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--SPOILER-- SW The Last Jedi! Click at your own peril


Zidovain

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You guys are cool. Some people will blow over and go nuts about something like this :D

 

It's important to maintain a sense of humor in these threads. While everyone certainly has a bad day (and I have had my share), it pays to step into the forums with an open mind and a smile on your face. There is enough angst in the world. Nice to see folks not taking things so seriously.

 

As to the OP, while it was clickbait, it was cute. Thanks.

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It's important to maintain a sense of humor in these threads. While everyone certainly has a bad day (and I have had my share), it pays to step into the forums with an open mind and a smile on your face. There is enough angst in the world. Nice to see folks not taking things so seriously.

 

As to the OP, while it was clickbait, it was cute. Thanks.

 

I couldn't agree more! Glad to have put you on a good mood.

 

Have a good one

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I absolutely loved the Last Jedi. The movie gave the Star Wars fibes off clearly but was unlike any of the other movies in ambiance. It really set a unique tone in the movies and it makes me very excited for Episode 9!

 

What I loved to see in the Last Jedi is women finally having a stronger and bigger role in the franchise. Leia always will remain epic, but I was so happy to see that finally Star Wars has moved away from the notion that it was all about men. Rey is an excellent portrayal of a strong female protagonist, Admiral Holdo was brilliant as well, but Leia of course outshined them all. I can only hope that the directors will continue putting many more strong female characters into the universe who aren't afraid to tell men their place when needed!

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Aren't afraid to put men in their place? Do you think like a third grader? Men aren't children, and the last movie treated them like they were. If it were the other way around people would be WHINGING like no tomorrow.

 

Leia slaps Poe, what happens when a man slaps a woman on screen?

 

Gimme a ******* break, it was exalting women at the EXPENSE of men, not on their own merits. Just showing they're as big an *** as men can be....

Edited by CommunityDroidEN
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Aren't afraid to put men in their place? Do you think like a third grader? Men aren't children, and the last movie treated them like they were. If it were the other way around people would be WHINGING like no tomorrow.

 

Leia slaps Poe, what happens when a man slaps a woman on screen?

 

Gimme a f(#*%*g break, it was exalting women at the EXPENSE of men, not on their own merits. Just showing they're as big an *** as men can be....

 

Men aren't children? Might I suggest you look at your own writing and frankly, whining so you'll see how you just disproved your own statement?

 

I am not going to respond to you in a detailed fashion, but from man to man let me give you some advice: I urge you to reconsider your stance and attitude regarding this aspect. You are creating an image of yourself that is rather very negative, to say the least. If this truly is an issue to you as much as it is now, perhaps it is time for some serious considerations regarding your morals and beliefs.

 

And that is all I want to say to someone like you. Don't expect any other response from me.

Edited by Ylliarus
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Aren't afraid to put men in their place? Do you think like a third grader? Men aren't children, and the last movie treated them like they were. If it were the other way around people would be WHINGING like no tomorrow.

 

Leia slaps Poe, what happens when a man slaps a woman on screen?

 

Gimme a f(#*%*g break, it was exalting women at the EXPENSE of men, not on their own merits. Just showing they're as big an *** as men can be....

Leia did not slap Poe to exalt herself at his expense as a woman.

 

First of all, Leia doesn't need to. She's proven herself to be a bad as.s already all on her own, even way back in the original trilogy.

 

Second, I didn't see that as a woman hitting a man type thing. In this movie and TFA, through age, Leia's had a bit of a 'mother hen' role towards all the new faces; Rey, Poe, Finn. Poe was brave but reckless, a lot of lives were lost, his could have been lost and he defied orders. She reprimanded him both as a leader, as feisty Leia and as a motherly type who's both peeved and concerned.

 

I will concede that if Luke had slapped Rey in the face like that there likely would have been some uproar about it but I do not believe the scene was shot to "exalt women at the expense of men". It felt fitting for Leia and the moment.

