Beniboybling Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) Welcome folks, this is a project I began in 2013 and as the title suggests is an attempt to reboot it with fresh opinion, information and a more organised system of debate. The end result hopefully being a more accurate list with a greater degree of consensus. For those of you new to the project read on, and for those who are not, see what's changed! (Note, if you'd like to look at the previous state of the project, check out the old index thread.) The goal of the project is for the SWTOR community to come together to discuss in an organised debate who the real most powerful Force users are as opposed simply giving our personal opinions. The end result being a series of rankings cataloging in order of ability the most powerful Force users, dark siders (Sith) and light siders (Jedi) in the Star Wars universe. To be clear, I’m not asking for a list of who you think the most powerful Force users are. Instead we’ll be discussing candidates one by one in accordance with the structure that I have lain out below. First off it's important to make the decision making process clear, to ensure the discussion progresses smoothly and stays organised final decisions will be made by a council of prominent debaters on these forums, which consists of Myself, Aurbere and Selenial. The decision has to be unanimously accepted by all three of us and endorsed by at least two other participants in the discussion. This way we can ensure verdicts are made on merit and without bias. [iMPORTANT NOTE: The Council has been temporarily suspended, under the new system I will take over the responsibility of making the final verdict, the the Council's responsibilities in general. To balance this out however we will now require a total of three endorsements for any one character to be placed on the list.] Stage 1 – Choosing CandidatesFor each position on the list, from #1 through #10, we’ll start by getting suggestions from the community as to who they think could be potential candidates for the spot in question. In the end a maximum of four candidates will be chosen. We encourage people not simply to provide names, but to back up their recommendations with facts i.e. feats & accolades and other valid demonstrations of ability for everybody else to consider.Stage 2 – Making a ComparisonOnce the candidates have been chosen the council will convene to draw up a formal comparison (without verdicts) for the rest of the community to review. The comparison will split Force powers into the three formal spheres of ability, being Control, Sense and Alter, more information on what these categories entail can be found on Wookieepedia. This comparison will act as a framework for the ensuing discussion. NOTE: If it is obvious that only one candidate should be considered, we can jump straight to the verdict.Stage 3 – Reaching a DecisionAfter reviewing the comparison, the community is encouraged to provide reasoned argument concerning who they believe to be superior overall and/or in what categories, as well as provide additional feats, accolades etc. that may have been missed, in general how they believe they would be ranked, and their reasons for believing this. Once this discussion has run its course, it will be down to the council to reach a verdict. The chosen candidate will them be added to the list, and we’ll move on to the next, repeating the process.RULES OF THE DEBATE No trolling, flaming and personal attacks of any nature are permitted. Mature and constructive discussion is the only kind allowed, anything else will be ignored and reported. We also advise against aggressive debating. Those entirely without a corporeal form, and anything beyond the standard parameters of "mortals" or otherwise indefinable in power are not being considered, such as the Ones, Abeloth and Darth Nihilus. The characters in consideration are being taken in their most powerful incarnations, and only one incarnation can be nominated for the list e.g. Darth Caedus over Jacen Solo, Darth Vader over Anakin Skywalker. This is a post-4000 BBY list and therefore any Force users who died prior are not being considered as candidates, most importantly including ancient Sith. This is due to a lack of information on earlier periods. In general, characters lacking in sufficient material are not being considered. This list considers Legends & Canon material to be valid, including old post-ROTJ material and G-Canon statements. However Canon material specifically related to the portrayal of Force abilities takes precedence. The current state of the debate, including the rankings themselves, are listed below. Edited March 4, 2016 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) ================================================== RANKED CHARACTERS #1 Luke Skywalker / #2 Darth Sidious / #3 Valkorion / #4 Yoda / #5 Darth Plagueis / #6 Darth Caedus #7 Mother Talzin / #8 Darth Krayt / #9 Revan / #10 Darth Vader / #11 Starkiller / #12 Exar Kun #13 Cade Skywalker Complete comparisons and reasoning for each ranking can be found below. Current State of the Debate Candidates being chosen for #14Candidates being chosen for #13 Candidate(s) chosen for consideration: Kyp Durron, Darth Malgus, Cade Skywalker (& Arcann) Candidates being compared here and onwards. Candidate chosen, final