There are 3 main reasons:

1. Their weapons are sub-part; like it or not if it can't defeat (or at least stall until you get backup) another ship one on one it's likely a detriment to your squadron.

2. Their support abilities cannot be used to their fullest in the current iteration of the game; Okay who needs healing the most? That guy or that guy? is that guy out of ammo or not? Wait, did that guy just take an accuracy de-buff? This are all questions we can't have answered since we can't even target allied ships (which is a real pain when in the middle of a fur-ball you lose your wingman).

3. Anything one of these "support" ships can do a bomber can do better; a ship in need of repairs/ammo would have to able to find a clarion/imperium in the middle of a match, target him to check if their repair probes are up (which we can't do) and ask for the ability and hope the player has the time to do so or is inclined to do it. Now a bomber on the other hand has a repair drone out that does that automatically, which is more likely to see proper use you think? "Yeah but the scout also has repair probes" true, but no way to defend it, or itself for that matter.

Tensor allows you to get back into the fray faster! Yeah so does Hyperspace beacon...

Bomber also have access to HL, have better hull/armor, *very* powerful secondary weapons and can specialize in "support " with Ion Mines and Interdiction Sentries, all in all these 2 new ships are going out of my active ship rotation. There is no point on using them when bombers do all they can, but better.

1) Nah, their weapons are quite okay. If you are talking secondaries, then yeah, I could imagine some cooler options, but still they are okay. If you 1v1 dogfight a Flashfire, of course that you lose, otherwise you have a fair chance. I like Light lasers, myself, and people are quite good with regular lasers. Lately, I have even seen some well used Rapids.

2) Fully agreed. Ally distance measure is needed. Possibly ally targetting, or at least ally hull/shield info on mouseover.

3) Comparing to bombers is quite silly, as all a bomber can do is sit at a satellite and let AI deal with nearby enemies. Bombers can't reposition themselves as the battle moves, they can't distribute buffs in needy situations, and they can't outmaneuver anything besides an asteroid in a fair fight.

For all I care, take them out of your loadout, they really are far from the strongest and easiest FotM ships you can bring, but they are useful and they can help in battle if you know what you are doing.

Spearpont is now my main ship.

Support scout is pretty bad, support strike seems pretty good.

Combat Command needs to be straight up redone. I can't think of any predictable moment when supplying my team with Accuracy and Weapon Regen will have any significant impact on a match.

Support Scout is indeed very bad. It's a hodgepodge of abilities, and it's very hard to extract a viable playstyle out of it, in Domination or TDM. Tensor Field is super useful at the start of Domination, but after that its hard to coordinate a really significant, multiplicative use of it that will empower your team to victory. It's still better than Combat Command, but not by much.

I had high hopes for the support Strike, especially when it looked like Repair Drone was going to have a 30 second cooldown ... but then the upgraded cooldown got doubled. It's still good--it has a lot of powerful defensive options and can have the best shields in the game, but its offense feels very clunky. Not having access to HLC's really hurts, especially since it doesn't have any other good turret-clearing weapons. Still, with a dedicated offensive wingman this ship can do well. And Remote Slicing + EMP Missile can combo nicely ... once both are fully upgraded (72000 req )

Still, I agree that it's pretty much always going to be the question of, "Would I be better off supporting in a Minelayer or Dronecarrier?"

3) Comparing to bombers is quite silly, as all a bomber can do is sit at a satellite and let AI deal with nearby enemies. Bombers can't reposition themselves as the battle moves, they can't distribute buffs in needy situations, and they can't outmaneuver anything besides an asteroid in a fair fight.

 

The Imperium/Clarion really doesn't have any significant mobility edge over a Bomber. It doesn't have Barrel Roll as a travel skill, it doesn't have Thrusters, and Strike afterburners run out just as quickly as Bomber afterburners. The only difference is that its base speed is a little bit higher, but it's not going to make a huge difference.

And if you flew on TEH you'd know Bombers reposition all the time, especially offensive Minelayers.