 

I also don't think men were being treated like children. Poe was being hot-headed with a hero complex (and yes, good intentions of course in wanting to save everyone), and appeared somewhat judgmental towards Holdo from the get-go, even turning to one of the other guys there and going "That's General Holdo?" "Not what I expected" with some arrogance when she's introduced. (He even appears displeased he wasn't given the promotion to leader in Leia's absence). He questions her from the start and when she won't share her plans with him (him being a stranger to her and a recently demoted pilot), he riles against her and attempts to push her out of the play. He gives her no chance, shows no faith and immediately jumps to the whole "I know and can do better" attitude and he's shown up for it, ends up looking the fool which I'd say was deserved.

 

As for "If Holdo had just told him the plan", no, why should she? She outranked him a great deal, it was need-to-know and she doesn't have to explain or justify herself to him. She didn't to anyone else of his rank and she doesn't have to with Poe--people are only up in arms about it because he's Poe and one of the designated 'hero' characters. Now would anyone have cared if Hux had neglected to share his plans with an ensign or lieutenant? I doubt it.

Edited by JennyFlynn
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Leia did not slap Poe to exalt herself at his expense as a woman.

 

First of all, Leia doesn't need to. She's proven herself to be a bad as.s already all on her own, even way back in the original trilogy.

 

Second, I didn't see that as a woman hitting a man type thing. In this movie and TFA, through age, Leia's had a bit of a 'mother hen' role towards all the new faces; Rey, Poe, Finn. Poe was brave but reckless, a lot of lives were lost, his could have been lost and he defied orders. She reprimanded him both as a leader, as feisty Leia and as a motherly type who's both peeved and concerned.

 

I will concede that if Luke had slapped Rey in the face like that there likely would have been some uproar about it but I do not believe the scene was shot to "exalt women at the expense of men". It felt fitting for Leia and the moment.

 

I also don't think men were being treated like children. Poe was being hot-headed with a hero complex (and yes, good intentions of course in wanting to save everyone), and appeared somewhat judgmental towards Holdo from the get-go, even turning to one of the other guys there and going "That's General Holdo?" "Not what I expected" with some arrogance when she's introduced. (He even appears displeased he wasn't given the promotion to leader in Leia's absence). He questions her from the start and when she won't share her plans with him (him being a stranger to her and a recently demoted pilot), he riles against her and attempts to push her out of the play. He gives her no chance, shows no faith and immediately jumps to the whole "I know and can do better" attitude and he's shown up for it, ends up looking the fool which I'd say was deserved.

 

As for "If Holdo had just told him the plan", no, why should she? She outranked him a great deal, it was need-to-know and she doesn't have to explain or justify herself to him. She didn't to anyone else of his rank and she doesn't have to with Poe--people are only up in arms about it because he's Poe and one of the designated 'hero' characters. Now would anyone have cared if Hux had neglected to share his plans with an ensign or lieutenant? I doubt it.

 

This summed up my thoughts on posts that I've seen from others here and elsewhere.

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TLJ is the worst Star Wars movie ever made. It makes the prequels look GOOD. Read that again,

 

Ive been A Star Wars fan since 1977. Ive lived & breathed this franchise for 40 years. TLJ is (apart from one or two humorous scenes with the Porgs) utter ***** on every level.

 

Come back George Lucas, everything is forgiven. I never thought id hear hear myself saying that.

 

I had high hopes for this film, I loved Looper, but Rian Johnson does not know how to make a Star Wars film. With him in charge for the next trilogy, the franchise is finished.

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I absolutely loved the Last Jedi. The movie gave the Star Wars fibes off clearly but was unlike any of the other movies in ambiance. It really set a unique tone in the movies and it makes me very excited for Episode 9!

 

What I loved to see in the Last Jedi is women finally having a stronger and bigger role in the franchise. Leia always will remain epic, but I was so happy to see that finally Star Wars has moved away from the notion that it was all about men. Rey is an excellent portrayal of a strong female protagonist, Admiral Holdo was brilliant as well, but Leia of course outshined them all. I can only hope that the directors will continue putting many more strong female characters into the universe who aren't afraid to tell men their place when needed!

 

Yeah ... there is nothing I love better than being preached to in a STAR WARS movie about strong women by men who either have their own sexual harassment skeletons in their closet or at least were certainly knowledgeable and thus complicit in covering up Harvey Weinstein serial sexual abuse of women.

 

Give us all a break from your sanctimonious BS.

