agree with this statement, simply because casual =/= PuG. Not all Casuals are PuGs, and not al PuG's are casual. I did a figurative estimate a few pages back, when something like this;

 

Assuming a majority split of even 70% casuals and 30% non-casual, you then have to divide those casuals by pug/grouped. A 50/50 split puts 35% of the population as casual PuGs. Even if you assume all casual PuGs are in favor of the split queue, that still puts 65% of the population either against it, or indifferent (Non-casual PuGs).

 

Truth is, we do not have these numbers/statistics, and those claiming (for a fact!) casual PuG's are the majority are (frankly) pulling it out of their backside. Yes, you could manipulate the figurative numbers above and probably get close to 50% in favor, but that's really not the point. You do not know, I do not know, and trying to play the "majority" card on this isn't going to work because simply... we do not know.

 

As for the comments about that Blizzard Dev post: It's Irrelevant, Blizzard is not Bioware, we do not have their numbers, their BG/PvP system, their servers, etc... They may be an "industry leader," it does not make them the end all be all in the MMO world. If you like, I'll also find the post where a Dev says Arena's were the biggest mistake to ever happen to WoW.

 

Finally on that; Premades may be a "small minority" of the PvP community, groups, trios, and duo's are not.

 

 

Now for my own point: Yes, there are points where matchmaking becomes in effective... those points are also where Split queue's become in effective as well. The difference is, where matchmaking puts an uneven match together, Split queue's put's nothing together.

 

I think I've done this example (over and over) but:

 

Say you're at a critical low population with 32 players available. 15 pugs, 17 group players (3 4-mans, 1 3-man, 1 2-man) of varying skill levels. Matchmaking creates 2 matches (eventually) with all 32 players. Hopefully it pulls 4-man + 4 pugs vs 4-man + 4 pugs, and 4-man+4pugs vs 3-man + 2-man + 3 Pugs. or something of the sort.

 

Split queues provides no match for either side.

 

Outsider: O.o but Doom, that's a grossly over complicated, specific, unlikely to happen example. Besides everyone knows there's more Pugs than groups!

 

Alright, 32 players again, 20 pugs and 3 4-mans.

 

Of course, 16 pugs get to play which is sweet. But 12 grouped players and 4 pugs (16) are sitting out. 12 f them have an indefinite queue time, and 4 of them cycle in every 10-15 minutes.

 

Throw in 2's and 3's, into that, and you're stuck with a logistical cluster-**** in the group queue, all so PuG's can get stomped by each other instead of a "Premade." It's just bad sense to go for a "Simple Solution" that hurts more than it helps and doesn't actually solve the root problems of stomping/advantages.

I think you're trying to fix a moderately bad but tolerable situation, and replace it with a very bad situation. Single-only queues will help no body. There will be people who "randomly" keep getting bad people on their team (much like the same way we "randomly" get 5-10 of the same WZ in a row ), and there will be no way for them to control that other than to stop queuing, and casuals will continue to get stomped as long as they continue to play against more serious players than themselves, which single que doesn't fix. Edited July 17, 2013 by DimeStax

I didn't go back to the thread and check, that has just predominantly been what that thread is about. Devil has made no secret of his abuse of this mechanic in regs while he is trying to get BW to fix it, however. My point is, everyone knows this mechanic is terrible, but it can be used by anyone and has no bearing on the premade argument.

 

The post I was referring to was in regards to ranked players not abusing mechanics in ranked, but using them in regs. To which I would say, there is no guarantee that the other side won't be using the same mechanics in regs, but certain ranked teams have agreed not to use it against each other (obviously not the case btw since it's being used by at least 1 guild). There is no way in a reg match to agree what you will and will not do, so you use what's available. The same went for bolster bugging before purple crafted items were fixed (and yes, that was still abused in ranked too).

uh...I don't have enough info to get involved in the wall bang thing. what I meant was it was devil, not an LD50 guy, who said he didn't give a crud about regs and would screw around in them, presumably farm, and as you said, wall bang. it wasn't just him. I've seen similar sentiments from other ppl in po5 that were not LD50. not holding the latter up as saints or anything. just pointing out that, in this case, they weren't endorsing or condoning abusing ppl in regs or ignoring objectives in regs just to mess around.

I'm going to respond to the two bolded parts:

 

First Bolded: Have to agree with this statement, simply because casual =/= PuG. Not all Casuals are PuGs, and not al PuG's are casual. I did a figurative estimate a few pages back, when something like this;

 

Assuming a majority split of even 70% casuals and 30% non-casual, you then have to divide those casuals by pug/grouped. A 50/50 split puts 35% of the population as casual PuGs. Even if you assume all casual PuGs are in favor of the split queue, that still puts 65% of the population either against it, or indifferent (Non-casual PuGs).

 

Truth is, we do not have these numbers/statistics, and those claiming (for a fact!) casual PuG's are the majority are (frankly) pulling it out of their backside. Yes, you could manipulate the figurative numbers above and probably get close to 50% in favor, but that's really not the point. You do not know, I do not know, and trying to play the "majority" card on this isn't going to work because simply... we do not know.