The Imperium/Clarion really doesn't have any significant mobility edge over a Bomber. It doesn't have Barrel Roll as a travel skill, it doesn't have Thrusters, and Strike afterburners run out just as quickly as Bomber afterburners. The only difference is that its base speed is a little bit higher, but it's not going to make a huge difference.

1. It's 17% faster, that's not trivial.
   
2. It can get Power Dive, which can be used as a travel skill.
   

1. It's 17% faster, that's not trivial.
   
2. It can get Power Dive, which can be used as a travel skill.
   

Not trivial, but not a game changer either. I can boost from B to A or C in a Bomber without difficulty. And when's the last time a node fell and you thought to yourself, "If only I got there 17% sooner!?"

I know Power Dive can be used as a travel skill, though if you take it over E2S Converter, you're sacrificing a ton of survivability, such that you'll be nowhere near as durable as a Bomber.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you want super-mobile support, go with the Scout (at your peril). If you want heavy-duty support, go Bomber. The support Strike is in a weird middle spot. Sometimes middle is good, but the meta seems to be moving toward extremes.

Combat Command needs to be straight up redone. I can't think of any predictable moment when supplying my team with Accuracy and Weapon Regen will have any significant impact on a match.

Still better than Sensor beacon, IMO :

1. Beacons never last long as they ressemble a mine or a drone

2. -10% evasion on ennemies will always be weaker than +10% of accuracy (because if the ennemy has less than 10% evasion, it's wasted, while almost all weapon will have less than 90% accuracy)

3. Sensor buff/debuff ? For what purpose ? We sometimes see people from outrageous distances, so it's not a little reduction that will matter that much

I think that you think of the support scouts like they are only support ships.

I tend to use Tensor to buff myself, primarily, like I do with TT on my Nova. It doesn't grant a damage boost, but it provides me with more maneuverability and thus shooting opportunities, or speed to chase down some BR users, or anyone.

And I haven't unlocked the T4 extra turn rate and T5 extra speed yet.

Of course, I prefer to use this ability, along with Shield Projector, when allies are close-by, but I am not ashamed to blast it on me and myself only to win a fight or two.

Of course, the ship is worse in combat than my Nova, not to mention some dude's Flashfire. But it is far from fodder, far from useless.

As long as everyone goes with FotM ships, they are indeed very bad for these people. But if you aren't afraid to try new things, and, god forbid, have fun, then the scout (and the fighter, too) qualifies as good enough ship to perform well.

thanks for eating my enormous post, internet

tl;dr: all ships are compared to similar ships; dogfighters have distinct advantages/disadvantages depending on class and build, gunships are too similar to be a meaningful choice, and support ships have too much overlap with bombers without the massive weaponry/class defensive advantages, can reduce overlap by buffing command skills to support different styles of play for each class, similar to how ground tanks/healers are theoretically viable always but specialized for different situations

tensor creates an arms race of speed at the start of a match (bad) and is dangerous when people are trying to make precision maneuvers using skills they've honed over the past four months (bad), should change to massive sensor buff and +12% evasion (cap at 35% evasion before other active abilities) with t5 choice between missile break + 5s immunity or 10s +10% crit +25% surge

combat command is only really good if you're hanging around gunships sniping scouts, which is a bad strategy, and should be changed to give +10% damage with power to weapons, +10% shield pool with power to shields, -8% maneuver cost with power to engines, and user gets double the bonuses if they hit a buddy with it

remote slicing is generally an ok idea, but would be much better if it were 25% (upgraded) shield bleedthrough instead of tiny shield dot and -75% regen for 5s instead of penalty to max power pool

all three could use upgraded range/radius with limited number of maximum targets (favoring closest first)

repair probes should probably be a little bit nicer, that cd nerf was dramatic as gophers

combat command is only really good if you're hanging around gunships sniping scouts, which is a bad strategy, and should be changed to give +10% damage with power to weapons, +10% shield pool with power to shields, -8% maneuver cost with power to engines, and user gets double the bonuses if they hit a buddy with it

 

I love this. It makes Combat Command a jack of all trades usable for a variety of purposes.

