Okay, so this post is more of a rant about fellow players than it is about the design of Flashpoints

 

Time and time again I join a FP through Group Finder to find the DPS in the group want to play hop-skip along all sorts of ledges and crates to avoid any combat apart from the boss fights.

 

Now I'm at level 55, if I say anything about clearing content I just get standard responses of 'You don't need XP', 'They don't drop anything worthwhile', 'It's quicker to avoid.'

 

That last point is debatable, as typically the group gets spread out, will trigger at least one encounter accidentally and then wipe as they try to get closer to each other.

 

Personally, I've always found the runs I go on where the group stays together and focuses on taking down the mobs to be the ones that get through the FP quicker, with more of an understanding to the strengths/weaknesses of their group members. And with a few extra goodies at the end of it.

 

Maybe the devs could take note of this behaviour and design their next FP as a straight corridor with some hurdles and ledges with a boss fight at the end

 

Or at least reduce the 10min lock out because I left a group that wants to skip all the content, while I would prefer to play the game.

 

I would love to find a guild that had more of a focus on FPs rather than Operations, so else I wouldn't have to rely on GF so much.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Vhaegrant

The problem is, the FPs can get boring pretty quickly. Joining a guild is a good option. Check out your server-specific guild forum for options.

The problem is, the FPs can get boring pretty quickly. Joining a guild is a good option. Check out your server-specific guild forum for options.

 

I agree. Tell that to the devs who keep marrying the new story content to flashpoints...

IMO it is not ideal PvE design that players are incentivized to avoid playing the game as much as possible.

 

I wish devs would put more effort into addressing this in MMOs.

 

But simply making encounters unavoidable is no better — there's still no choice involved, so it simply becomes a tedious grindfest.

 

Instead, they should design trash better: incentivize people to want to kill stuff (ie, play the game...) even at max level.

Edited May 2, 2014 by SW_display_name

IMO it is not ideal PvE design that players are incentivized to avoid playing the game as much as possible.

 

I wish devs would put more effort into addressing this in MMOs.

 

But simply making encounters unavoidable is no better — there's still no choice involved, so it simply becomes a tedious grindfest.

 

Instead, they should design trash better: incentivize people to want to kill stuff (ie, play the game...) even at max level.

 

They could make it so that the more trash you killed getting to a boss the fewer resources the boss has to fight the group, at least on a couple of bosses. So like on a boss that has adds, maybe there are fewer adds if you killed the trash getting to him, but has more if you didn't.

My question is why are you running flashpoints at all? Not only do you not get xp, you don't get useful loot, or useful comms. I mean...there's simply no point for any of them (the 2 latest are an exception if you want the legacy gear tokens) outside achievement hunting.

 

I really am clueless why anyone bothers the tried and tired 55 HM FP's.

The problem is, the FPs can get boring pretty quickly. Joining a guild is a good option. Check out your server-specific guild forum for options.

 

Unfortunately I've yet to find a guild I gel with. My own playstyle is fairly casual, I have no interest in the end game gear grind or OPs progression. Most of this dislike is a carry over from previous MMOs so is not entirely SWTORs fault but I still see the same issues with trying to co-ordinate a sizable group of adults together at the same time.

 

I would like to dip my toe more frequently into FPs, I freely admit I don't do them that often, so the appeal to me is to clear them from start to finish. The enemy are there to be defeated not squeezed by and ignored. While I recognise there are players out there that burn themselves out running the same FPs over and over in easy mode to get the Basic coms (it can't be for the gear, most of them are in near BiS gear, so they obviously have an OP slot or use their credits to buy crafted mods).

 

The guilds I've been in have been friendly but mostly focused on end game progression of OPs, a typical scenario would be a handful of lower level players on (alt levelling) and then come OP night the ranks swell and then dissipate as soon as the OP is over. There is very little casual retention of guild numbers for casual activities.

 

Or the guilds just dwindle as the OPs group loses core players and fails to pick up/ go back and help equip new members. Of the 12 people I started SWTOR with there's just 1 left and he lets his membership lapse for long periods of time.

 

I did have a long list of good players I'd grouped with over the years (Here since day one of early access) but this list rarely sees any one active now. Players have real life intervene, summer months role around, they get their character story finished and after a while go on to roll an alt or drift off to other games. (Not to mention a pet peeve of how difficult the game makes it to communicate with the player behind the character, I have a real life address book to keep track of players and characters because there is no ability to communicate between faction or to other characters in legacy)

 

While the OP is probably more rant than I would have liked it does seem to reflect poor correlation between what many players want (easy immediate rewards with next to no effort) and level design where large chunks of content can be bypassed (this bypassing is made even easier if you have a stealthy cc'er in the group to stun mobs that happen to be in the way)

My question is why are you running flashpoints at all? Not only do you not get xp, you don't get useful loot, or useful comms. I mean...there's simply no point for any of them (the 2 latest are an exception if you want the legacy gear tokens) outside achievement hunting.

 

I really am clueless why anyone bothers the tried and tired 55 HM FP's.

 

Some people like to run them, some have story elements that people like to go for, others just find it easier to find a small group or they are doing it with friends or they are helping a guildie run them for the first time. Plenty of reasons.

Some people like to run them, some have story elements that people like to go for, others just find it easier to find a small group or they are doing it with friends or they are helping a guildie run them for the first time. Plenty of reasons.

 

 

Plus for people still gearing up there is the weekly that grants elite and ultimate comms.

My question is why are you running flashpoints at all? Not only do you not get xp, you don't get useful loot, or useful comms. I mean...there's simply no point for any of them (the 2 latest are an exception if you want the legacy gear tokens) outside achievement hunting.

 

I really am clueless why anyone bothers the tried and tired 55 HM FP's.

 

The GF daily and weekly rewards are a good source of Basic coms, which are one of the few ways to get Vials of Isotope-5 in game (35 basic coms a piece), which are a component for top craftable mods (8 per mod) and thus sell for a reasonable return on the GTN. (On Red Eclipse the price doubled and has settled down to a 50% increase (approx. 120,000 creds) since the level of craftable mods was raised in 2.7.

I'm of two minds. On the one side, yes it is nice to skip some stuff and complete the FP in 20 minutes or so. Most my toon don't really need anything from the FP but some credits and some comms. That being said, some groups are very focused on skipping every single thing possible to the point where it becomes a liability if a mistake is made, or someone stands in the wrong place, and aggro's a trash mob either running back or during a boss fight. Some times it is faster to just kill the trash mob than avoid it.

Instead, they should design trash better: incentivize people to want to kill stuff (ie, play the game...) even at max level.

But they did with many leveling FPs and 55HMFPs: kill X mobs/do Y things and gain access to a bonus boss. The problem is that the incentive is no longer incentive enough.

 

With regard to leveling FPs, it is more time efficient to run multiple FPs and get the comms to acquire the mods one wants rather than "jumping through all the hoops" to get the bonus boss and a chance to get the item one wants. The only way doing the bonus boss makes any sense is if the item that drops has a specific appearance a player really wants. In which case, that player could simply wait until the character can solo the FP (overlevel it by ten or so levels) so that the one player's desire does not conflict with anyone else.

 

With regard to level cap FPs, should they increase the incentive periodically - i.e. improve the loot table from the bonus bosses so that players are more likely to want to engage them? The flaw in that is that when the 55HMFPs were new the bonus boss was also (and more properly) known as the "challenge" boss; the mechanics were designed to be difficult to overcome (those bosses are mostly a situational awareness check but gear helps). So if the loot table is re-incentivized but the "challenge" is not increased then the bonus boss becomes nothing more than a loot pinata.

 

I'm of two minds. On the one side, yes it is nice to skip some stuff and complete the FP in 20 minutes or so. Most my toon don't really need anything from the FP but some credits and some comms. That being said, some groups are very focused on skipping every single thing possible to the point where it becomes a liability if a mistake is made, or someone stands in the wrong place, and aggro's a trash mob either running back or during a boss fight. Some times it is faster to just kill the trash mob than avoid it.

 

And this

Edited May 2, 2014 by psandak

IMO it is not ideal PvE design that players are incentivized to avoid playing the game as much as possible.

 

I wish devs would put more effort into addressing this in MMOs.