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Yeah ... there is nothing I love better than being preached to in a STAR WARS movie about strong women by men who either have their own sexual harassment skeletons in their closet or at least were certainly knowledgeable and thus complicit in covering up Harvey Weinstein serial sexual abuse of women.

 

Give us all a break from your sanctimonious BS.

 

There was absolutely no need to be this hostile towards me. I am a huge supporter of the cause for equal treatment of women so you really don't need to see me as an enemy or presume that I am being sanctimonious, I am being completely sincere here.

 

The movie might have been directed by a man but don't forget that Kathleen Kennedy stands behind all of it. Yes, the monster Harvey Weinstein is terrible and the entire situation around it is simply put abominable. Yet that is why we need strong female characters like Rey, Leia and Holdo, to battle beasts like Weinstein. We need strong female voices to silence the tyranny sprouted by men like him.

Edited by Ylliarus
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TLJ was terrible. I felt like I was watching a comedy.

Leia flying through space. Hux looking dumber than the 3 Stooges. That scene in the cave with all the Reys and no explanation. Snoke not knowing that Kylo was turning the lightsaber even though he supposedly knows all his thoughts. No explanation on who Snoke is. The pointless scenes with Finn and Rose. Poe acting like an idiot getting basically everyone killed. Luke's death?! What was that a vision of the tatooine suns and some ship flying? Maybe it was Biggs coming to pick him up...:p.

This movie was just all over the place. I am just so disappointed. Honestly, the script writing was better when George Lucas was at the helm.

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TLJ is the worst Star Wars movie ever made. It makes the prequels look GOOD. Read that again,

 

Ive been A Star Wars fan since 1977. Ive lived & breathed this franchise for 40 years. TLJ is (apart from one or two humorous scenes with the Porgs) utter ***** on every level.

 

Come back George Lucas, everything is forgiven. I never thought id hear hear myself saying that.

 

I had high hopes for this film, I loved Looper, but Rian Johnson does not know how to make a Star Wars film. With him in charge for the next trilogy, the franchise is finished.

 

I'd love to know why you think this.

 

I've been a fan for my entire life. I'm as old as Star Wars. I loved this movie. Is it only because I let go of the EU BS? Not sure. :t_confused:

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I'd love to know why you think this.

 

I've been a fan for my entire life. I'm as old as Star Wars. I loved this movie. Is it only because I let go of the EU BS? Not sure. :t_confused:

 

I am of a similar age and read every piece of EU literature. I loved TFA and TLJ also. I'm not finding it hard at all to enjoy this new universe for what it is.

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TLJ was terrible. I felt like I was watching a comedy.

Leia flying through space. Hux looking dumber than the 3 Stooges. That scene in the cave with all the Reys and no explanation. Snoke not knowing that Kylo was turning the lightsaber even though he supposedly knows all his thoughts. No explanation on who Snoke is. The pointless scenes with Finn and Rose. Poe acting like an idiot getting basically everyone killed. Luke's death?! What was that a vision of the tatooine suns and some ship flying? Maybe it was Biggs coming to pick him up...:p.

This movie was just all over the place. I am just so disappointed. Honestly, the script writing was better when George Lucas was at the helm.

 

I might be the most dense person ever about symbolism, but good grief the cave was obvious. Rey didn't need to find her parents to be complete. She was her own woman already. The power is inside her not off with some mysterious parent.

 

And also, this scene was incredibly similar to the scene in ESB where Luke is on Dagobah. He went in the cave and found out what he needed to know, just like Rey found what she needed to know.

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I'd love to know why you think this.

 

I've been a fan for my entire life. I'm as old as Star Wars. I loved this movie. Is it only because I let go of the EU BS? Not sure. :t_confused:

 

But that is exactly it you know, I believe that those who didn't like the movie are too much holding onto the EU continuity and what the books, comics and games did with the story there. I may not be as old as Star Wars and entered the fandom at a later point, but I too have read or played the EU content. Sure, the Thrawn thrilogy is epic and amazing or the Legacy of the Force bookseries. But that is simply not being done and I have let go of that in order to be able to enjoy the new movies. And I have enjoyed both The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi thoroughly. At this point I even prefer this over the EU content because really, how many times can Palpatine return (to name only 1 example).