Though instead of 10% shield pool, which may not be useful if your shields aren't full or if you're immediately hit, I'd make it reduce shield regen delay.

Or heck, just make Combat Command remove ALL regen delay (from L, S, and E) for a set time. That would be universally useful.

Or heck, just make Combat Command remove ALL regen delay (from L, S, and E) for a set time. That would be universally useful.

I fear it may be a bit too much.

I love this. It makes Combat Command a jack of all trades usable for a variety of purposes.

In the Post That Was, which became Sacrificed to the Great Gods of Internet Noms, I mentioned something about how this seems to have been the design intent from the start -- after all, everyone should be shooting things a lot of the time, while Tensor Field, Remote Slicing, and Repair Drones all favor a particular playstyle and are only available to classes that support that playstyle.. Unfortunately, Combat Command is rather weak at making people better at shoots, and it's hard to make it stronger at shoots without introducing burst damage (which is scout territory, ostensibly).

Though instead of 10% shield pool, which may not be useful if your shields aren't full or if you're immediately hit, I'd make it reduce shield regen delay.

I could see both, really, but...

Or heck, just make Combat Command remove ALL regen delay (from L, S, and E) for a set time. That would be universally useful.

I like this better, for shields and engines. The only problem is that certain builds (cough scouts cough) stack engine regen pretty hard, and removing the regen delay would be rather strong for them. For weapons, power regen is kind of not amazing given that most weapons are balanced around not having power problems as long as you're accurate (which is a good thing), and getting +damage from your buddy "feels better".

Actually, if we really want to see the positive reinforcement (which I think is Pretty Important for people playing support roles), Combat Command would give blaster shots a "sticky bomb" effect: each hit applies a stacking debuff that deals damage after 0.5 seconds, credited to the command ship (thus, counts towards their damage/dps on the leaderboard and shows up on their screen, instead of their ally's).

Also, side note, I think all of these effects should depend on the ship's power distribution is currently set -- I feel like all at once would be too powerful (or at least, too potentially problematic). I don't think Combat Command should be "be better at everything", I think it should be "be better at now". It's also more interesting that way IMO.

thanks for eating my enormous post, internet

 

tl;dr: all ships are compared to similar ships; dogfighters have distinct advantages/disadvantages depending on class and build, gunships are too similar to be a meaningful choice, and support ships have too much overlap with bombers without the massive weaponry/class defensive advantages, can reduce overlap by buffing command skills to support different styles of play for each class, similar to how ground tanks/healers are theoretically viable always but specialized for different situations

 

tensor creates an arms race of speed at the start of a match (bad) and is dangerous when people are trying to make precision maneuvers using skills they've honed over the past four months (bad), should change to massive sensor buff and +12% evasion (cap at 35% evasion before other active abilities) with t5 choice between missile break + 5s immunity or 10s +10% crit +25% surge

 

combat command is only really good if you're hanging around gunships sniping scouts, which is a bad strategy, and should be changed to give +10% damage with power to weapons, +10% shield pool with power to shields, -8% maneuver cost with power to engines, and user gets double the bonuses if they hit a buddy with it

 

remote slicing is generally an ok idea, but would be much better if it were 25% (upgraded) shield bleedthrough instead of tiny shield dot and -75% regen for 5s instead of penalty to max power pool

 

all three could use upgraded range/radius with limited number of maximum targets (favoring closest first)

 

repair probes should probably be a little bit nicer, that cd nerf was dramatic as gophers

This is what I was getting at, the new ships trade *way* too much fire power for overly specialized support options, if they were more broad in what they buffed they could be a great boon to your squad.

Right now the only ones doing well on these ships are those who would have done well in any ship and actually a lot better in any other scout/strike fighter.

I don't really mind tensor field boosting speed, especially since the scout ship gives up a booster slot with its setup. It gives a bit of maneuverability and defensive buffing, which isn't a bad thing for what it is. I'd actually dislike having some of the engine boosts removed... there are times where speed is helpful for everyone. But a bit more buffing to defense would help it be more of a good defensive support.