 

But simply making encounters unavoidable is no better — there's still no choice involved, so it simply becomes a tedious grindfest.

 

Instead, they should design trash better: incentivize people to want to kill stuff (ie, play the game...) even at max level.

 

Couldn't agree more.

Most players I seem to hit FPs with see it as an investment purely of time rather than enjoyment. The only statement I see more than 'Skip Trash' in FPS is 'Use Spacebar'.

 

Somewhere in the transition from board-game to computer game (especially persistent games such as MMOs) many gamers have lost the desire to play a game simply because they enjoy it and now feel they have to be paid (rewards, drops, gear) for their time.

they could add rep gains from killing trash(they allready love rep grinds so why not?)

and they could add rare or extremely rare pets that could drop from trash in any fp

 

it would be really boring if there where no trash then they might aswell just have 1 big room and have the bosses line up and wait for you to kill them.

Section X rewards 25 basic comms per week, if you do the daily and weekly 1 time. Go back every day and get 10 more basic comms a day. A FP gives you 6 basic comms...so FPs are on the losing end of that discussion. If you really have enough time to do both (dailies and FPs), then do dailies with a second toon. Or third. But dailies would be the smarter way to spend the same amount of time.

 

Looking at the weekly for 3 HM FPs it rewards 12 ultimate comms. Or you can run EV HM 1 time, and get those same 12 comms in 30 minutes. Once again...FPs are on the losing end of this discussion. I still see no point.

 

To the OP's point, those running FP's should be doing so because they are "fun". Not for gear, not loot, not rewards, but some emotional reason. Therefore, trash pulls should be part of the fun, and I would agree they shouldn't be skipped.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Kurin

They put trash mobs in because you do naughty things to yourself at night.

They put trash mobs in because you do naughty things to yourself at night.

 

Hmmm, then they are missing quite a few trash mobs when I run them

They put trash mobs in because you do naughty things to yourself at night.

Doesn't everyone?

 

But they did with many leveling FPs and 55HMFPs: kill X mobs/do Y things and gain access to a bonus boss. The problem is that the incentive is no longer incentive enough.

Which just indicates they need to design better incentives.

 

With regard to leveling FPs, it is more time efficient to run multiple FPs and get the comms to acquire the mods one wants rather than "jumping through all the hoops" to get the bonus boss and a chance to get the item one wants.

In leveling FPs no one cares about the loot drop, you kill the Bonus Boss because it's part of the Bonus Mission which is so much XP that it's absolutely worth taking a little extra time to unlock it. Very few leveling FPs even have bonus bosses, though — I think it's basically just BP / Foundry. Edited May 2, 2014 by SW_display_name

Doesn't everyone?

 

Yes and that is why there is Trash in instances... Everywhere.

Yes and that is why there is Trash in instances... Everywhere.

 

Oh, so now you're blaming us naughty players for not taking out the trash, I see how it is

They could make it so that the more trash you killed getting to a boss the fewer resources the boss has to fight the group, at least on a couple of bosses. So like on a boss that has adds, maybe there are fewer adds if you killed the trash getting to him, but has more if you didn't.

 

Or, better yet, make it so that if yo don't kill those mobs along the way, they become aggro-ed when the boss is aggro-ed and come storming in during the fight.

Oh, so now you're blaming us naughty players for not taking out the trash, I see how it is

 

Someone had to bring up the issue.

Not even going to touch the euphemisms that "taking out the trash" makes me imagine.

 

Or, better yet, make it so that if yo don't kill those mobs along the way, they become aggro-ed when the boss is aggro-ed and come storming in during the fight.

The problem with this is, now it's not a choice — you're forcing people to kill trash, which IMO is as bad as essentially forcing them to skip it (because they have no justifiable incentive to 'waste' time doing so).

 

An elegant design would create a tension between "I want this done fast" and "But I want to kill them too...", encouraging players to make a decision, and not making any one member seem like a burden for wanting to proceed normally (ie, "Well, I wanted to skip/be quick, but since we're killing, I'm cool about it because at least I get ??? out of it").

 

I don't claim to have a magic design that fits those criteria, but hypothetically that would be the best solution — you can skip, but you're sacrificing something meaningful to gain that speed advantage.