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So where are all these Juggs/Guardians dominating the leader boards?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
So where are all these Juggs/Guardians dominating the leader boards?

TonyDragonflame's Avatar


TonyDragonflame
11.25.2013 , 10:15 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Makavelithug View Post
Because Jugg has aoe mezz, aoe cc, force push, force choke, and can damage just as much as a marauder.
lolwhat?
Jugg have one same aoe mezz like mara, have NOT any other aoe cc, force choke its channeled 3 sec joke but not real stun, and overall dps of jugg much more less than mara.

You are wrong in each point bro.

Quote:
You have to understand this is coming from someone that has played marauder since beta, i decided to reroll to jugg due to it being the least played in arena when it comes to dps.
When in times 1.3 I understand what my main guardian its just poor man sentinel, I reroll into sentinel and from these times I NEVER regretted about that.

... but I still wanna play my first toon 98 valor guardian and at least competitive like in pre-2.0 at least
May the Force be with you!
Guardian vr 100 | Sentinel vr 93 | Scoundrel vr 91 | Vanguard vr 90 | Shadow v 85 | Guns v 75
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ishbindeinvater's Avatar


ishbindeinvater
11.25.2013 , 10:48 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by TonyDragonflame View Post
lolwhat?
Jugg have one same aoe mezz like mara, have NOT any other aoe cc, force choke its channeled 3 sec joke but not real stun, and overall dps of jugg much more less than mara.

You are wrong in each point bro.



When in times 1.3 I understand what my main guardian its just poor man sentinel, I reroll into sentinel and from these times I NEVER regretted about that.

... but I still wanna play my first toon 98 valor guardian and at least competitive like in pre-2.0 at least

aoe cc he means the aoe slow
and for me, endure pain is similar to undying rage. both keeps you alive some longer and when you dont get healed you both die.
enraged defense isnt great but it sums up with endure pain and it can be used while stunned. its similar to cloak of pain, because 3% is about 1000 life per second, while the average attack is 5000 (just numbers) this is also about 20 percent reduction.
saber reflect is something a mara gets jealous and is better IMO than force camouflage.
mara doesnt have enrage which is great for rage spec.
self heals with intercede, AND taunts. i even hit enrage and switch to soresu for the strt of a fight... sometimes. about 10 percent better mitigation against everything.

of course, mara is more aggressive, faster, but I really prefer the rage jugg over rage mara, but thats probably just me. I play annihilation mara most time anyway because i rwally have problems with mara rage and keeping shockwave stacks.
ICH BIN DEIN VAAAATEERRRRR !!!!!!!!!!!

Sayrir's Avatar


Sayrir
11.25.2013 , 10:50 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by TonyDragonflame View Post
... but I still wanna play my first toon 98 valor guardian and at least competitive like in pre-2.0 at least
There was no competition pre 2.0

Sorry, I had to.

JP_Legatus's Avatar


JP_Legatus
11.25.2013 , 11:11 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Siorac View Post
Meh, been done to death.

Why would you play Rage/Focus Guardian when you can play the same tree with a Sentinel and you'll have far, far more survivability? Why would you play Vigilance/Vengeance at all (I do play it though, just not in ranked)? And Jugg/Guardian tanks are not on a par with hybrid Vanguards. All known issues.
Yeah this pretty much sums it up. If you're not an operative or Mara or PT, reroll. Because those are clearly BiS for the slots they are in.
Plaje - 55 Assassin Sorcheals - 55 Sorcerer
TheHulkk - 55 Juggernaut Riksa - 55 Marauder
Ophealing - 55 Operative Lolsniper - 55 Sniper
Overpoweredtech - 29 Powertech The Bastion http://www.twitch.tv/plajje

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
11.25.2013 , 01:18 PM | #25
Reasons Marauder>Jugg DPS:

Undying Rage> Endure Pain: why is undying rage better? You take no damage while it is active and you get healed up. Endure Pain gives you health that is easily taken away in the same timeframe. Endure Pain is never going to give you a complete second life like UR with a healer or at least give you 5 seconds of kill potential without dying.

Cloak of Pain> Saber Reflect: Sure, Saber Reflect is much better on paper, but swap targets for 5 seconds or AOE and it's worthless. You might get lucky and reflect one ability if well timed.

Stealth> Intercede: Both can get you out of a hairy situation, but stealth will save you even if rooted and if you LoS, will keep you out of harm's way longer since they won't just insta-leap to you.