I agree that combat command just doesn't do enough... I'm sure they were worried about it being too powerful, but it's just too weak as it is. It's got to fill the offensive support role that it seems to be set up to be, like tensor is supposed to be defensive. Both could work better in those roles, though tensor does it better.

Having seen these support ships, I kind of have to wonder why they gave bombers so many of the same abilities, unless it's to fulfill the niche of people who don't mind support roles but hate bombers (like me... and it sure seems like most people don't mind flying bombers).

I just am not sure that they need buffs.

I think that it's good that you don't think "I've gotta fly this". I wouldn't want these ships to be super common. I think buffing them much runs the risk that you'd want to turn your strike and scout wings mostly into them- I mean, if you and two wings are able to rotate tensor field or command or repair probes, then I think it would be really hard to justify ANYONE playing the other two types of scouts or strikes in that scenario.

I think the current setup hits a balance. It's obvious that the disadvantages, especially in the secondary weapons and lack of thrusters, are meaningful, and the power lets your type1 and type2 ships have a supremacy advantage over similar ships without such an ally.

Honestly ask yourself if the changes you want wouldn't result in one of the best parties possible being really heavy on the type 3s. I already think you pretty badly want one of each in any match.

Honestly ask yourself if the changes you want wouldn't result in one of the best parties possible being really heavy on the type 3s. I already think you pretty badly want one of each in any match.

This is a natural consequence of a support class. Good players can get a lot out of them (as long as the numbers allow it), and so an optimal party will always include a few support characters. You can see this with tanks and healers, medics and engineers, elementalists and mesmers. I don't think it's at all a bad thing that a support class can have very strong team synergy in the right hands; in my experience, games become degenerate when it's viable to sacrifice support characters for offensive characters.

In fact, let's go back in time a bit to December. Remember what class filled the support role? Yeah, it was gunships. Remember what class made your team win if you had enough good players flying them? Yeah, that was also gunships. This thread isn't about "gunships were fine" or "gunships were stupid p2w", but consider the concept: a support class was dominant in good hands and fodder in bad. Is that a bad thing? I think not.

The flip side of the coin is when the numbers don't actually allow the current support classes to be good. I've never noticed Combat Command doing anything, I actively avoid players with Tensor Field after the start of a match, and Repair Probes feel a bit overnerfed. Remote Slicing is a poor man's EMP field and I honestly don't see how they justify the component slot given the weaknesses EMP field has demonstrated. Combine all that with the inherent flaws in mobility and weaponry, and you simply have a pair of underpowered classes.

I followed two of my buddies with a clarion outfitted with repair probes and shield projector. Final stats at the end of the game showed them both roughly 30% ahead of their normal production levels. I was maybe 5-10% behind my usual production so I'd say with the right conditions the clarion can be a force multiplier.

With only one round of experience to draw from that included a fair amount of two shippers it's hard to make a solid conclusion but the results were definitely promising. The main drawback to the community at large is the lack of feedback. Based on my stats alone it was hard to tell the impact I was having. I got no real feedback and my stats were a bit low. After the match they both confirmed they could feel the difference and the stats were there to back up the perception.

The game also doesn't help since you can't target a friendly. I had to go by feel on when to hit my shields/probes. I did my best to keep on the tail of one or the other the entire match. When I could see their ship model clearly I knew I was close enough to pop a cooldown. I flew defensively and drew a lot of fire but had zero deaths (there were no gunships of note in the match). I managed 8 kills and 12 assists with 29k damage flying purely as support and staying defensive. Whenever I lost track of them due to rolling around in a dogfight I would get back on their tail as soon as possible only breaking off when clear targets presented themselves and only for a short period of time. Also we were not using VOIP.

For reference, I have have protorps and quads along with power dive on the build and all but two components are mastered. Crew skill is suppression.

I followed two of my buddies with a clarion outfitted with repair probes and shield projector.

 

[...]

