They even said before the new expac hit off that it will be story driven with no new raids. MAYBE we'll get one once the new main story is over, but that's just a maybe.

I mean really, why is this still a big thing? I think it was a great idea revamping all new dungeons/raids for max level, made a lot of people come back and even got the eyes of new people.

If you just play this game for raids then you're playing the wrong MMO.

They even said before the new expac hit off that it will be story driven with no new raids. MAYBE we'll get one once the new main story is over, but that's just a maybe.

 

I mean really, why is this still a big thing? I think it was a great idea revamping all new dungeons/raids for max level, made a lot of people come back and even got the eyes of new people.

 

If you just play this game for raids then you're playing the wrong MMO.

Sorry 1/10 not really worth discussing with you....

They even said before the new expac hit off that it will be story driven with no new raids. MAYBE we'll get one once the new main story is over, but that's just a maybe.

 

I mean really, why is this still a big thing? I think it was a great idea revamping all new dungeons/raids for max level, made a lot of people come back and even got the eyes of new people.

 

If you just play this game for raids then you're playing the wrong MMO.

It's fairly clear you're not going to care either way but I'll drop a bit of information on you.

Some gamers think that decision was a mistake and it is indeed hurting the game to rely so much on story.

Back when we had more story (and class story that everyone really wanted not this one story for all half arse thing were getting) we found out rather quickly story isn't enough to carry this MMO. It went F2P faster than all other MMO's save one I can think of. So relying on story so much is a mistake.

That is not to say there should be no story as that is just one piece of the overall puzzle in MMO's.

Reliance on content that is 4 years old is another mistake. Reliance on OPS that are 1 or more years old and some since launch is another mistake. Rehashing old content has never been very acceptable in MMO no matter what MMO it is. SWTOR is not immune to that and it's seen as cheap.

New end game content is a piece of the puzzle that cannot be ignored. Be that FP's and OPS and PVP areas.

You cannot rely on story to carry the game which we learned nor can you rely so rehashed content as it's not very acceptable to most gamers for the money paid.. There must be new content to do and BW currently is failing in that area.

EC is a good start but has a massively limited lifespan at this point. So, pushing back OPS and end game group content is why some are mad.

It's just not healthy for the game. It's a puzzle with missing pieces and the picture is messed up with those pieces gone and what do you eventually do with a puzzle that has missing pieces? You eventually trash it over time because it not worth dealing with and the picture is screwed up without them. Each in their own time will have to decide when that is and how long they can stand it.

Even knowing up front doesn't make things easier to swallow.

In MMOs, somebody is always pissed about something.

Some express it better, and more productively then others. And I'm sure the studio actually reads what they have to say and factors that in to their thinking. The raging lunacy role play though.... largely ignored by studios IMO.

The important thing in a gaming forum is to listen to what is said and when it goes to the raging lunacy quadrant, push back objectively and forcefully yet politely .... otherwise they think they are the only voice of "alleged reason".

In some ways, I think MMOs are tailor made for angry whiners. They love a soap box and what better soap box then a multiplayer game and it's gaming forum. And if it is something they plop down the price of three lattes to play per month.. oh boy....stand back as the vomit spews as paid vomit appears to some to be legitimate vomit and potent as well.

There's also the fact that kotfe is terrible, and doesn't justify not having actual MMO content in anyway.

That's not a fact, that's an opinion

That's not a fact, that's an opinion

^ Indeed.

Cleverly presented as though it was a fact though.

I came to terms with "no new ops" a long time ago.

I just wish there was more new "repeatable" content in this release. Even setting aside operations, it would have been pretty keen to have more flashpoints, or more heroics, or more daily areas, or more events, or more variety in the KotFE story to bring alts through, etc.

I suppose it will help now that there's new PvP maps, and it will help a bit more when TEC finally hits live.

There's also the fact that kotfe is terrible, and doesn't justify not having actual MMO content in anyway.

Yup. My force leaping Commando thought the story took a strange twist last night...

We used to get story content AND actual MMO content - Makeb, Rishi, Yavin, Ziost, CZ-198, Oricon...KOTFE really blew it on non-force using characters with 12.