 

The people who don't like the movies, I think they are going into the movies with too many expectations and wants. Prior to the movie they set in their mind what they want to happen in the story and when it turns out it doesn't happen or it happens differently, their disappointment too swiftly turns into hate. Therein lies the problem, that they don't watch the new movies without their wants for what has to happen and that clouds their vision (or I assume that is the case). I really urge those people to let go of their wants of what has to happen in the new Star Wars movies and simply let yourself be carried by it. Sure, speculation and theorizing is fine, I have done it too, but don't turn it into "this has to happen now or otherwise I will hate it". But most importantly, let go of the EU content when watching these movies. You can love it just as much as I do as the Legends content of the pre-movies era I love the most of all Star Wars content, but don't let it cloud your vision and judgement.

Edited by Ylliarus
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But that is exactly it you know, I believe that those who didn't like the movie are too much holding onto the EU continuity and what the books, comics and games did with the story there. I may not be as old as Star Wars and entered the fandom at a later point, but I too have read or played the EU content. Sure, the Thrawn thrilogy is epic and amazing or the Legacy of the Force bookseries. But that is simply not being done and I have let go of that in order to be able to enjoy the new movies. And I have enjoyed both The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi thoroughly. At this point I even prefer this over the EU content because really, how many times can Palpatine return (to name only 1 example).

 

The people who don't like the movies, I think they are going into the movies with too many expectations and wants. Prior to the movie they set in their mind what they want to happen in the story and when it turns out it doesn't happen or it happens differently, their disappointment too swiftly turns into hate. Therein lies the problem, that they don't watch the new movies without their wants for what has to happen and that clouds their vision (or I assume that is the case). I really urge those people to let go of their wants of what has to happen in the new Star Wars movies and simply let yourself be carried by it. Sure, speculation and theorizing is fine, I have done it too, but don't turn it into "this has to happen now or otherwise I will hate it". But most importantly, let go of the EU content when watching these movies. You can love it just as much as I do as the Legends content of the pre-movies era I love the most of all Star Wars content, but don't let it cloud your vision and judgement.

 

I could not care less about the EU, but I cared about all the movies that came before. The Force Awakens is pretty much ruined by this movie. It pisses on all the mysteries it started with anti-climactic drivel. I can't believe people can't see all the glaring plot holes that TLJ brings to the table.

 

Why did Luke make a map if he did not want anyone to find him? How did Maz get his old lightsaber?

Who is Snoke? and why is he so powerful, but yet so weak that he does not notice that Kylo Ren betrays him?

And if Kylo Ren is so powerful, why did he have such problems fighting those guards? Why did he not just use force choke or something on them?

What happened to the Knights of Ren and the whole backstory?

So Rey is not a Skywalker, then why is she so much more powerful even without any training? Luke and Anakin required long periods of training to get to where they was?

Why did not Leia or Holdo just reveal their plan to Poe?

If one can just use a ship to go into lightspeed and crash into something to cause such destruction. Why did they not use that against the Death Star or anything really?

Poe, Finn and Rose acomplish one major thing in this movie. And that is kill a lot more resistance members by bringing along a code cracker that betrays them and they don't accomplish anything else. What was really the point of their story arc?

If Luke died by doing his projection thing, why could he not just have come and face Kylo Ren anyways?

The First Order chased the Resistance members outside of lightspeed for the entire movie, but why did they not just send some Star Destroyers ahead via lightspeed to cut them off?

 

And there are many more. Don't hide behind the excuse that everyone who did not like this movie has to have some other pre-conception of what they wanted the movie to be. Everyone has some expectations, and I hoped this would have some surprises but I at least expected the movie to make sense. I hated this movie because they tarnished a well established character and they pissed all over the story that they started in TFA. The movie is all over the place with almost half of it a story leading to nothing (Finn and Rose) and it has major plot holes that not just ruins the movie but tarnishes previous ones and the lore as a whole.

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I could not care less about the EU, but I cared about all the movies that came before. The Force Awakens is pretty much ruined by this movie. It pisses on all the mysteries it started with anti-climactic drivel. I can't believe people can't see all the glaring plot holes that TLJ brings to the table.

 

Why did Luke make a map if he did not want anyone to find him? How did Maz get his old lightsaber?

