I don't see any way realistically speaking that level 55 will not trivialize all current content. And making clones of current content that are just level 55 content isn't new content.

The current leveling system already trivializes too much content along the way, there is no way to do all the "x"-level content without leveling to 50 before waaaaay before you complete the given planets. As it is, I skip all heroics, all bonus series, all space missions, and still get to 50 often without even hitting Corellia.

And I guarantee you there will be significant numbers of people at level 55 a week after it is released. And if you get 5 days advance play, maybe even before it's publicly released.

I'm sorry, but I don't see that they are going to have a grip on what can of worms they're opening by increasing the level cap with so small an expansion. It would be like hitting level 50 and only having Ilum to play on.

Heavens knows what they're gonna do with level 50 PvP. Will it become level 1-54? And level 55??? Or what? Imagine all the war hero geared 55s getting paired with level 49s who are being bumped to level 54s.

The whole concept of raising the level cap with such a small expansion is a recipe for disaster.

Not sure a level cap increase is a great idea tbh. All that's going to happen is balance gets screwed up and old content becomes obsolete.

Why are MMO developers incapable of adding more content without adding to the level grind? Which most people at end-game don't actually want...

Why are MMO developers incapable of adding more content without adding to the level grind? Which most people at end-game don't actually want...

For the people who get a sense of accomplishment out of leveling and do not play end game (usually grind alts or leave until cap is raised). I would also say that "end game players" are actually a small portion compared to the over all player base. Raise the level cap is part of the theme park model.

Wish I could believe you but your teams reputation for saying one thing and delivering another is pretty bad.

Their "item power" comment worries me because this is the same team that thinks that healers and dps need more endurance than main stat. I had to get 8 pieces of Dread Guard before I had a decent 5/5 Force-Mystic setup because they seem to have itemization issues. Let me guess, the new gear will have accuracy for healers and shield for dps?

Which means there is little point in subscribing unless you have the 'expansion', BW are certainly trying to alienate there subscriber base at every turn.

There's no point in subscribing to any MMO without buying all the expansions if end-game activities are your preference.

Oh, I agree with you. If they make it so that you MUST have the current end game gear to START the next expansion with out puting a vendor in the game that lets you buy gear or mods to come into parady with the gear level of the new expansion, they are going to loose alot of players. Think of the time spent and "experience" you didn't get (because you were capped) grinding up your current end game gear. If that same amount of time must be spent to even START the expansion, you will be accumulating exp (because your experience bar will be unlocked) while doing so. Depending on the rate of experience gain you could be about 2.5 levels into the next level range before you even start the next expansion due to the grind to get the potential gear score needed for the next expansion.

 

There needs to be a clear way ( like in WoW) to jump an end game grind to start a new expansion. This is important to people that have been away for a while from a particular game AND for playing alts. Imagine if you HAD to do ALL the end game grinds at the end of each WoW expansion just to be at the requisite gear score to get to play through the next expansion. That would be daunting. Blizzard realized this and made a way to effectively get you into the next expansion (via quest rewards and "catch up" gear vendors) so that by the time you were expansion level start +2 levels you would be about equal to the last expansions end game gear level. This served two purposes. One to give returning player, and new players the ability to level and get to the new content, and to make sure the the last expansions gear wasn't made obsolete until about 2 levels into the next expansion so all the hard work doing the last expansions end game wasn't whiped out immediately with a new expansion.

 

SWTOR simply MUST adopt this same stratagy given that it is following the same theme park, gear chase model.

True, but I don't think a catch up vendor is necessary since everyone begins in Tionese-tier gear (it is given to you at Level 50) and I assume that is how the planet's questing will be tuned. And from the way Bioware has dealt with gear progression in the past, I suspect one day Tionese will be discontinued and Columi will be the beginner tier -- this is exactly what they've done in PvP and it's something they've said they plan to continue. The same is also less directly happening in PvE -- you can get Black Hole gear without ever running EV or KP and then you're set for Tier 2 Ops. Again, this pattern will probably continue.

I don't see any way realistically speaking that level 55 will not trivialize all current content. And making clones of current content that are just level 55 content isn't new content.

 

The current leveling system already trivializes too much content along the way, there is no way to do all the "x"-level content without leveling to 50 before waaaaay before you complete the given planets. As it is, I skip all heroics, all bonus series, all space missions, and still get to 50 often without even hitting Corellia.