Because some people haven't figured out that raids are actually really bloody boring too and still buy the lie that raid or die gear treadmills are what mmo gaming is all about.

Hamsters addicted to the process of pulling levers in specific sequences to get food pellets is what some of them are.

Now, the sequence has changed, and some of them aren't adapting well. They like to attempt to justify this by declaring that food pellets meant more when they had to pull the levers the old familiar way they were comfortable with; they it was objectively better because their subjective experience with the new way isn't what they were conditioned to expect, accept and even want.

All that's really changed is that, now, you can pull the levers and get your food pellets yourself much more easily.

Some hate that too, seemingly on the premise that they don't know themselves how to be worth anything to others without systems forcing others to play with them. Now that we can get food pellets very well by ourselves, I think the fear has set in deep for some that now, others will have to WANT to play with them to bother to do so, and few to none might want to do that with nothing forcing anyone to have to.

I know I've seen some hilarious meltdowns supporting all of these speculatives, though don't expect the guilty to see their own problems realistically, let alone in such stark and unsympathetic fashions.

They have their perceptions swaddled up in justifications and rationalizations galore, from pretensions of noble calling to conceits of how vital it is to mmo communities that even non raiders have the Raiders to look up to and admire from afar.

They often believe that they're the most driven, most committed, most loyal, most dedicated and most worthy of being serviced by changes made to a given game, and bioware throwing the future of raiding into the trash is not only a slap to their pretentions, but one delivered by a twenty ton wrecking ball.

Despite their every claim and prediction, the game continues to thrive.

Despite their feverish obsessions with trying to prove that snubbing their favorite way of getting food pellets is the immediate path to complete failure of an mmo, the entire mmo industry continues to move away from catering to their playstyle, and this mmo in particular has flatly slapped it off the table.

The fact that nothing immediately died is likely the worst thing they can imagine, and the fact that the game continues to shuffle along on its stumbling path of persistent mediocrity as ever it has, the most offensive of all things to them.

Because it is proof definitive that they were never essential and their assumptions of being virtually mmo nobility were empty pretenses all along.

SWTOR might be declining as we go, but little to none of that is because of the lack of raiding. Just like nearly none of what made it succeed at all was because of raiding.

It turns out that we can, in fact, have civilization without aristocracy and mmos without exclusively tuned content aimed at a fraction of the actual players.

Don't expect the whining to stop soon though, or for them to stop pointing at everything wrong with everything and take whatever creative leaps are required to connect the decline of mmos to the decline of interest in catering to their preferred form of Skinner box.

Because some people haven't figured out that raids are actually really bloody boring too and still buy the lie that raid or die gear treadmills are what mmo gaming is all about.

So......you think group content is unimportant to MMOs? Because that's what an Op is to me...group content I can do with a buncha people...the gear and crap we get is inconsequential to the fun I have playing with a large variety of other players.

I play MMO's to do stuff with my friends. If I wanted to play purely solo story, I'd go play mass effect, and talk about the story online. If I wanted purely PvP, I'd play Halo or hell EA Battlefront.

Ops have gone the way of GSF. It will never get new content, rarely get fixed, and will have a tiny niche community of people doing the same maps over and over again until they finally get bored and give up (which most have already done). At least us in GSF have never given up. New players will never be found because the game creates story mode heroes who have no idea what to to and there's no-one there to teach them what to do. So they'll hit endgame content like a brick wall and leave.

~ Eudoxia

There's also the fact that kotfe is terrible, and doesn't justify not having actual MMO content in anyway.

Others can call it opinion, but I know MANY people who agree with you. Online, I know very few who don't.

So......you think group content is unimportant to MMOs? Because that's what an Op is to me...group content I can do with a buncha people...the gear and crap we get is inconsequential to the fun I have playing with a large variety of other players.

There's no group content except raids, and it only counts as group content if it's a raid?

I'm quite certain I was addressing raiding.

Not group content as a massive blanket whole.

Stuff to do with friends is group content, and it is important to have that in an mmo. Must it be raiding?

No.

Is raiding an important form of group content?

Far too few think so for it to be a big thing in the industry anymore. It's a niche interest that drives nothing on its own, and certainly isn't the very foundation of mmo gaming as some would dearly like us to believe.