Who is Snoke? and why is he so powerful, but yet so weak that he does not notice that Kylo Ren betrays him?

And if Kylo Ren is so powerful, why did he have such problems fighting those guards? Why did he not just use force choke or something on them?

What happened to the Knights of Ren and the whole backstory?

So Rey is not a Skywalker, then why is she so much more powerful even without any training? Luke and Anakin required long periods of training to get to where they was?

Why did not Leia or Holdo just reveal their plan to Poe?

If one can just use a ship to go into lightspeed and crash into something to cause such destruction. Why did they not use that against the Death Star or anything really?

Poe, Finn and Rose acomplish one major thing in this movie. And that is kill a lot more resistance members by bringing along a code cracker that betrays them and they don't accomplish anything else. What was really the point of their story arc?

If Luke died by doing his projection thing, why could he not just have come and face Kylo Ren anyways?

The First Order chased the Resistance members outside of lightspeed for the entire movie, but why did they not just send some Star Destroyers ahead via lightspeed to cut them off?

 

And there are many more. Don't hide behind the excuse that everyone who did not like this movie has to have some other pre-conception of what they wanted the movie to be. Everyone has some expectations, and I hoped this would have some surprises but I at least expected the movie to make sense. I hated this movie because they tarnished a well established character and they pissed all over the story that they started in TFA. The movie is all over the place with almost half of it a story leading to nothing (Finn and Rose) and it has major plot holes that not just ruins the movie but tarnishes previous ones and the lore as a whole.

 

And herein lies the problem of you wanting to be satisfied here and now. Most of those questions you asked, they will be answered in movie 9. Those are all questions for so much more Star Wars content in and around the movies, but you wanted all of it to be answered in Episode 7. That would have taken away the mystery, the magic of the unknown.

 

The second problem is, sorry that I will say it, somewhat a lack of imagination on your part. I have a feeling that because the movie didn't spell out what happened exactly, that you have all those questions. I don't consider those to be plotholes because I simply fill it in with my imagination. That was the intent of the director, to not spell out everything but have the audience think about the content in the movie. Take the questions you ask about Luke, the chase, Finn and Rose, Holdo not telling etc. and try to think up answers by yourself. I have done just that and did not have a single issue with them being some kind of plothole. You just have to use your imagination and have a will to fill in the holes yourself. You know how boring it would be if the movie spelled out everything? I bet you'd complain then the movie explains too much and is too long...

Edited by Ylliarus
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And herein lies the problem of you wanting to be satisfied here and now. Most of those questions you asked, they will be answered in movie 9. Those are all questions for so much more Star Wars content in and around the movies, but you wanted all of it to be answered in Episode 7. That would have taken away the mystery, the magic of the unknown.

 

The second problem is, sorry that I will say it, somewhat a lack of imagination on your part. I have a feeling that because the movie didn't spell out what happened exactly, that you have all those questions. I don't consider those to be plotholes because I simply fill it in with my imagination. That was the intent of the director, to not spell out everything but have the audience think about the content in the movie. Take the questions you ask about Luke, the chase, Finn and Rose, Holdo not telling etc. and try to think up answers by yourself. I have done just that and did not have a single issue with them being some kind of plothole. You just have to use your imagination and have a will to fill in the holes yourself. You know how boring it would be if the movie spelled out everything? I bet you'd complain then the movie explains too much and is too long...

 

Wow ... just wow. Blaming the audience for lack of imagination to make up for bad script writing and plot holes?

 

What was so good about RG1 was the character development & the fact the story fit in seamlessly with the lead up to ANH. TLJ does a horrible job of fitting in with the TFA, and even goes so far as trashing key aspects of the movie.

 

I have a lot of issues with TLJ, but the biggest is how Johnson pisses all over the final scene of TFA. I rank the last scene of TFA as the second most emotionally impactful scene in Star Wars (only behind Luke & Vader's lightsaber fight in Bespin ... and slightly ahead of the Obi-Wan / Anakin duel). But that scene is absolutely trashed by the recreation of it in TLJ when Johnson decided to turn it into a chance for unneeded comic relief.

Edited by Sportiva
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Wow ... just wow. Blaming the audience for lack of imagination to make up for bad script writing and plot holes?