verdict here: Cade Skywalker [endorsed by Rhyltran, cs_zoltan, tunewalker, Jarons, PadsterPwns, raandomname] Candidates being chosen for #12 Candidate(s) chosen for consideration: Exar Kun, Arcann, Kyp Durron Candidates being compared here and onwards. Candidates chosen, final verdict here: Exar Kun [advocated by cs_zoltan, tunewalker, Rhyltran] Candidates being chosen for #10 & #11 Candidate(s) chosen for consideration: Darth Vader, Starkiller, Exar Kun Candidates chosen, final verdict and reference material here: #10 Darth Vader #11 Starkiller [advocated by cs_zoltan, Jarons, Rhyltran] Candidates being chosen for #9 Candidate(s) chosen for consideration: Exar Kun, Starkiller, Vader, Revan Candidates being compared here and onwards. Candidate chosen, final verdict and reference material here: Revan [advocated by Rhyltran, SUPREMESKILLZ, ConVallian, MarcheseAMM] REVISION #3 Valkorion / #4 Yoda / #5 Darth Plagueis [Advocated by Rhyltran, MarcheseAMM] Final verdict and reference material can be found here. Candidates being chosen for #8 Candidate(s) chosen for consideration: Darth Krayt, Starkiller, Darth Vader (Exar Kun & Revan) Candidates being compared here and onward. Candidate chosen, final verdict and reference material here: Darth Krayt [advocated by cs_zoltan, Rhyltran.] Candidates being chosen for #7 Candidate(s) chosen for consideration: Mother Talzin Candidate chosen, final verdict here: Mother Talzin [advocated by Silenceo, cs_zoltan] Candidates being chosen for #6 Candidate(s) chosen for consideration: Darth Caedus, Mother Talzin Candidates being compared here and onward. Candidate chosen, final verdict and reference material here: Darth Caedus [advocated by LadyKulvax, cs-zoltan, Silenceo] Candidates being chosen for #5 Candidate(s) chosen for consideration: Sith Emperor, Darth Caedus, Mother Talzin Candidates being compared here and onward. Candidate chosen, final verdict and reference material here: Sith Emperor [advocated by cs_zoltan, Silenceo] Candidates being chosen for #4 Candidate(s) chosen for consideration: Sith Emperor, Darth Caedus, Darth Plagueis, Mother Talzin Candidates being compared here and onward. Candidate chosen, final verdict and reference material here: Darth Plagueis [advocated by Rhyltran, cs_zoltan] Candidates being considered for #3 Candidate(s) chosen for consideration: Yoda, Darth Caedus, Sith Emperor Candidates being compared here and onward. Argument for Yoda's superiority over Revan here. Candidate chosen, final verdict and reasoning here: Yoda [advocated by Rhyltran, cs_zoltan, tunewalker, Silenceo] Candidates being considered for #2 Candidate(s) chosen for consideration: Darth Sidious Candidate chosen, final verdict here: Darth Sidious Candidates being considered for #1 Candidate(s) chosen for consideration: Luke Skywalker Candidate chosen final verdict here: Luke Skywalker================================================== Edited March 4, 2016 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 What happened to the old template? Pretty sure Luke and Sidious are supposed to be at the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 What happened to the old template? Pretty sure Luke and Sidious are supposed to be at the top. Well technically speaking the only absolute statement we have concerning the most powerful Force users is Leland Chee in regards to the Father. So I decided to refrain, really though its only a formality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Well technically speaking the only absolute statement we have concerning the most powerful Force users is Leland Chee in regards to the Father. So I decided to refrain, really though its only a formality. I guess that's fair. So I put Luke at the top. Reasons being that he's already beaten the most powerful Sith Lord ever and only grew stronger afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) I agree, I also managed to find a respect thread on Luke Skywalker that unsurprisingly is very impressive: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/faymousinus/blog/luke-skywalker-respect-thread/98314/ Like stupidly impressive, the man tears down and rebuilds massive structures with the Force alone! Edited January 17, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I agree, I also managed to find a respect thread on Luke Skywalker that unsurprisingly is very impressive: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/faymousinus/blog/luke-skywalker-respect-thread/98314/ Like stupidly impressive, the man tears down and rebuilds massive structures with the Force alone! Oh, good, you found one. I was afraid I was going to have to list feats and such. That would take forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Is anyone actually against Luke and Sidious at the top? I guess that's where we should start, if anyone has issue with them then they can say, and we can start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Is anyone actually against Luke and Sidious at the top? I guess that's where we should start, if anyone has issue with them then they can say, and we can start. Would it be wrong if I answered that question with 'no one sane'? But, yeah, let's see what people have to say. I honestly feel they should have been placed at the top straight away. But we'll see what is said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) Well I introduced this in anticipation: NOTE: If it is obvious that only one candidate should be considered, we can jump straight to the verdict. So if the council is in agreement on Luke (and Sidious) all we need is endorsement from two others. I'm sure everyone will agree on Luke, but I expect some contention concerning Sidious, not that the arguments will be realistic. Edited January 17, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Would it be wrong if I answered that question with 'no one sane'? But, yeah, let's see what people have to say. I honestly feel they should have been placed at the top straight away. But we'll see what is said. Most certainly would not be wrong Especially given: Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known. Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history. Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting. When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history. "Rob Coleman wanted Yoda to feel the power of his enemy," says Wheless, "like a force he's never dealt with before." .... Yeh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Well I introduced this in anticipation: NOTE: If it is obvious that only one candidate should be considered, we can jump straight to the verdict. So if the council is in agreement on Luke (and Sidious) all we need is endorsement from two others. I'm sure everyone will agree on Luke, but I expect some contention concerning Sidious, not that the arguments will be realistic. I was actually thinking of suggesting that. Can't remember if I did or not, but at least it's out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Most certainly would not be wrong Especially given: Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known. Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history. Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting. When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history. "Rob Coleman wanted Yoda to feel the power of his enemy," says Wheless, "like a force he's never dealt with before." .... Yeh. *Insert Vitiate hype in encyclopedic medium here* *Insert Vitiate hype in SWTOR(game) here* *Insert release date argument here* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 inb4 Vitiate > Sidious Anyway yeah Luke and Sidi at top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcheseAMM Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Obviously you guys ignorance won't be broken, though I demand Vitiate to be ranked as the second most powerful Sith, and fourth in total I guess after Luke, Sidious, and Yoda. Following Vitiate should be Revan, then Jacen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Obviously you guys ignorance won't be broken, though I demand Vitiate to be ranked as the second most powerful Sith, and fourth in total I guess after Luke, Sidious, and Yoda. Following Vitiate should be Revan, then Jacen. Please read the OP for rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 inb4 Vitiate > Sidious Anyway yeah Luke and Sidi at top. OK, there's one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcheseAMM Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) I did, and obviously I transcend rules. I was merely giving you a list now just to let you guys know how you will go along with making the list, since you have clearly shown you can't do it alone *motions to the last list which was awful.* Edited January 17, 2015 by MarcheseAMM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Also what do you guys think about the TCW Quote saying Anakin is stronger than any known Jedi? Does that make him superior to Yoda? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcheseAMM Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Also what do you guys think about the TCW Quote saying Anakin is stronger than any known Jedi? Does that make him superior to Yoda? Show me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I did, and obviously I transcend rules. I was merely giving you a list now just to let you guys know how you will go along with making the list, since you have clearly shown you can't do it alone *motions to the last list which was awful.* No one transcends rules. Please follow them. This is your last warning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 Also what do you guys think about the TCW Quote saying Anakin is stronger than any known Jedi? Does that make him superior to Yoda? That was Obi-Wan to the spirit of Qui-Gon, correct? Well I think its most likely he was referring to his high midichlorian count, which was higher than Yoda's and any known Jedi as Kenobi says. Basically his potential, seeing as he didn't fulfill that potential I don't believe he became stronger than Yoda, but as someone yet to fulfill their full potential there's no telling what he could be capable of if pushed. P.S. Its also a character statement, so open to interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Also what do you guys think about the TCW Quote saying Anakin is stronger than any known Jedi? Does that make him superior to Yoda? What context is this said in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Show me. "He's more powerful than any known Jedi," Obi wan during his discussion with the ghost of Qui Gon Jinn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts