P2W TAKES OUT ALL THE CHALLENGE TO GET REWARD! G2W DOESN'T!

Okay, you're saying that P2W doesn't have challenge, and that grind 2 win does. So let me think: what does grind to win have that pay to win doesn't? .... grinding. So if you're saying that P2W doesn't have challenge but G2W does, you're telling me that grinding is the challenge. And if this game is about who has the most time on their hands... then... gah thank God halo 4 just came out so I have something to run back to.

BOTTOM LINE: Your point only works if you're admitting to PvP (NOTE: Player vs Player) being about measuring the time the player has grinded, and not his or her skill. The former goes against anyone's doctrine on the matter and the latter invalidates your point

Take a step back for a second, and forget "what' the challenge is. There is a challenge, and there is a reward. If you buy the reward, you didn't complete the challenges. It would be like paying five bucks for mario to save the princess... pointless.

Back on topic... you don't like the grind, we got it. Yet you can not say the "grind" is not one of this games challenges. Most xbox games have a kill X achievement in them. It's not the kind of challenge you like, but it is a challenge. Also, yes the gear reward for pvp is a bad reward... but it's how the game works.

Once again, if you consider the tasks you have to complete "work" rather than playing, you're playing the wrong game. =P your in luck, Halo 4 just came out right?

Take a step back for a second, and forget "what' the challenge is. There is a challenge, and there is a reward. If you buy the reward, you didn't complete the challenges. It would be like paying five bucks for mario to save the princess... pointless.

 

Back on topic... you don't like the grind, we got it. Yet you can not say the "grind" is not one of this games challenges. Most xbox games have a kill X achievement in them. It's not the kind of challenge you like, but it is a challenge. Also, yes the gear reward for pvp is a bad reward... but it's how the game works.

 

Once again, if you consider the tasks you have to complete "work" rather than playing, you're playing the wrong game. =P your in luck, Halo 4 just came out right?

Okay, time to simplify all games or competitions challenges to a simple formula:

You input an X value. For Halo 'tis skill. For this game I hope/wish it was skill

You do a mathematical process. This changes and allows you to measure a new value. For Halo 'tis the gameplay of shooting people up. For this game I hope/wish it is knowing your class, and strategically gearing up by weighting your stats.

You output a Y value. For Halo 'tis victory, xp, bragging rights, and that warm feeling I get . For this game it's victory, xp, bragging rights, and WZ comms

Or, the analogy I wub moar is a science experiment, I'll explain why I love this one more:

You change an independent variable. See X values from above.

You do a scientific procedure. See process from above.

You measure a dependent variable. See Y values from above.

the reason I love this is because you don't complain that someone is more skillful in Halo, stronger in Football, or more ____ in TOR. This is the point. You change an independent variable. you're finding it's effect on the dependent variable. It's supposed to change. As a result, the dependent variable changes.

So a question arises: what's the independent variable? Are we changing skill or gear? Remember, you can only change one thing! If we're measuring gear, then you cannot complain that someone has better gear - thats like complaining about someone who has more skill in a rational competitive game. If this is so, then one who has the better gear should always win because math does not lie. This is, however, not the case.

TL;DR You're wrong.

TADSM (That Answer Didn't Satisfy Me): Games measure one thing and keep the rest as constants. What does SWTOR change?

TL;DR You're wrong.

TADSM (That Answer Didn't Satisfy Me): Games measure one thing and keep the rest as constants. What does SWTOR change?

Your question is why is P2W bad? All you just wrote is wasted breath. Pay to Win is bad because it bypasses whatever challenge you have to complete in game, and gives you the rewards.

Sure, let's say the challenge in Halo is skill. Pay to win means you'd buy a victory.

*rolls eyes* Let's say the challenge in ToR is time invested (cause knowing your class, customizing your gear, forming a team, working strategy... etc... has nothing to do with who wins). Pay to Win bypasses time invested and gives you the rewards.

So why is P2W bad? Because it renders the game pointless. Whether it's "skill" or "time invested" that is required for the challenge of the game, handing over money from an out of game activity bypasses that, and gives you the rewards. Like I said, it's like paying 5 bucks so you can see Mario save the Princess.