30% AOE damage reduction>...?

Crippling Throw> Taunt: Taunt just makes the other team want to attack me more and I'm already super squishy. Lowering healing is far better for an offensive class than a taunt which would be better served being used by an actual tank.

Ability utility>...?: Maras have BT and Predation to offer the group increased utility and damage.

Carnage roots> Vengeance roots: yep.

Heavy armor > Medium armor: It is? I've never noticed a difference.

Basically, off-healing (mostly self-healing) can be worthwhile since there is plenty of damage to heal up, but off tanking is never needed from a DPS class in a 4v4 arena. Having taunts in 8v8 is nice because there are plenty of targets to be taunted and I can easily avoid damage from them on large maps so the taunts are worthwhile. But between 2 taunts on a class, I see no reason to taunt off the tank and give more reason to be the focus target. There just simply isn't any utility offered by a DPS Jugg to warrant bringing them over a Marauder considering how much squishier the class is.

Jugg tanks are another story and that's mostly just due to the overwhelming damage output of PT/VGs right now.
I have opinions and stuff

ishbindeinvater's Avatar


ishbindeinvater
11.25.2013 , 03:26 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
Reasons Marauder>Jugg DPS:

Undying Rage> Endure Pain: why is undying rage better? You take no damage while it is active and you get healed up. Endure Pain gives you health that is easily taken away in the same timeframe. Endure Pain is never going to give you a complete second life like UR with a healer or at least give you 5 seconds of kill potential without dying.
UR is better than endure pain, but similar purpose. UR will get nerfed with the healing so this will not be true anymore.
Quote:

Cloak of Pain> Saber Reflect: Sure, Saber Reflect is much better on paper, but swap targets for 5 seconds or AOE and it's worthless. You might get lucky and reflect one ability if well timed.
are you serious? run to a sniper using cloak and run to a sniper using saber reflect. there is a difference and i wouldnt even compare saber reflect to CoP, more to endless rage
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Stealth> Intercede: Both can get you out of a hairy situation, but stealth will save you even if rooted and if you LoS, will keep you out of harm's way longer since they won't just insta-leap to you.
not everyone can instant leap to you and it heals you and gives protection. you are not using stealth to escape, but to attack again and intercede isnt an escape always. but if i could choose, i would take the stealth.
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30% AOE damage reduction>...?
shield and better armor against all attacks with exceptions. slight win for 30 aoe though
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Crippling Throw> Taunt: Taunt just makes the other team want to attack me more and I'm already super squishy. Lowering healing is far better for an offensive class than a taunt which would be better served being used by an actual tank.
no. 30 reduction is great for a dps to throw out, you cant compare that to CT.
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Ability utility>...?: Maras have BT and Predation to offer the group increased utility and damage.
i would say the taunts. and dont tell me that you use bt and predation so often when you need berserk for shockwave.
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Carnage roots> Vengeance roots: yep.
thought we are comparing rage specs. did you know that veng gets the root too. btw, you forgot unstoppable. but lets stay with rage spec.
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Heavy armor > Medium armor: It is? I've never noticed a difference.
with the shield about 10 percent more mitigation?
Quote:

Basically, off-healing (mostly self-healing) can be worthwhile since there is plenty of damage to heal up, but off tanking is never needed from a DPS class in a 4v4 arena. Having taunts in 8v8 is nice because there are plenty of targets to be taunted and I can easily avoid damage from them on large maps so the taunts are worthwhile. But between 2 taunts on a class, I see no reason to taunt off the tank and give more reason to be the focus target. There just simply isn't any utility offered by a DPS Jugg to warrant bringing them over a Marauder considering how much squishier the class is.

Jugg tanks are another story and that's mostly just due to the overwhelming damage output of PT/VGs right now.
off tanking isnt needed? so why so much complaining about PT in ion who guard?
i see much more purpose of taunts in arenas than warzones. and why should you be the focus target when you taunt?! its not pve.
after the nerf jugg and mara will be quite even. i still prefer my jugg because i can handle him better and feel more valuable in some situations with taunt and stance switching. with my mara i always have the feeling i run around with a sign "hit me". when people see 2 sabers they get aggressive :-)
ICH BIN DEIN VAAAATEERRRRR !!!!!!!!!!!