 

As for the comments about that Blizzard Dev post: It's Irrelevant, Blizzard is not Bioware, we do not have their numbers, their BG/PvP system, their servers, etc... They may be an "industry leader," it does not make them the end all be all in the MMO world. If you like, I'll also find the post where a Dev says Arena's were the biggest mistake to ever happen to WoW.

 

Finally on that; Premades may be a "small minority" of the PvP community, groups, trios, and duo's are not.

 

 

Now for my own point: Yes, there are points where matchmaking becomes in effective... those points are also where Split queue's become in effective as well. The difference is, where matchmaking puts an uneven match together, Split queue's put's nothing together.

 

I think I've done this example (over and over) but:

 

Say you're at a critical low population with 32 players available. 15 pugs, 17 group players (3 4-mans, 1 3-man, 1 2-man) of varying skill levels. Matchmaking creates 2 matches (eventually) with all 32 players. Hopefully it pulls 4-man + 4 pugs vs 4-man + 4 pugs, and 4-man+4pugs vs 3-man + 2-man + 3 Pugs. or something of the sort.

 

Split queues provides no match for either side.

 

Outsider: O.o but Doom, that's a grossly over complicated, specific, unlikely to happen example. Besides everyone knows there's more Pugs than groups!

 

Alright, 32 players again, 20 pugs and 3 4-mans.

 

Of course, 16 pugs get to play which is sweet. But 12 grouped players and 4 pugs (16) are sitting out. 12 f them have an indefinite queue time, and 4 of them cycle in every 10-15 minutes.

 

Throw in 2's and 3's, into that, and you're stuck with a logistical cluster-**** in the group queue, all so PuG's can get stomped by each other instead of a "Premade." It's just bad sense to go for a "Simple Solution" that hurts more than it helps and doesn't actually solve the root problems of stomping/advantages.

 

The post by Blizzard devs on the psychology, unfairness, and business ineffectiveness of allowing premades to queue against solo puggers is anything but irrelevant. It is squarely, firmly on point and it always will be.

 

These are the same customers. They are looking for the same type of experience. They play the same MMOs. Nothing is different except that BW mishandled the brand and the state of pvp to the point that we have a much smaller available pool than WoW does. Human nature does not change.

 

Blizzard, above all, knows how to make money. They would never, EVER have implemented their queue changes if the premades were the majority of their paying customers. If the two segments of the population were roughly equal, they probably still would not have acted. That they went out of their way to not only change the system but even condemn the notion of premade vs pug should tell you everything you need to know: casuals are where the MMO money is, and they have spoken.

 

Nothing is different here except the people holding the reigns. The style of WZ pvp is almost identical to BG pvp. The people partaking are the same type of MMO player. Why would you assume the conclusions would be so radically different in TOR?

 

PvP must be fun for people to continue doing it, in the same way PvE must be fun (even and perhaps especially when it's challenging). If the PvP is not fun due to unbalanced teams, whether perceived or otherwise, the pvpers will leave.

 

Anyone attempting to discredit the Blizzard post is not looking at this scientifically. It is the SAME target market guys, the same metrics, the same feedback.

 

The solution? I agree, it's elusive. The best is cross server (not going to happen) the next best is just infusing the game with a bigger population across all servers. That's only going to happen if BW starts listening to the majority of its customers and giving them what they want, for which they have a very poor track record.

And I'm not certain why you referenced the Blizzard dev's post about arenas. They've been very vocal about what a disaster that was and continues to be (largely due to how it forced them to play pinball with class balancing for years) and they only kept it in because player feedback ultimately revealed that the arena population knew how unfair/comp-based it was but still enjoyed it enough to take it as it was.

 

And despite what a train wreck it was for Blizzard to deal with, BW is still going ahead and adding something similar to their own game. They don't listen to their customer base, or follow industry trends on that point either.

I think you're trying to fix a moderately bad but tolerable situation, and replace it with a very bad situation. Single-only queues will help no body. There will be people who "randomly" keep getting bad people on their team (much like the same way we "randomly" get 5-10 of the same WZ in a row ), and there will be no way for them to control that other than to stop queuing, and casuals will continue to get stomped as long as they continue to play against more serious players than themselves, which single que doesn't fix.

 

You're missing the point.

 

If you take 16 players and willfully group 4 of the best (a coordinated, experience premade) onto one team and distribute the rest randomly, it is inherently more prone to imbalance than if those 4 skilled players were also distributed at random.

 

You will always have a much better shot at something resembling balance if the bads and the goods are equally distributed across both teams as much as is possible. Balance = fun.

 

Nothing is foolproof. Bad matchups will still happen. But back-to-back-to-back curbstompings that drive players away will not.

 

The good players should help drag up the bad players on both sides. The good players should NOT gang up on one side and obliterate the other side. That drives casual pvpers (and even worn-out hardcore ones like me) away from the game.