Your question is why is P2W bad? All you just wrote is wasted breath. Pay to Win is bad because it bypasses whatever challenge you have to complete in game, and gives you the rewards.

 

Sure, let's say the challenge in Halo is skill. Pay to win means you'd buy a victory.

*rolls eyes* Let's say the challenge in ToR is time invested (cause knowing your class, customizing your gear, forming a team, working strategy... etc... has nothing to do with who wins). Pay to Win bypasses time invested and gives you the rewards.

 

So why is P2W bad? Because it renders the game pointless. Whether it's "skill" or "time invested" that is required for the challenge of the game, handing over money from an out of game activity bypasses that, and gives you the rewards. Like I said, it's like paying 5 bucks so you can see Mario save the Princess.

P2W means you skip the grind. there is no grind in halo. P2W is stupid. I agree, but so is grinding in the first place. I'm trying to show you that there's no rational difference except one is money and the other is time. They both bypass skill.

you lose.

P2W means you skip the grind. there is no grind in halo. P2W is stupid. I agree, but so is grinding in the first place. I'm trying to show you that there's no rational difference except one is money and the other is time. They both bypass skill.

 

you lose.

<.<

If that's your point, then go ahead and make it, but your question was why is P2W bad. If you can't comprehend that some games take different skill then twitch-reactions that's fine, but P2W is still bypassing challenges in game for rewards.

Still... you don't like what's required in this game, is cool. It's not for everyone. Go play something else. Fact remains, P2W still renders games pointless, which is what you were asking about.

I think the integrity of the game is at stake if one is paying for gear instead of actually playing the game the way its meant to be played.

This may be the case for PvE where gear progression is actually relevant to content progression. However, in PvP, I don't think the integrity of the game would be impacted in a negative way at all. In the end, gear progression in SWTOR PvP is simply a matter of time spent. That's why it fits so well within the area of Convenience.

Oddly enough, it could be argued that an option of this sort would actually help the integrity of PvP in this game. Real PvPers just want good fights anyway and the current gear gap is an obstacle to these happening at times. Since many players dislike the gear grind and bemoan the gear gap, they would have an opportunity to put their money where their mouth is.

And the claim that these peeps would become instant winners because of this is absurd. Trust me, a large lot of players in this game are just bad. All the gear in the world won't help them succeed. The idea that you will Win in PvP just because you can gear up with CC is absurd. Bad players are bad and would still get smoked even in Elite War Hero Uber Jedi PWN Gear. BW will just be that much richer and we won't have to listen to the gear grind/gap excuses anymore.

Everyone has the same amount of time huh? So the guy with a full time job has the same amount of time available as the unemployed people that can play all day?

Yes, both only get 24 hours a day. I know, science is hard. What a person chooses to do with their 24 hours a day is up to them. If the guy likes having a job because it gives him disposable income he can spend on rent, food, sex, family, friends, etc. then that is his choice. If the unemployed guy wants to spend all his time playing SWTOR he can, but he won't enjoy having disposable income he can spend on friends, sex, food, rent, sex, family, sex.

Yes, both only get 24 hours a day. I know, science is hard. What a person chooses to do with their 24 hours a day is up to them. If the guy likes having a job because it gives him disposable income he can spend on rent, food, sex, family, friends, etc. then that is his choice. If the unemployed guy wants to spend all his time playing SWTOR he can, but he won't enjoy having disposable income he can spend on friends, sex, food, rent, sex, family, sex.

Smash that is the most *** backward logic I have ever read. Time = Money. That is logic. Why do you have such an issue with people wanting to P2C. Pay to COMPETE. Nothing in this game would let players who PAY have an advantage over those who don't (if both subscribers). If anything it could make them EQUAL.

If you are skilled this will NOT matter.

This may be the case for PvE where gear progression is actually relevant to content progression. However, in PvP, I don't think the integrity of the game would be impacted in a negative way at all. In the end, gear progression in SWTOR PvP is simply a matter of time spent. That's why it fits so well within the area of Convenience.

 

Oddly enough, it could be argued that an option of this sort would actually help the integrity of PvP in this game. Real PvPers just want good fights anyway and the current gear gap is an obstacle to these happening at times. Since many players dislike the gear grind and bemoan the gear gap, they would have an opportunity to put their money where there mouth is.

 

And the claim that these peeps would become instant winners because of this is absurd. Trust me, a large lot of players in this game are just bad. All the gear in the world won't help them succeed. The idea that you will Win in PvP just because you can gear up with CC is absurd. Bad players are bad and would still get smoked even in Elite War Hero Uber Jedi PWN Gear. BW will just be that much richer and we won't have to listen to the gear grind/gap excuses anymore.

Except that when you have two equally skilled teams playing, but one team has richer parents/higher income/whatever and the other team doesn't, then the team with more money gets out ahead whenever a new tier of gear comes out. They will be able to all instantly buy the brand new tier of gear, where the other equally skilled team has to grind it out. When these two equally skilled teams face off in RWZs, the better geared team wins 100% of the time.

Smash that is the most *** backward logic I have ever read. Time = Money. That is logic. Why do you have such an issue with people wanting to P2C. Pay to COMPETE. Nothing in this game would let players who PAY have an advantage over those who don't (if both subscribers). If anything it could make them EQUAL.

 

If you are skilled this will NOT matter.

Maybe you should read my other comments about how P2W will essentially FORCE the most competitive players to buy gear every time a new tier comes out in order to compete. This type of pay2win will ruin any ladder/ranking system BW intends to implement when RWZ seasons roll out.

Except that when you have two equally skilled teams playing, but one team has richer parents/higher income/whatever and the other team doesn't, then the team with more money gets out ahead whenever a new tier of gear comes out. They will be able to all instantly buy the brand new tier of gear, where the other equally skilled team has to grind it out. When these two equally skilled teams face off in RWZs, the better geared team wins 100% of the time.

Disagree. The people who play all the time will still have the advantage and will earn the gear.

Disagree. The people who play all the time will still have the advantage and will earn the gear.

Yes, because they play more. That's fine. You put more effort into something, u should be rewarded over someone who hasn't put as much effort into it. That also has nothing to do with what I wrote.

Yes, because they play more. That's fine. You put more effort into something, u should be rewarded over someone who hasn't put as much effort into it. That also has nothing to do with what I wrote.

Yes it does. You are saying people can pay and stomp on people. That has never and will never be the case. People stomp on people all the time now as it is.

If something will bring players and revenue into the game, I am for it. I have no lack of confidence in my abilities when I hit the queue button.

Except that when you have two equally skilled teams playing, but one team has richer parents/higher income/whatever and the other team doesn't, then the team with more money gets out ahead whenever a new tier of gear comes out. They will be able to all instantly buy the brand new tier of gear, where the other equally skilled team has to grind it out. When these two equally skilled teams face off in RWZs, the better geared team wins 100% of the time.

This is a good point as it could actually lead to P2W if not properly handled. It would therefore be in BW's best interest not to introduce such items into the Store until sufficient time had passed for their standard gameplay acquisition. From a Sales point of view, they could even introduce the items individually over a pre-determined period of time.

So a good objection, but easily remedied. BW would just have to define and maintain the line of Convenience, Not Advantage regarding these items and their normal gameplay acquisition.

And the claim that these peeps would become instant winners because of this is absurd. Trust me, a large lot of players in this game are just bad. All the gear in the world won't help them succeed. The idea that you will Win in PvP just because you can gear up with CC is absurd. Bad players are bad and would still get smoked even in Elite War Hero Uber Jedi PWN Gear. BW will just be that much richer and we won't have to listen to the gear grind/gap excuses anymore.

I tend to agree, though true P2W (which is what is being discussed) is items being sold that can not be received in game (or if they are available, the amount of effort to get them is so much... it's literally not possible.)

For Example:

Perfect World International has a refining system for gear, where you use a mirage celestone (uncomon item) and attempt to get a +1 on to an item (Which adds damage or Hp depending on the type of item.) Each refine adds another +1 (so +1, +2, +3, +4...) up to +12.

Now the first +1 is like a 33% chance, but the second is 20%. If you -fail- a refine attempt, the item resets to zero. The third +1 (+3) is like 5%, and +4 is down to (1%)... and it keeps getting worse. Anyone one can tell getting above a +4 with limited mirage stones is next to impossible. Yet the cash shop sells Dragon orbs, which guarantee a refine up to the level of the orb. So to get the maximum refine (12) Your have to buy a Dragon Orb 1, Dragin Orb 2, Dragon Orb 3... all the way up. (Literally a few hundred dollars.) The difference on an item +3 (possible for free) or +8 (must buy orbs) is -noticeable.- Like +50 hp vs. +300 hp.

Then there is the gear. Gear doesn't drop from Instances, only pieces for it (both common and rare mats.) Rare mats have a drop rate down in the 1-2% and you need 2 of them... even worse... everyone needs 2 of them so there is constant fighting over who gets it. Of course, you can -buy- those rare mats... A bit expensive, but even at minimum wage you could still afford those rare mats in 1/20th the time it would take to farm them.

To tie into my earlier arguments, P2W takes the challenges out of the game and gives you the rewards. PWI didn't start that bad, they just got worse and worse, starting with just selling currency and a few exp boosts to finally selling gear you literally could not get by playing the game.

You do realize the game is p2w once f2p comes out. You MUST spend money OR pay a sub for the simple privilege of equipping best gear- meaning, f2p CANNOT ever be as powerful as someone who has paid.

Unless you can earn cartel coins somehow in game.

You do realize the game is p2w once f2p comes out. You MUST spend money OR pay a sub for the simple privilege of equipping best gear- meaning, f2p CANNOT ever be as powerful as someone who has paid.

 

Unless you can earn cartel coins somehow in game.

<.< Ya... I think the Dev/Exec who decided f2p's can't equip certian gear needs to be smacked upside the head. That being said... it -is- suppose to be a subscription based game. As someone else mentioned, f2p is more like an extended trial.

I worry for this game, I really do.

This is a good point as it could actually lead to P2W if not properly handled. It would therefore be in BW's best interest not to introduce such items into the Store until sufficient time had passed for their standard gameplay acquisition. From a Sales point of view, they could even introduce the items individually over a pre-determined period of time.

 

So a good objection, but easily remedied. BW would just have to define and maintain the line of Convenience, Not Advantage regarding these items and their normal gameplay acquisition.

Then it's not really pay2win anymore if you delay when the gear gets put up on the cash shop long enough that everyone's "main" has had a chance to grind it out normally. I would love to be able to buy gears for all my 50s since I love rolling alts, but don't have the time to spend gearing them ALL up.

<.< Ya... I think the Dev/Exec who decided f2p's can't equip certian gear needs to be smacked upside the head. That being said... it -is- suppose to be a subscription based game. As someone else mentioned, f2p is more like an extended trial.

 

I worry for this game, I really do.

With epics though- you cannot win at level 50 pvp and might not even be accepted in HMs.

Never mind lack of extra quickbars- which in pvp is a pretty nasty thing to handle (two at least lets you use most of your combat abilities- if they'd went with one they'd have completely screwed everyone over).

Thing is- f2p is supposed to be enticing. While this f2p may indeed encourage people who like it to get a sub- even a slight glance over tells you paying in the f2p model is a very bad idea in this game unless you're an extreme casual who doesn't really like dungeons or pvp. Now- you might say 'well obviously SWTOR wants people to sub', but that is very poor decision making. All f2p games that have made money have done so off of the f2p- being f2p is actually appealing in other games and encourages you to be f2p AND spend money. This game though is pretty unappealing to play as a f2p while paying money.

This may be the case for PvE where gear progression is actually relevant to content progression. However, in PvP, I don't think the integrity of the game would be impacted in a negative way at all. In the end, gear progression in SWTOR PvP is simply a matter of time spent. That's why it fits so well within the area of Convenience.

 

Oddly enough, it could be argued that an option of this sort would actually help the integrity of PvP in this game. Real PvPers just want good fights anyway and the current gear gap is an obstacle to these happening at times. Since many players dislike the gear grind and bemoan the gear gap, they would have an opportunity to put their money where their mouth is.

 

And the claim that these peeps would become instant winners because of this is absurd. Trust me, a large lot of players in this game are just bad. All the gear in the world won't help them succeed. The idea that you will Win in PvP just because you can gear up with CC is absurd. Bad players are bad and would still get smoked even in Elite War Hero Uber Jedi PWN Gear. BW will just be that much richer and we won't have to listen to the gear grind/gap excuses anymore.

