As for the tank DPS stuff, no one has showed anymore tank parses for Shadow/Sins or Vanguard/PT in full tank gear/items so there is nothing to say until people provide some evidence. Based on what I've seen with my Vanguard who is still missing 1 implant and has a 72 mainhand, I could see a Vanguard possibly doing more than 1500 on Nefra with full tank gear. Thus, it's possible that Jugg tank DPS is still low due to the developers counting potential damage from Saber Reflect.

here is a powertech log for nefra (1446 dps) http://www.torparse.com/a/617508 the gear is full dreadforged bis except relics and 2 implants (which are veracity) no dps gear or stim/adrenal was used. that was an 8 man I don't know if I did better damage because the fight was so short or maybe I concentrated on dps more because the boss barely hurts on 8man, but last week I did a 16 man (1281 dps) with no significant gear changehttp://www.torparse.com/a/610254

can't remember the last time I did an 8man on my assassin, but here's a 16man (1307 dps) full dreadforged bis no dps relics/adrenals usedhttp://www.torparse.com/a/603227 though my rotational concern was only keeping dark protection up making me prioritize shock and wither while if you are willing to cut it a little close with your stacks using maul/assassinate a lot more (I think even thrash does more damage than wither) you could probably do a lot more damage. I also have an annihilation marauder dps and a jugg cotank... so I would be able to get away with not using discharge at all and only using wither to get the 3rd HD stack when I needed it and not see any increase in damage taken.

here is a powertech log for nefra (1446 dps) http://www.torparse.com/a/617508 the gear is full dreadforged bis except relics and 2 implants (which are veracity) no dps gear or stim/adrenal was used. that was an 8 man I don't know if I did better damage because the fight was so short or maybe I concentrated on dps more because the boss barely hurts on 8man, but last week I did a 16 man (1281 dps) with no significant gear changehttp://www.torparse.com/a/610254

 

can't remember the last time I did an 8man on my assassin, but here's a 16man (1307 dps) full dreadforged bis no dps relics/adrenals usedhttp://www.torparse.com/a/603227 though my rotational concern was only keeping dark protection up making me prioritize shock and wither while if you are willing to cut it a little close with your stacks using maul/assassinate a lot more (I think even thrash does more damage than wither) you could probably do a lot more damage. I also have an annihilation marauder dps and a jugg cotank... so I would be able to get away with not using discharge at all and only using wither to get the 3rd HD stack when I needed it and not see any increase in damage taken.

All right, thanks for the parses. There should be no difference in DPS on Nefra from 8 and 16 apart from the fact that more people in 16 man means you are less likely to be targeted by a droid, which gives you a better chance of doing your maximum DPS.

In general, parses can vary a lot; this is especially true on a fight that is as short as Nefra and lucky crits and misses can vary your DPS from about 100-150 DPS and sometimes more in very unusual circumstances. Looking at your Powertech parses, the main difference I see is that you had significantly more misses in the 16 man and they happened on your higher DPS skills. Other than that, you had the droid spawn in your 2nd parse and you didn't crop the time so you had 8 seconds where you did no damage but still lost DPS. If you use the "By Time" feature on Torparse and set the starting time of your parse to the beginning of the fight and trim the end to when your or the boss's last attack occurred, your parse becomes 1316. Once you get the rest of your gear (i.e. the implants), you could probably hit 1500 with some very good luck, but regardless, they are great parses.

My highest for Jugg tank has gone up from mid-1300s with Enraged Defense to 1437 without it. That's of course with full tank gear/items, but I'm also BiS on everything except one implant (which is an Oriconian one still with full defensive stats) so I do have better gear.

The Vanguard I play at times has his mainhand now so when I get the opportunity, I'll see how much I can do on him.

I basically never get a chance to do 8 man Nefra on my tank anymore, but we did it just the other week because we didn't feel like actually working for an implant. Unfortunately, it's in a long log, so I can't crop out the droid at the end: http://www.torparse.com/a/617825/35/0/Damage+Dealt If It were cropped, it would be about a 1420. I'm missing one implant, I made several mistakes (delayed one TkT, and missed out on *two* Spinning Strikes), and I had to maintain the accuracy debuff. Very above average crit on Spinning Strike (which was nice), but the rest was pretty stock. Vaid's Jugg parse has a whopping 35% crit on Retaliate, which given the surge talent is pretty outstandingly lucky. I didn't use the triple relic trick (which would have improved my opener a TON) because I was feeling lazy.