 

For reference, I have have protorps and quads along with power dive on the build and all but two components are mastered. Crew skill is suppression.

Beside co-pilot, I use the same ship, and while she's far from mastered , I don't feel I'm lacking on the battlefield.

Sure it's much less offensive, but it's fine... Unlike a Spearpoint which is rather terrible IMO. (Still trying some stuff, but nothing seemed great at the moment)

Beside co-pilot, I use the same ship, and while she's far from mastered , I don't feel I'm lacking on the battlefield.

 

Sure it's much less offensive, but it's fine... Unlike a Spearpoint which is rather terrible IMO. (Still trying some stuff, but nothing seemed great at the moment)

Yeah, I can't find much use for the spearpoint and as a rule I try to fly unpopular ships to see if i can't make them work. Tensor field can be fun to fly with but I don't find it really useful as a combat skill. Targeting Telemetry will do more for you so what do I give up clusters or rockets and distortion field just so I can have shield projector? Then there's those minor components. I'd like someone to find a good use for this ship and share with the rest of us.

Yeah, I can't find much use for the spearpoint and as a rule I try to fly unpopular ships to see if i can't make them work. Tensor field can be fun to fly with but I don't find it really useful as a combat skill. Targeting Telemetry will do more for you so what do I give up clusters or rockets and distortion field just so I can have shield projector? Then there's those minor components. I'd like someone to find a good use for this ship and share with the rest of us.

Fun? I dunno. I fly it as my new main ship and I do quite well (worse than I used to do with my Nova, though).

Tensor is great offensive and defensive ability. Extra speed and turn rate kinda help at satellite fights and also while escaping ambushes and stuff. I use it mainly to buff myself, but usually when I pop it at node fight, we tend to win. It gives me chance to, somehow, be everywhere. I can literally go from B to A-fight just to drop a shield projector on my mateys there and rush back to B to keep defending against incoming attackers. I use speed upgrade on my Power Dive, so I have turn rate of a bus, and Tensor helps a lot with that. It has quite high uptime (40%?) so if I am responsible while it is on cooldown, I can line up some nice action for the 24s rush.

I don't know how my allies react on being buffed - I guess they won't refuse getting Shield Projector, but there are some (hi Armond) who don't like getting Tensor buff unexpectedly in mid-fight. I, on the other hand, love it, when I got buffed with my Nova it was the best 20 seconds of my GSF hisotry.

I think people might dislike it because it doesn't directly add nothing to one's offense or defense RNG (unless upgraded specifically). Instead, it gives a tool, 24 seconds is quite a lot of time and you can use it in many ways. I use it in a crowd fight somewhere, and people can: out-turn these pesky Stings, chase down the escaping enemies, close the gap to the gunship unexpectedly fast, move out to cap or defend far satellite, move out to collect a power-up and return swiftly, escape, manually break enemy lock attempts, and possibly more.

Compared to this, if they get buffed by Combat Command, they can... Shoot. Yup. That's about it. They've gotta fight.

And Repair Bots? Well, these are especially hard to use. You have NO idea about the state of your allies' ships. You can blindly pop it and hope for the best.

But still, the ship is indeed WORSE than any other ship (Comet Breaker and Dustmaker have the honor of being exception here). So if you fly for stats, stats and nothing else, it's a pass, but if you fly for fun, Spearpoint can do a good work. I think that the scout is even more "what you can make of it" than any other ship.

Opinion: These new support ships are pretty good. The Strike one is anyway.

Statement: The thing I don't like, is if you get stuck sitting next to a gunship or two or are trying to get to your ally strike/scout group to help keep them going, you get the "You aren't contributing" message. You then lose all your medals and points because you don't end up dealing damage. I had a TDM where I did that and got nothing because I was trying to keep my allies alive, and the other team was either dying or evading well, so I couldn't deal much damage.

Addendum: Same thing with not being able to target allies. That makes things really difficult. Especially when you are trying to get to someone specific, you accidentally go past them, and then you have no idea how far away you are from them until you turn to face them, which can take a while.