Hey man, thanks for keeping it civil. I see what you are saying here. I actually agree with you. Personally, I fundamentally dislike any gear progression in pvp. In my opinion, they should have kept that in pve. If pvp has to have any progression it has to be in ranking numbers, or titles alone, not gear. However, I have to disagree with the solution you are proposing. Just step back and think about it for one second. You said that implementing this idea of people having the ability to pay for gear will equalize the level playing field, thus, as you say, strengthen the integrity of the pvp game. My problem with this is - why do you have to pay in the first place? If gear equality is what you are after then why not just redesign the game based on that concept? Implementing this idea will make it look like bioware is very underhanded creating a self inflicted gear inequality just for people to pay to equalize it. I hope you understand where I'm getting at.

to tho whining about losing the achievement of getting the gear: ii am not a retarded little kid that has nothing in his life to feel good about himself and need virtual game challenges to feel good about myself, not to say that grinding isnt a challenge since even a mentally handicapped person can do it.

Some people simply want equal footing in pvp now

to tho whining about losing the achievement of getting the gear: ii am not a retarded little kid that has nothing in his life to feel good about himself and need virtual game challenges to feel good about myself, not to say that grinding isnt a challenge since even a mentally handicapped person can do it.

Some people simply want equal footing in pvp now

It has been mentioned before in this thread. It's got nothing to do with people liking the grind, if gear equality is what Bioware shoots for, then give out WH or BM armour for free.

Making subscribers pay twice for the game to be competative is counterproductive and will end in the death of SWTOR.

*** happened with this thread?

Reading this makes my eyes bleed, and it seems like the Grind-2-Win people are still refusing to understand the viewpoint of the other side...

P2W means you aren't playing the game to beat it's challenges and get it's rewards, you're paying to skip it's challenges and get it's rewards.

First, stop calling it P2W, P2W is when you get gear which you cannot get by playing the game normally.

Second, I do not understand why you Grind-2-Win people still keep posting stuff like this. We all already get it, for you, the "challenge" of the game is for you to keep playing the game a lot.

For some of you, the reward is getting a +5 to your stats, because then you finally get to feel like you managed to accomplish something in your life.

For others, you simply suck at the game and the reward is that you can finally be competitive in the game because of your gear advantage.

If G2W was removed from the game, then you know that you would instantly lose the only advantage you have, which is time, and you know that in a Skill-2-Win system it will be impossible for you to keep up with other players.

For the Skill-2-Win people, the challenge of the game is in learning to become better at it, and the reward is either overcoming that challenge, or just simply having fun while going for it.

As long as Grind-2-Win is in the game, it is bad for all S2W people, because regardless of what the quality our gear is, there are always people with either better or worse gear than what we have.

I won't bother making more replies to this thread, have a nice day.

*** happened with this thread?

 

Reading this makes my eyes bleed, and it seems like the Grind-2-Win people are still refusing to understand the viewpoint of the other side...

 

 

First, stop calling it P2W, P2W is when you get gear which you cannot get by playing the game normally.

 

Second, I do not understand why you Grind-2-Win people still keep posting stuff like this. We all already get it, for you, the "challenge" of the game is for you to keep playing the game a lot.

For some of you, the reward is getting a +5 to your stats, because then you finally get to feel like you managed to accomplish something in your life.

For others, you simply suck at the game and the reward is that you can finally be competitive in the game because of your gear advantage.

If G2W was removed from the game, then you know that you would instantly lose the only advantage you have, which is time, and you know that in a Skill-2-Win system it will be impossible for you to keep up with other players.

 

For the Skill-2-Win people, the challenge of the game is in learning to become better at it, and the reward is either overcoming that challenge, or just simply having fun while going for it.

As long as Grind-2-Win is in the game, it is bad for all S2W people, because regardless of what the quality our gear is, there are always people with either better or worse gear than what we have.

 

I won't bother making more replies to this thread, have a nice day.

This pretty much sums it up, but I guess people like gear diversity in wzs? Personally I'd like everyone to be on even footing stat wise and make it skill based.