 

And I guarantee you there will be significant numbers of people at level 55 a week after it is released. And if you get 5 days advance play, maybe even before it's publicly released.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't see that they are going to have a grip on what can of worms they're opening by increasing the level cap with so small an expansion. It would be like hitting level 50 and only having Ilum to play on.

 

Heavens knows what they're gonna do with level 50 PvP. Will it become level 1-54? And level 55??? Or what? Imagine all the war hero geared 55s getting paired with level 49s who are being bumped to level 54s.

 

The whole concept of raising the level cap with such a small expansion is a recipe for disaster.

How do you hit 50 prior to Corellia that way? Do you also do any flashpoints?

Even with rested xp and doing all heroics and bonus series plus the occasional wz I don't hit 50 on my alts until the 2nd map on Corellia.

How do you hit 50 prior to Corellia that way? Do you also do any flashpoints?

 

Even with rested xp and doing all heroics and bonus series plus the occasional wz I don't hit 50 on my alts until the 2nd map on Corellia.

Pretty much what I was thinking. I'm usually about level 46 by the start of Corellia and I don't do any group content, space missions or warzones until I reach Corellia, which I put off until I've hit level 50 via warzones.

Hi everyone! While we can't address every concern raised in this thread right now, we can reassure you that the gear you've obtained in our current endgame will continue to be relevant after the expansion is released, and it will provide a great bootstrap into the higher-level content offered by Rise of the Hutt Cartel. You won't be replacing your Dread Guard gear with gear you pick up as you level, and thanks to improvements in the way item power is calculated, we won't be handing out any entry-level gear at the new level cap. You'll hear more about RotHC as we approach its launch, and we'll continue to answer questions and provide more details!

....Here's to wishing for horizontal progression.

It's a pipe dream, I know, but BOY would it help things here. Vertical progression in this game fell flat it seems.

....Here's to wishing for horizontal progression.

 

It's a pipe dream, I know, but BOY would it help things here. Vertical progression in this game fell flat it seems.

I actually think this is where they are going for right or wrong. They want a little vertical progression but they also see the downfall of casual players not being able to play in the game without a grind, there was a recent podcast on it. I think they will add a little gear but keep Dread Guard as the Top with only small improvements below that. Look at how they handled the Elite War Hero gear very small change to War Hero.

With the expansion I think you will find all the gear in the new zone to be only a little better than Tionesse as they give that away now but not as good as the next level. What they will do is probably add a few more looks for the new zone. Yes the Black Hole area and Area X are harder zones I think they will stick with that and make it hard to go through by yourself but not impossible. Heroic in the area will be interesting but basically easy with a group.

How they add to the skill tree will be way more interesting as I think they will go for balancing of classes versus an overall upgrade of power which should prove either great or disastrous all depending on how they handle the sorcerer class.

Their "item power" comment worries me because this is the same team that thinks that healers and dps need more endurance than main stat. I had to get 8 pieces of Dread Guard before I had a decent 5/5 Force-Mystic setup because they seem to have itemization issues. Let me guess, the new gear will have accuracy for healers and shield for dps?

Yeah, this is what caught my attention too. I /want/ to believe it means something good like gear stats that scale with our level. But I suspect it means something bad, like adding diminishing returns to main stat or power. I hope they can release more details soon, because right now I see more risks of making the game worse than opportunities for it to be better.

Actually, this sounds like they're taking almost the EXACT same approach WoW did with The Burning Crusades.

Gear from the higher level non-raid vanilla instances was basically the entry gear for TBC.

If you had gear from the "simpler" raids (MC, ZG, first bosses of AQ20), you'd see two or three pieces replaced in every zone untill Blades' Edge.

If you had gear from the top end raids (Naxx, AQ40), you'd be wearing that until you got some replacements in Kara.

Now this has both a good side and a bad side, since there's ALWAYS someone who will complain.

In this case, some endgame raiders complained that they never had anything useful drop while they were leveling up.

But if there had been useful drops for them, then some other raiders (if not themselves, some people just love to whine) would've started complaining how the new leveling gear trivialized their "hard earned" raid gear (some noob raiders actually did..). So it's a catch-22 for the developer.

