Except you are missing they key reason why 1.2 was implemented. Prior to 1.2 there was no baseline for entering pvp. It was your low pve crap gear vs high end pvp gear. That didn't fly so they created recruit pvp gear which has significant expertise rating to it and it's enough where player skill or class can determine the outcome of the fight.

Well, if they're going to do several level 50 brackets, one for each gear tier, they better wait until X-server queues before going ANY further with Expertise...

And one bracket for each gear tier is the only way it will work, and only if there's enough PvP population for it.

I hear a lot of "what-ifs" for this to work...

I didn't know Recruit gear was in Pre-Patch 1.2.... my example started by stating Pre Patch 1.2... sooo... yeah, I don't know what to tell ya.

If your example was true then there would be no stopping a WH geared player... ever.. even in 1.2. 1% expertise is not that huge of a difference. It wasn't prior to 1.2 either. The problem was that people were going into pvp without pvp gear and getting blown up by people rocking full BM gear.

Here enlighten yourself.

http://dulfy.net/2012/02/20/useful-warzonepvp-info-statistics-3/

So the difference in pre-1.2 was 20% if you are looking at battlemaster vs fresh 50 with no expertise. Now you have recruit that is easy to buy at 50. You don't have a reason to be blown up anymore in pvp.

So it's a fear that WoW created? Interesting.

 

The Pre 1.2 Rakata/BM mix was fail. It was tested extensively and lost against fully geared BM. It worked great against BM/Champ mix, but it better have because it was Top Tier+Top Tier versus 2nd Tier+Top Tier. But because it worked great against Champ/BM mix, players thought it was better. 12.35% was the average full BM Expertise number, if that was pitted against anything other than Equal %, it was one sided really bad.

I've never played WoW, so I can't comment on whether that started it, but my example was from this game. I appreciate your response, but clearly the devs saw different numbers since they tuned expertise up to make it the most important stat for PVP over everything else. There is a lot going on in the game that we cannot see. People complained about their classes getting nerfed based on new patch notes (me included), but when 1.2 went live, i still saw people being extremely competitive and putting up big numbers. In fact, there was a great post on the dev tracker in regards to damage output on mercs and test dummies. If the devs thought that expertise wasn't doing enough to make PVP gear stronger in PVP then they wouldn't have changed anything.

If your example was true then there would be no stopping a WH geared player... ever.. even in 1.2. 1% expertise is not that huge of a difference. It wasn't prior to 1.2 either. The problem was that people were going into pvp without pvp gear and getting blown up by people rocking full BM gear.

 

Here enlighten yourself.

http://dulfy.net/2012/02/20/useful-warzonepvp-info-statistics-3/

So the difference in pre-1.2 was 20% if you are looking at battlemaster vs fresh 50 with no expertise. Now you have recruit that is easy to buy at 50. You don't have a reason to be blown up anymore in pvp.

You're joking right?

I've never played WoW, so I can't comment on whether that started it, but my example was from this game. I appreciate your response, but clearly the devs saw different numbers since they tuned expertise up to make it the most important stat for PVP over everything else. There is a lot going on in the game that we cannot see. People complained about their classes getting nerfed based on new patch notes (me included), but when 1.2 went live, i still saw people being extremely competitive and putting up big numbers. In fact, there was a great post on the dev tracker in regards to damage output on mercs and test dummies. If the devs thought that expertise wasn't doing enough to make PVP gear stronger in PVP then they wouldn't have changed anything.

I can't agree with that. One of the biggest screw ups a MMO can make is to push out a ton of updates via one patch, instead of trickle them down slowly in order to control the chaos. Bioware made this gigantic mistake with Patch 1.2, they have played their hand, shown their cards, they are new to MMOs and it shows. They know they screwed up, or no one would have been given a free month of game time while they rush to try and fix things.

Lots going on behind the scenes... sure, that's pretty accurate. Bioware having a good handle on it... not so accurate. The free month of play time is as much of an indicator on that as there could be.

I can't agree with that. One of the biggest screw ups a MMO can make is to push out a ton of updates via one patch, instead of trickle them down slowly in order to control the chaos. Bioware made this gigantic mistake with Patch 1.2, they have played their hand, shown their cards, they are new to MMOs and it shows. They know they screwed up, or no one would have been given a free month of game time while they rush to try and fix things.

 

Lots going on behind the scenes... sure, that's pretty accurate. Bioware having a good handle on it... not so accurate. The free month of play time is as much of an indicator on that as there could be.