 

What was so good about RG1 was the character development & the fact the story fit in seamlessly with the lead up to ANH. TLJ does a horrible job of fitting in with the TFA, and even goes so far as trashing key aspects of the movie.

 

I have a lot of issues with TLJ, but the biggest is how Johnson pisses all over the final scene of TFA. I rank the last scene of TFA as the second most emotionally impactful scene in Star Wars (only behind Luke & Vader's lightsaber fight in Bespin ... and slightly ahead of the Obi-Wan / Anakin duel). But that scene is absolutely trashed by the recreation of it in TLJ when Johnson decided to turn it into a chance for unneeded comic relief.

 

Perhaps I was too harsh in my wording, but it is something that I do see a lot happen with movies nowadays. People want everything to be spelled out from A to Z, but at the same time complain that when it happens there is too much detail. People yearn room for interpretation yet at the same time crave every piece of the story to be handed on a platter. It can be a frustrating thing for a writer because whatever you do, you can't seem to do it right because someone will always complain. So what my intention was with what you highlighted was to relay that I personally like to have room for interpretation and see what for example you see as plotholes, I see room for interpretation. If you watch it from a perspective of the entire Star Wars franchise, the plotholes you speak of are an excellent opportunity to be filled in with new novels or comics.

 

As someone who engages in creative writing frequently, let me tell you this: the critique I had in the past from those who read my work was that I was too detailed and left little room for interpretation. It was part of developing my own personal writing style, at the time I loved to spell out everything, yet while a few people like it, a majority didn't. When I started making room for interpretation, the roles switched. The majority of people reading my work complimented me on leaving enough room for their own interpretation, while the previously mentioned small group started berating me for having become lax in my writing and leaving plotholes around. You can't please everyone, but I do think that a majority of people like to have room for interpretation, the same being with the Last Jedi. Again, this is all based on my own assumptions and experiences, but I for certain didn't saw the plotholes as plotholes, but as the mentioned room for interpretation.

 

As to the Luke scene, while I get that to some it might have been an emotional scene, to me it wasn't as much. In fact, I adored the fact that the meeting between Rey and Luke was completely not what we had expected. I simply adored it and giggled with glee when he threw that lightsaber over his back. It was comic relief at the moment, but when I analysed it, it perfectly displayed how bitter Luke had become and how he truly was the fallen hero. It displayed that he didn't want anything to do with the Force or with the galaxy, which in turn showed me how deep his failures had cut. Yet as you can see, perspectives on the matter are different and everyone has of course a right to their own interpretation and feeling towards the movie.

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Aren't afraid to put men in their place? Do you think like a third grader? Men aren't children, and the last movie treated them like they were. If it were the other way around people would be WHINGING like no tomorrow.

 

Leia slaps Poe, what happens when a man slaps a woman on screen?

 

Gimme a ******* break, it was exalting women at the EXPENSE of men, not on their own merits. Just showing they're as big an *** as men can be....

 

Another thing--you say Poe was treated like a child (and in a way he was, deservingly because he acted like one) but it's actually part of his personal growth story.

 

He starts out reckless, defiant, with some attitude and upon his return after Leia slaps him, he argues there were a lot of heroes out there. She tells him; yes, but no leaders. He then appears miffed he's not given leadership in favor if Holdo. He rallies and commits mutiny. Once on the transport, Leia explains Holdo was more interested in saving lives than playing the hero. They get to Crait and while Finn argues rushing outside to go help Luke who's alone, Poe finally sees the light--no, they should not run off to go help Luke, they need to find a way out to save their people, those still alive. He suggests following the crystal foxes, and goes, while everyone else looks to Leia and she tells them "Why are you all looking at me? You heard him, go" which is basically a "Atta boy, you finally understand."

 

Yes, he is treated somewhat like a child, or one could argue he gets the treatment that fits his attitude but essentially if you look past "women exalting at the expense of men", it's actually a story about Poe going from reckless 'flyboy' to a man fit to lead, to someone who now gets what it takes to be a true leader and making the right calls.

 

It didn't dawn on me immediately but it actually makes me appreciate the Poe/Leia/Holdo dynamic in the movie a lot more.

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