For the people who get a sense of accomplishment out of leveling and do not play end game (usually grind alts or leave until cap is raised). I would also say that "end game players" are actually a small portion compared to the over all player base. Raise the level cap is part of the theme park model.

cater an mmo to 1% of non end gamers / end game pvp? Thats a winning business model.

so your mad that you need to grind again? ok. You all are insane. Would you rather have a game like Diablo3 that you beat and that is that...or do you want a game that keeps you learning, always giving you something new to do? Ya, I am a noob to this game, But new levels, gear, zones whatever mean new things to learn and it never gets stale. If you dont want new stuff, feel free to leave...lighten up the server load a little.

I enjoy finding new gear...exploring a new zone...IN ANY GAME. It is proof that designers put pride in their work and dont sit on their rears.

the expansion is a good thing. It means this game is still growing. Means that even in free to play, they generate enough money to work on a new project and impliment any feature...and thats not cheap.

I will not pre order...kinda a waste, but i will buy it when it is released. I will keep subscribing...or maybe unlock with coins the features i want...not sure yet.

To the OP, bless you. Thank you. I agree emphatically with you.

This is one of the fundamental flawed assumptions devs make in MMO's - they're SO wrong.

Short version: See me saying the same thing in my own words in Section IX of my Definitive Issues thread (see Sig for URL):

Section IX - GEAR GRINDING ≠ ENJOYABLE END GAME

I'm still leveling alts. I tried endgame during the first quarter of launch. However, the fact that TOR developers offer zero guild seeking and charter support, its pure and utter chaos for an adult player to find a good fit with a decent guild community AND it takes a decent guild community to enjoy endgame as an adult.

On that issue, see Section VI of my Definitive Issues thread (see Sig for URL):

Section VI – PLAYER GUILD SUPPORT – OCCUPY SWTOR

So, in the end, I agree with you 100%, spot on right. There's fundamental flaws with this game's design across many dimensions, and this is one of them. See sig for the others.

so your mad that you need to grind again? ok. You all are insane. Would you rather have a game like Diablo3 that you beat and that is that...or do you want a game that keeps you learning, always giving you something new to do? Ya, I am a noob to this game, But new levels, gear, zones whatever mean new things to learn and it never gets stale. If you dont want new stuff, feel free to leave...lighten up the server load a little.

I enjoy finding new gear...exploring a new zone...IN ANY GAME. It is proof that designers put pride in their work and dont sit on their rears.

Practice critical thinking and listening skills. New content and gear grind are not the same thing, and nobody is arguing against new content. We are arguing against the gear grind caused by level cap increases.

This has nothing to do with Diablo 3 or stale. This has to do with unnecessary gear gating when we could be enjoying content.

My clan logged into Counterstrike for multiplayer combat fun for "years" with the same content and no gear grind. Years. Because... it was fun. Why... it was teamwork, it was skill. Those two things alone provide challenges for people enjoying activities. Those two things alone provide various skill levels for both roles and class skills, teamwork and communication skills, that allow teams to go in and stumble at entry level challenges, and others to progress to harder levels of challenge. No need to throw gear into the gate to block opportunity to enjoy challenges, teamwork, and skills.

Instead of saying, "we can't do that, we don't have a geared tank," that we hear all too often, we could instead hear, "we can do that, just have to hop on my tank. And oh yeah, John's new, let's show him the ropes and get some experience at it."

Due to that very gating, that totally unnecessary gating, only a small population of gamers enjoy the content, and the levels of content, that the developers spent so much time developing, for so few players to be able to enjoy. Ridiculously flawed.

So while players are trying to gear up alts (and enjoy a game based on alts and stories), to provide access to content past the gates that befall us so often, just as soon as we finally get near to providing that flexibility to have enough geared and skilled players, who can do the challenging teamwork... the level cap is increased and it was all a complete waste of time, a complete mousewheel, for no purpose, no enjoyment.

We were stuck on grinding gear and alt's gear to be able to fill a guild raid with members online at any time, instead of enjoying endgame content.

We don't need any of that. Take that one thing out, and we still have gates based on ability to execute on class and combat role skills, on teamwork, on communication, on building a guild community that can deliver on that, on building skills of guild's individual players in the above to bring them along for the ride. That's the bane of every MMO out there thus far, and the TOR devs fell right into the same mistake. Take that one thing out, and put other carrots in the instances to make players and guilds want to revisit it - aside from the fun of the teamwork, class skill honing / sense of achievement, and guild fun.

This is so outrageously ridiculous. I can't tell you how many guilds over how many decades have wanted to participate in endgame raids, and never have the critical mass of "raid-ready" gear to make it happen, and it causes untold and unnecessary grief, game dissatisfaction, and guild dissatisfaction. It's so negligent in MMO development leadership, its criminal.