Didn't* have a good handle on it, DO* now, I think is the more accurate scenario. Unexpectedly having the highest ratio of players actually PvPing than any other MMO in the past tends to do that. No one could have predicted that.

Didn't* have a good handle on it, DO* now, I think is the more accurate scenario. Unexpectedly having the highest ratio of players actually PvPing than any other MMO in the past tends to do that. No one could have predicted that.

What do you think Patch 1.3 will have?

What do you think Patch 1.3 will have?

When it's being purposefully kept "lean" to get out some needed things? Not much, actually. Ranked Warzones, but that will probably come before 1.3.

The total revamp of open-world, though, will and should take bit longer. It's a good sign that it is, not a bad one.

expertise is needed unless the gear from pvp is equal to the gear from pve in all matters....

that also includes speed at which you can acquire and anything that drops from raid will also be available from pvp.

long story short I will have ****** raid gear just from doing pvp and the pve'ers will cry.

They wont change this. And here is why :

- Two sets of gear for two purposes = two times the grind, either in pve raids or pvp warzones.

- More grind = more people of the achiever and gatherer type will be happy because that is what they want to do in an mmo among other things of course.

- Most people who play mmos belong into one of the above categories of gamers, among some additional characteristics

- majority of your players kept busy with the carrot on a stick = higher player retention

- higher player retention = more $$$

You can bring up dozens of logical arguments as to why it would be better to have sets that are equally well suited for both pvp and pve and I am sure most ppl would actually agree with it. But the developers do not always want the same or do what the players would like them to do. Developers are not your caretakers or your friends, they want to make money with the game and having an additional grind in the game is almost like an assurance to keep most ppl interested for just a while longer so they might stick it out a month longer to achieve their goals in the game.

I think Expertise is redundant, and kind of stupid

On one hand, it gives players something to strive for after they hit 50... On the other hand, if everyone has the same Damage and reduction against one another from it, what's the point?

They wont change this. And here is why :

 

- Two sets of gear for two purposes = two times the grind, either in pve raids or pvp warzones.

 

- More grind = more people of the achiever and gatherer type will be happy because that is what they want to do in an mmo among other things of course.

 

- Most people who play mmos belong into one of the above categories of gamers, among some additional characteristics

 

- majority of your players kept busy with the carrot on a stick = higher player retention

 

- higher player retention = more $$$

 

 

You can bring up dozens of logical arguments as to why it would be better to have sets that are equally well suited for both pvp and pve and I am sure most ppl would actually agree with it. But the developers do not always want the same or do what the players would like them to do. Developers are not your caretakers or your friends, they want to make money with the game and having an additional grind in the game is almost like an assurance to keep most ppl interested for just a while longer so they might stick it out a month longer to achieve their goals in the game.

If you think long and hard about the fundamentals of an RPG and then add the element of Expertise into it, you realize Expertise is a big fat joke. It needs to go...big time.

Sadly, this gentleman is right. Why else would such a system be in place where, after spending countless hours of acquiring things and leveling up your character, as well as your crafting capabilities, it all becomes for nothing once you reach the highest level? Why, other than to entice us into staying subbed longer? This is a deep, core game mechanic that wreaks of EA greed.

Edit: It's not enough to say Expertise is not needed. Expertise flat out ruins PvP in this game.

Ok I got bored of reading after page 5 so I've skipped about 50 pages. If this has been said already I appologise.

There are 2 main player 'paths': PvE and PvP. As such there are a number of ways gear can be approached:

• If only one of those were to provide gear - I would be forced to do it to remain competitive in the other.
  
• Neither provide gear - In SWTOR this would effective preclude customization of stats. While this may work in systems like RO where stats are assigned by the player, SWTOR's only method of customization is in gear (and yes customization IS necessary, skill is about more than reaction times)
  
• Both provide same or equivalent gear - I could do either and remain competitive for both. The deciding factor would be skill. That said, how do you determine what is an equivalent 'workload' to earn said gear. If one is easier I am encouraged to do that to remain competitive.
  
• Both provide different gear - This is the situation we have here. PvPing gives you gear to make you better at PvP. PvE gives you gear to make you better at PvE. This is where Expertise comes in, allows customization without affecting PvE as much.
  

TL;DR - Expertise is needed in a system where stat customization is built on gear.