But group content is important.

I'm especially fond of small group content.

There's no group content except raids, and it only counts as group content if it's a raid?

 

I'm quite certain I was addressing raiding.

 

Not group content as a massive blanket whole.

 

Stuff to do with friends is group content, and it is important to have that in an mmo. Must it be raiding?

 

No.

 

Is raiding an important form of group content?

 

Far too few think so for it to be a big thing in the industry anymore. It's a niche interest that drives nothing on its own, and certainly isn't the very foundation of mmo gaming as some would dearly like us to believe.

 

But group content is important.

 

I'm especially fond of small group content.

I was addressing raiding too, since that is what this game offers for large group content.

What other large group content does this game have?

I'm not theorizing on what they could offer me that would be group content, I'm simply saying that Ops are important to this game because they are the repeatable group content that this game has to offer. I love PvP too because it's 100% group content...but PvP is far more of a niche than Ops are.

Obvious troll is obvious but...

If you just play this game for raids then you're playing the wrong MMO

But it used to be an excellent MMO for raiding. And it seems to have dwindled to nothing for no good, solid reason - such as Bioware stating that if they continue making ops they would lose such money that the servers would have to be shut down (not all the drivel, non-factual nonsense that forums posters have stated why ops have gone away).

Not. One. Good. Reason. EVER.

And, well, obnoxious posts like yours help to drive some of the anger too...

Despite their every claim and prediction, the game continues to thrive.

How is the game thriving again? Subs keep increasing? Number of fleet instances during prime time is up to 5 or 6 daily now, with even more on the weekend? Servers always full? People have to wait for log in queues? What exactly, since we all know you have no facts to prove this, is your indication that the game is "thriving"?

Finally, and I never get tired of saying this, there has not presented, ever, a single reason why Bioware cannot work on more than on aspect of the game simultaneously. There should be work done on class balance, story, strongholds, GSF, pvp, raids, flashpoints all going on at the same time...

There is never a good reason in any MMO to just work on one and only one area of game.

And everyone knows it, and this also drives the anger. Not just for raiders, but for any gamer that feels their corner of the MMO is being neglected...

I play MMO's to do stuff with my friends. If I wanted to play purely solo story, I'd go play mass effect, and talk about the story online. If I wanted purely PvP, I'd play Halo or hell EA Battlefront.

 

Ops have gone the way of GSF. It will never get new content, rarely get fixed, and will have a tiny niche community of people doing the same maps over and over again until they finally get bored and give up (which most have already done). At least us in GSF have never given up. New players will never be found because the game creates story mode heroes who have no idea what to to and there's no-one there to teach them what to do. So they'll hit endgame content like a brick wall and leave.

 

~ Eudoxia

There was a giant experiment in the industry a few years ago...... Wildstar... where they actually centered their design around old school raid centric MMO play. Guess what... it has proven to be non-viable commercially.

Which is not to say there will be no raid content in MMOs moving forward, but not all group content must be raids by any stretch. In fact, there is a lot of data that suggests many former raiders have largely abandoned that aspect of MMOs in favor of other content. Not all of course, and certainly some players love raids. My point is.... the broader player base is kind of burned out on the MMO raid format for game play.

There is plenty of group play in this game without including the raids. But I acknowledge that people who are into MMOs for the raids are not getting fed well in this MMO, or frankly any MMO in recent years. But there is, and continues to be a lot of great group content in MMOs anyway.

AND.. just to close.... the studio has stated they plan more new raids after they are done releasing the KoTFE chapters. They have yet to release any details. I get that patience is in short supply for some MMO players.

Keep in mind, they also said they'd be working on new Ops in January when they were doing the leadup to the KOFTE release. Being lied to tends to upset people a great deal.

Correction, they said they were starting to talk about Group content and Co-Op play. They did not say they were planning or starting to work on new Ops. There is a difference, group content and co-op play can be anything and doesn't have to be an Op. If they had said they were starting to work on new Ops people wouldn't be asking the type of questions they are asking.

Because some people haven't figured out that raids are actually really bloody boring too and still buy the lie that raid or die gear treadmills are what mmo gaming is all about.