Personally, this seems obnoxious (though, maybe i dont understand how it works)

 

SWTOR is HUGE on rolling Alts, i currently have 6 level 50 characters, I have been trying to get these toons all geared up over the last year but every 2 or 3 months there has been some drastic change to gear so its been more or less a pain keeping up. (this goes back to centuarian gear and BM Bags, so its mostly pvp gear).

 

So i have some concerns....

 

1) What happens to my gear, now?

 

Do i have to start over with grinding ranked comms over and over....frankly that gets old, i was enjoying my success in completing a war hero set with one of my toons like this month.

I want to pvp to pvp, not to grind all the time.

^^This is also my biggest concern since I have 6 chars, 3 of which are 50. I'm just not willing to gear them up right now if Makeb is going to make that gear obsolete.

Why can't they stop adding new PvP gear to the game ? What's the purpose ?

Are people who "pvp just to pvp" really such a minority ?

How do you hit 50 prior to Corellia that way? Do you also do any flashpoints?

 

Even with rested xp and doing all heroics and bonus series plus the occasional wz I don't hit 50 on my alts until the 2nd map on Corellia.

Wow, you must be doing something different, I have 11 x 50's, and all but the first 2, and my very last, I have hit 50 on Voss during the bonus series there.

I dont do any pvp, no flashpoints other than the first ones(black talon.essels) and only the orignal space missions you get when you first get your ship, which is 5 missions I think? but never touch space again after that.

But I do every little bonus that comes my way, and even some that are out of the way, I also do most of the heroics and Area 2's and 4's, and I always make sure I park in a cantina or on my ship when I log out for the rested XP.

As for my last toon, I hit 50 on Belsavis, but that was due to using some XP boosts I got out of packs on my other toon.

So going from peoples posts, I can only assume that they are skipping some stuff, especially, the bonus series, and the bonuses during missions, as often they are more XP than the missions themselves.

I know a lot of people miss some of the bonus series because they forget about them as you need to go back to them 5 or 10 levels later or dont even know they exist., like Nar shadda, Alderaan and Hoth.

On the other end...

I feel like those who have been playing since the start do need some new progression.

On the other end...

 

I feel like those who have been playing since the start do need some new progression.

I don't mind progression, but 5 levels? it will be done and dusted in a day or 2, then what?

Hi everyone! While we can't address every concern raised in this thread right now, we can reassure you that the gear you've obtained in our current endgame will continue to be relevant after the expansion is released, and it will provide a great bootstrap into the higher-level content offered by Rise of the Hutt Cartel. You won't be replacing your Dread Guard gear with gear you pick up as you level, and thanks to improvements in the way item power is calculated, we won't be handing out any entry-level gear at the new level cap. You'll hear more about RotHC as we approach its launch, and we'll continue to answer questions and provide more details!

Nice. You'll continue to answer questions. So why don't you tell us more about it now?

I don't mean every little detail, just a bit more. You know, you don't have a very good track record for delivering on your promises, so I would imagine you will understand me for being slightly worried about the lack of information.

What is set in stone and what could be changed by the time Makeb goes live?

What changes (if any) Makeb will bring to various parts of the game (CM items Vs GTN)?

How this new gear will be incorporated into the game? What changes (if any) will it bring?

Do you actually know this stuff at this moment or is Makeb still somewhere in the clouds (no, not cloud computing) at this stage of development?

Um wha..... MMORPG's started out skill based.. it wasn't until games like Everyquest became popular the Level/Grind/Gear formula took hold.

 

It would be more logical to say that he didn't want an RPG if he was asking for a Gear > Skill type game.

Say what?

Every MMO and solo RPG is based at its core on DnD, where level and stats are immensely more important than anything else.

Gear was never a deciding factor in EQ.

All the newer generation of MMO has done is replace the content-heavy requirments of a level dependant game with the content-light requirments of a gear driven one. I'm sure it's only a remarkable coincidence that the marketing weasels have managed to paint level-based gaming as bad and gear-based gaming as good and it has absolutely nothing to do with the latter being much cheaper and easier to make.

Here is the thing. I have yet to play a game where level cap increases is a "thing" and there seems to be alot of people behind the idea.

So you have yet to play an MMO. Level cap increase is a staple in MMO's. Get used to it. This game was never designed to end at level 50.