I think Expertise is redundant, and kind of stupid

 

On one hand, it gives players something to strive for after they hit 50... On the other hand, if everyone has the same Damage and reduction against one another from it, what's the point?

The POINT my friend is they can adjust it for balance issues. They want longer TTK (I wonder how many people who use this term knows what it means?) they adjust the numbers. Healing needs a buff adjust the numbers. Marauders dealing too much dmg adjust the numbers for marauders alone. And here's the kicker. IT DOES NOT AFFECT PvE. You got any idea the S.Storm that would happen if they nerfed healers across the board in 1.2 instead of just for PvP? Come on people take your head out of the deep deep dark dark deep dark hole.

The POINT my friend is they can adjust it for balance issues. They want longer TTK (I wonder how many people who use this term knows what it means?) they adjust the numbers. Healing needs a buff adjust the numbers. Marauders dealing too much dmg adjust the numbers for marauders alone. And here's the kicker. IT DOES NOT AFFECT PvE. You got any idea the S.Storm that would happen if they nerfed healers across the board in 1.2 instead of just for PvP? Come on people take your head out of the deep deep dark dark deep dark hole.

The thing is, it has actually resulted in a shorter TTK for fresh 50s. Eventually, 50th level PvP will need to be bracketed, thus splitting the PvP community even more.

The thing is, it has actually resulted in a shorter TTK for fresh 50s. Eventually, 50th level PvP will need to be bracketed, thus splitting the PvP community even more.

If you step into 50 lvl PVP with no gear then yes, you will get facerolled and die 30 times (same thing happens in pve). This only applies in the pre 1.2 era where you couldn't get gear with expertise until after hitting 50. These days you can get BM gear before hitting 50 and at the very least buy recruit gear. I can say that I've had no problems rolling into WZs on my alts in full recruit gear. I agree that you are still at a disadvantage, but not to the point of being completely uncompetitive. Also, I don't feel the PVP community is split at all. People who are really into PVP are in the 50 bracket. The 10-49 bracket is simply to gain some experience, maybe some comms for gear and take a break from leveling. It certainly isn't meant to separate the PVP community, its just there to make a more enjoyable leveling experience. The only split that will happen is when ranked WZs come out and we have premades in ranked queues and pugs in non ranked queues. Since cross-server will be in as well, you will actually have an easier time finding a game than you do now.

it is not needed

Pve based gear would work good for pvp content as well. I hate dividing up my time from pve and pvp sets, I think is really stupid. wow pvp and get armor do the same map 1000's times and you get this piece or chance of that; and once you get it, they make it easier to get for everyone else :wea_03:SLAP to the FACE.... Expertise and pve sets off set by there stats. I find it easy to just pvp and get set and skip to pve content fun.

If you step into 50 lvl PVP with no gear then yes, you will get facerolled and die 30 times (same thing happens in pve). This only applies in the pre 1.2 era where you couldn't get gear with expertise until after hitting 50. These days you can get BM gear before hitting 50 and at the very least buy recruit gear. I can say that I've had no problems rolling into WZs on my alts in full recruit gear. I agree that you are still at a disadvantage, but not to the point of being completely uncompetitive. Also, I don't feel the PVP community is split at all. People who are really into PVP are in the 50 bracket. The 10-49 bracket is simply to gain some experience, maybe some comms for gear and take a break from leveling. It certainly isn't meant to separate the PVP community, its just there to make a more enjoyable leveling experience. The only split that will happen is when ranked WZs come out and we have premades in ranked queues and pugs in non ranked queues. Since cross-server will be in as well, you will actually have an easier time finding a game than you do now.

Not yet. That's why I used the word "eventually". There will come a time where level 50 PvP will need to be bracketed, or Recruit-geared 50s won't stand a chance. Inflation happens. It doesn't have to do with the ability to find people or not. Segregation is bad, regardless.

I'd rather see statless PvP where everyone is in the same pool than that crap again.

Does it matter what we think? When has Bioware listened to ANYTHING from the PvP forum?

It's not needed.

Why does this keep popping up? Who in this thread has said this? Or eluded to this?

 

This has popped up so many times, I wonder what the toll would be if I removed all the "neededs" that have stated this. At least minus 20 votes.

 

 

People, what on earth would make you think that removing Expertise would force you to raid to be able to PvP? Can someone/anyone explain that rational behind that insanity of thinking?

Easy even now you would have a hard time with crafted gear against best gear you can get in raids and if you then se 1year from now when they added new lvl of pve gear you will have a even harder time.