 

Hamsters addicted to the process of pulling levers in specific sequences to get food pellets is what some of them are.

That is your opinion and quite frankly, although you put plenty of window dressing on your long winded insult to the endgame community, it is a pretty nasty insult none the less. You are basically calling people morons for enjoying Raids and large scale group content. If you don't want people calling you a simpleton, not intelligent or tactically minded enough to enjoy the subtle and challenging nuances of a difficult group boss fight then you shouldn't toss out the insults that you tried to disguise in your wall of text.

Put this way I would not have sub if it were not for one of my guild members who is very kind and generous , As I would not sub for this, If i want what this is I would go play my console, which were I play my single player story games.

As it is I only pvp cause Raiding has start to annoy me, same ops over and over with people that barely understand simple mechanics.

Keep in mind, they also said they'd be working on new Ops in January when they were doing the leadup to the KOFTE release. Being lied to tends to upset people a great deal.

this. they have said that they would start working on new ops once KOTFE initial chapters were released. and then they went back on that statement and said no new ops in forseeable future instead.

they have also said that they will never again create have a year or longer between new ops releases, I believe that was after dread fortress/palace? and yet..here were are going even longer.

why do we want new ops? becasue there is only so long you can go through old content, before you are done with it and would like something new to sink your teeth into. its very nice and all that they are trying to attract new people, but in the process they are pushing away their core. people who supported them through thick and thin up to this point. are you sure they are atracting enough new people who will continue to stick around, to replace the ones that left?

hell, even if we don't get ops, new flashpoints would be nice. and before someone says Star fortresses - its singular. its the same exact thing with 6 different titles and very slightly adjusted mechanics. its also meant to be done solo for the most part, you CAN bring people with you, but its not imperative. it even has solo only achievements.

Personally I no longer PvP or raid or even do group FP these days in SWTOR (use to do so regularly with ex-guild until I burn out and quit), as now I prefer a much more casual and commitment free quality playtime due to my work schedule. So I actually like the new direction of the game and KotFE (though some chapter are bad\boring but overall I do enjoy the game now compare to in the past)

However I actually don't mind seeing more new Ops or new PvP gameplay added into the game for those who enjoy these, provided that story contents and companion recruitment are not being gated behind Ops or PvP like what they did in the past.

why do we want new ops? becasue there is only so long you can go through old content, before you are done with it and would like something new to sink your teeth into.

Well said, the game gets stale and boring once you have played through the content more times than you actually wanted to. If they don't keep fresh, replayable content coming people will move on.

The move SWTOR is making is great for the casual community and those who are simple minded enough to be happy playing through the same old stuff day after day till the end of time, but many of us want more.

And before anyone asks the obvious question, "why are you still here if you feel that way?" My sub runs out on Monday, I refuse to pay for a game that I only log into so that I can raid with a great group friends. I have Ops passes to last till August and all the unlocks I need. If there isn't, at the very least, the hope of a new Op on the horizon I'll sub to finish off KotFE then remove the game from my computer.

Thus far SWTOR has gone down a path that I no longer wish to follow, I have done everything I want to do in this game. I have played since launch and have been following since it was announced. I created my account within hours of the site going live and was more excited about SWTOR than any game I have ever played. I still love this game and have the highest hopes for its future, but I can't bring myself to pay for something that I struggle to continue to have fun with.

Some people don't understand, good for you that means that you aren't burnt out. It means that you have plenty of spark and energy left for this game. You have to stop criticizing those who are getting burnt out though. If you truly do hope that SWTOR has a bright future you are going to need the raiders, the PvPers and the casuals too. It takes all kinds to keep an MMO viable and right now Bioware is successfully pushing away a significant part of the community. Most of the really great PvPers left a LONG time ago with no intention to return, now huge chunks of the raiding community are moving on as well, also with no desire to come back, ever. An MMO ceases to be an MMO when the masses are no longer engaging in structured group content. It is human nature to seek structure and few people desire to create structure where none exists, they will simply seek out structure that fits their needs. SWTOR is no longer producing structured group content, therefore people are seeking that content elsewhere.