AngusFTW's Avatar


AngusFTW
11.25.2013 , 03:40 PM | #27
Main reason camo is so good is because it drops target, intercede even getting you into LOS is quite situational depending on where a friendly target is and they still don't drop your target so the 3 guys attacking you still have you in sight ..
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Ottoattack's Avatar


Ottoattack
11.25.2013 , 05:03 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Savej View Post
There are some misconceptions in the community. And any perception weakness at all will result in a landslide in favor of the class without it. Hypothetical example: If it's determined that, overall, dps guardians are 48% and sentinels are 52% in "absolute pvp ability" (numbers and stats are all made up for hypothetical argument) then 90% of the good/best players are going to pvp with sentinels especially since the play styles are so similar. And those dps guardians are going to get yelled at for not playing the 4% better class.

In some arena situations I would rather have a dps guardian on my team than a sentinel - they have a kb, self-heals, an aoe snare, taunts and their dmg is comparable - but sentinels are less vulnerable to focus fire which makes them a bit better most of the time.

Solo q tanking is in general a bad idea. In this game tanks are very dependent on having healers on their team to be effective at tanking. Guard, by design, doesn't mitigate damage to other party members, it just spreads it out (giving healers time to handle burst attacks). Many solo q fights do not have healers. Without the healing component, dps classes that can taunt are almost as good at tanking and are probably more useful for winning.
^This

The problem is that jugg and marauder right tree (rage) and middle tree (carnage and veng) play to some extent similar. Considering that rage jugg and marauder are extremely close in skills used and performance in terms of damage, the differential is utility and survivability. I would argue that rage jugg has better utility, but it is a small margin there. However, its a huge margin in survivability in the marauders favor.

Going back to the quoted from savej above, why play rage jugg, when rage marauder is vastly superior in survivability (assuming all else equals)? Veng is not competitive enough for ranked group arenas. Rage jugg is not bad by any means, in comparison to most dps classes. What hurts them the most is their close proximity to rage marauders, so most players who like the play style and are into competitive PvP have moved to rage marauders.

ManiacDavis's Avatar


ManiacDavis
11.25.2013 , 07:03 PM | #29
The real question is "So where are all these Commando/Mercenaries dominating the leader boards?"
Man-iac - The Only Commando Left Standing
http://www.twitch.tv/rrmaniac

JP_Legatus's Avatar


JP_Legatus
11.25.2013 , 10:32 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by ManiacDavis View Post
The real question is "So where are all these Commando/Mercenaries dominating the leader boards?"
Yeah what maniac said ^

But here's my theory on what really happened to juggs.

Juggernauts are clearly still the best mitigation main tank by a long shot. Sins and PT's don't have intercede or aoe taunt, which basically makes them the best tank to have saving teammates. Everyone was already well aware that jugg dps was squishy and susceptible to focus fire, so juggs just maintanked.

However, when 2.0 dropped the game drastically increased survivability across the board. At this point juggs were probably still the best main tanks, since the other teams had 4 dps, but you did see some weird stuff like 3 healers, one on each node, in civil war or novarre. You might have also seen some other weird stuff like sorc packs in rateds because they can all offheal and are also good at offnodes where those heals and second cc breaker may be handy.

Then finally, arenas dropped. At this point the compositions shifted a little. Instead of 7v7 which usually went to 4 dps, 2 healers and one tank in a fight (with the 8th player at the off node), now you've just got 4 players fighting each other. Well as we all know, nobody is going to die in a scenario where the defense = the offense, and since there are no nodes to guard that is actually kind of a problem. You need more dps to get the job done, and now, to win the warzone.

Enter the powertech: the class which apparently had a hybrid that allows them to basically off-tank and off-dps at the same time, and do both almost as good as a dedicated slot. Most teams apparently didn't get by with a dedicated tank or a third dedicated dps, they needed that PT to give them just enough burst to score kills while still keeping the "tank", because the balance has shifted that far in favor of defense. Juggs don't have the ability to almost do both and neither do sins, so here we are.

TLDR: what happened to juggs? Bioware slowly and stealthily phased them out by changing the meta a few times.
Plaje - 55 Assassin Sorcheals - 55 Sorcerer
TheHulkk - 55 Juggernaut Riksa - 55 Marauder
Ophealing - 55 Operative Lolsniper - 55 Sniper
Overpoweredtech - 29 Powertech The Bastion http://www.twitch.tv/plajje