Replacing every Force Breach with Double Strike gives me another 15 DPS straight up. The increased crit chance on Project, shortened TkT and higher proc rate on Shadow Strike which would result from such a change would likely contribute another 7-10 DPS as well.

So, even without fixing the mistakes (especially the two missing Spinning Strikes), just giving me a Guardian cotank would have resulted in about 1443 DPS, give or take.

Overall, I'm not sure there is sufficient evidence to claim that any of the tank classes have higher DPS than the other. It's certainly safe to say that the average player gets much lower DPS out of a Jugg than the other two tanks, but balance discussions always need to assume optimal play.

I basically never get a chance to do 8 man Nefra on my tank anymore, but we did it just the other week because we didn't feel like actually working for an implant. Unfortunately, it's in a long log, so I can't crop out the droid at the end: http://www.torparse.com/a/617825/35/0/Damage+Dealt If It were cropped, it would be about a 1420. I'm missing one implant, I made several mistakes (delayed one TkT, and missed out on *two* Spinning Strikes), and I had to maintain the accuracy debuff. Very above average crit on Spinning Strike (which was nice), but the rest was pretty stock. Vaid's Jugg parse has a whopping 35% crit on Retaliate, which given the surge talent is pretty outstandingly lucky. I didn't use the triple relic trick (which would have improved my opener a TON) because I was feeling lazy.

 

Replacing every Force Breach with Double Strike gives me another 15 DPS straight up. The increased crit chance on Project, shortened TkT and higher proc rate on Shadow Strike which would result from such a change would likely contribute another 7-10 DPS as well.

 

So, even without fixing the mistakes (especially the two missing Spinning Strikes), just giving me a Guardian cotank would have resulted in about 1443 DPS, give or take.

 

Overall, I'm not sure there is sufficient evidence to claim that any of the tank classes have higher DPS than the other. It's certainly safe to say that the average player gets much lower DPS out of a Jugg than the other two tanks, but balance discussions always need to assume optimal play.

It looks like 1400-1500 for a decently lucky parse with a near-perfect rotation is going to be the average amongst the tank classes then. I don't use the Boundless ages relic before any fight starts (the triple relic trick you referenced) even though it doesn't hurt my survivability just because I thought it might skew the results.

Also, I should mention that I don't get a Surge bonus on any skills as a tank Jugg nor is my crit rate for Retaliation significantly above average. You are probably confusing the two as Retaliation has a 15% boost in Crit chance thanks to the talent "Lash Out" that can be found in the 2nd tier of the Immortal tree (2nd from left). My Crit chance is 18.63% Melee with 51% Crit Multiplier. With the 15% boost to Crit chance on Retaliation, that adds up to 33.63% Melee so my 35% Crit chance on Retaliation is very close to normal.

I found this mechanic disturbing from the beginning on. I think I had only once found a similar mechanic in the Fantasy Genre.

Use unnatural preservation to recover your health after mana regen. Also stand in your own AOE circle, you'll be fine. Force management is hardly an issue for sorcs imo. I have healed NIM progression since EV as all three healing classes. Mercs have most annoying management imo. Sorcs have weakest heals for the bosses that actually take skill, however is the easiest mindless healing class (a bad sorc can still do decent). OP healing is hands down the highest healing output without question. I love my sorc and I am good with it, probably know more about sorc healing then any of the other classes. But I can't even compete with the output I can do on my operative with half the effort as I do on my sorc. As far as class buffs or debuffs I would say sorc healing overall needs a buff. Operative healing can't really be changed that much without traumatizing 99% of the raids out there that depend on an operative to progress.

Operatives should stay as is for healing at least

Sorcs need buffs, perhaps increasing damage bubble can absorb or reduce debuff duration

Mercs should be able to use some skill that allows them to move and heal. Don't care about anything else. Being able to move and heal is a must in the latest raids.

Anybody interested in talking heals feel free to PM me. Been out of game last 45 days and am coming back. As far as I can tell nothing changed except op heals slight change in 2.7

Also, I should mention that I don't get a Surge bonus on any skills as a tank Jugg nor is my crit rate for Retaliation significantly above average. You are probably confusing the two as Retaliation has a 15% boost in Crit chance thanks to the talent "Lash Out" that can be found in the 2nd tier of the Immortal tree (2nd from left). My Crit chance is 18.63% Melee with 51% Crit Multiplier. With the 15% boost to Crit chance on Retaliation, that adds up to 33.63% Melee so my 35% Crit chance on Retaliation is very close to normal.

Ah, derp! My mistake. Your parse is then very, very average. In fact, more average than mine, since I got some really good luck on Spinning Strike crits.

Sniper/Gunslinger

PVE (Engineering) - every month.. awaiting the promised rework / fixes to be added to the PTS

PVE (General) - compared to the other pure DPS class, has no reliable (burst) AoE specialization after the 2.6 Orbital/Flyby nerf

PVE (other 2 specs) - BW seems to be ok with where the other specs are right now... but they did mention probably buffing the Dirty Fighting/Lethality spec

Also perhaps noteworthy is that the 4 piece jugg tank bonus is so abhorrently bad that I would always personally suggest using either the two piece mara or jugg dps set with the 2 piece jugg tank.

You lose out on about 6-800 damage absorbed every minute (wow 13 in is awesome!), but gain either significantly increased rage generation (from jugg dps bonus) or a very nice boost to your strongest ability (mara dps bonus).

You lose out on about 6-800 damage absorbed every minute (wow 13 in is awesome!), but gain either significantly increased rage generation (from jugg dps bonus) or a very nice boost to your strongest ability (mara dps bonus).

You lose out on 267 damage absorbed every 12 seconds, or 22.25 HPS (1335 damage per minute). I assume you also personally suggest that tanks only equip one defensive relic, saving the additional relic slot for an offensive one. Hilariously, depending on which relic you're swapping out, this would result in trading away less damage taken in exchange for more damage dealt than the set bonus suggestion you're making.

tl;dr: You're substantially under-valuing the 4pc set bonus while simultaneously over-valuing the DPS 2pc set bonuses as they apply to the Jugg tank spec. The 4pc set bonus alone is worth more than the Shield Amplification relic (and almost as much as the Fortunate Redoubt).

in my view, there is nothing wrong with any class, i would much prefer classes to be unbalanced as it would require greater skill to play particular classes, and it would take more to learn how to successfully play a class. Balance is actually an illusion. Smash is not OP also, and neither was OS/flyby, people just need to learn how to deal with it instead of more complaining about OP classes. It gets tiring to hear.

on target dummy parses, sorcs are pulling less DPS than snipers, snipers are pulling less than mercs, assassins are pulling considerably less than operatives and marauders...etc. so even the top skill level of players are basically getting less out of their class just because they decided to play that class. If the top level players were all pulling 4k consistently, with maybe some classes pulling 4k on a dummy and some classes pulled 3900 while a couple pulled 4.1k, the skill needed to pull those numbers on each class would be arbitrary. you can always do better in your rotation/timing/crits. you cannot improve how much damage your skills do, only the devs can.

You lose out on 267 damage absorbed every 12 seconds, or 22.25 HPS (1335 damage per minute). I assume you also personally suggest that tanks only equip one defensive relic, saving the additional relic slot for an offensive one. Hilariously, depending on which relic you're swapping out, this would result in trading away less damage taken in exchange for more damage dealt than the set bonus suggestion you're making.

 

tl;dr: You're substantially under-valuing the 4pc set bonus while simultaneously over-valuing the DPS 2pc set bonuses as they apply to the Jugg tank spec. The 4pc set bonus alone is worth more than the Shield Amplification relic (and almost as much as the Fortunate Redoubt).

Apparently I miscalculated the amount of damage absorbed by Scream (gave it as a 200 bonus abs), but I still would hold that in real fights jugg tanks (myself included) tend to use scream closer to 17-14 seconds on average which puts the damage absorbed more on the 900-1100 damage per minute or 15-18 damage per second abs.

You also misconstrued the purpose of using the jugg dps bonus. It's not only a dps increase (albeit a small one but hard to calculate), but it is a very helpful quality of life bonus as it gives an extra rage generation ability that allows the removal of a significant portion of your auto attacks, and higher/longer/more frequent dps burst windows.

The purpose of the mara dps bonus is much more straightforward of course, boost ravage, do more dps. The secondary benefit ofc is that the "little" multiplicative change ravage gets makes the jugg tank tps opener much stronger. (not that any tank really needs it for aggro purposes but its still a nice thing to have)

Your mindset also suggests that no matter how minuscule a difference, full mit builds lead to a better raid experience than other ones, which in my personal experience (and that of many guilds in game) doesn't pan out.

Is either way wrong? Not if it gets the job done. Which is better? The one your healers prefer to run with.

TL:DR Quality of life set bonus makes everyone happy.

Edit: Also I use Warding and Retribution relics for note.