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Exar Kun Runs the Sith Lords Gauntlet!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Exar Kun Runs the Sith Lords Gauntlet!

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
09.17.2013 , 06:50 PM | #71
Rayla, didn't Exar Kun practically insta-kill Odan-Urr with a Force Blast? Or am I remembering incorrectly?
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
09.17.2013 , 06:58 PM | #72
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Rayla, didn't Exar Kun practically insta-kill Odan-Urr with a Force Blast? Or am I remembering incorrectly?
Nah he just used The Force to kill him.

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"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
09.17.2013 , 06:59 PM | #73
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Rayla, didn't Exar Kun practically insta-kill Odan-Urr with a Force Blast? Or am I remembering incorrectly?
it doesnt go into specifics, just that as Wolf said, he used the Force to kill him, it doesn't specify exactly what power it was.
Kote! Kandosii sa ka'rta, Vode an.
Battle Honour

XSUPREMESKILLZX's Avatar


XSUPREMESKILLZX
09.17.2013 , 07:01 PM | #74
Hey, would anyone mind providing the quote where KJ anderson states exar kun was his most powerful sith? Thanks

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
09.17.2013 , 07:01 PM | #75
Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Stinghen's Avatar


Stinghen
09.20.2013 , 12:25 PM | #76
The Traya fanbase seems to have conveniently forgotten a very particular detail about Exar Kun. He, too, was very capable with Force drain. He used the ability to power the ritual by which he worked his power to willingly become a Dark Side Spirit. Also, after showing his true power to Odan-Urr, the Jedi Master was unable to resist, though he was old, he was certainly very powerful. Still snuffed out by Kun's mere presence.

On the matter of the ritual, the only problem with it was that it was disrupted by not one, but a joint of Jedi Knights and Masters reputed to rank amongst the most powerful Force-users to ever grace the Jedi Order, namely Nomi Sunrider, Master Thon, Tott Doneeta, Sylvar and Oss Willum. And they did not use Sever Force, but rather Wall of Light to entrap Kun on the Temple of Fire. The very reaason they did not turn Sever Force on him suggests that trying to do that with someone as powerful as Exar Kun would be bound to fail.

So perhaps the Force Drain is not so powerful after all, for the similarities that have been stated between it and Sever Force, so Kun just might resist it. Moreover, his area of expertise was actually devoted to a field that Traya had no knowledge of: Sith sorcery. His brushings with the Dark Side also showed him many particular skills Traya was also stated to possess (such as healing oneself with the Force), and his usage of Sith artifacts (as Sadow's Sith Amulet) could offer quite the edge. Could it not perhaps protect its owner? It certainly could be used to devastating effect (the Force Blast being one example). And on top of all that, his great skill as a lightsabre duelist (coming on top of his Master, Vodo-Siosk Baas, even when he was an Apprentice under his tutelage).

Despite his heavy reliance on the Force, I do believe that, due to the fact that Traya herself also relied heavily on the Force, Exar Kun was able to exercise Force drain and that the Drain itself might not be as powerful as people are fond of believing, Kun would come on top.

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
09.20.2013 , 01:17 PM | #77
Quote: Originally Posted by Stinghen View Post
The Traya fanbase seems to have conveniently forgotten a very particular detail about Exar Kun. He, too, was very capable with Force drain. He used the ability to power the ritual by which he worked his power to willingly become a Dark Side Spirit. Also, after showing his true power to Odan-Urr, the Jedi Master was unable to resist, though he was old, he was certainly very powerful. Still snuffed out by Kun's mere presence.

On the matter of the ritual, the only problem with it was that it was disrupted by not one, but a joint of Jedi Knights and Masters reputed to rank amongst the most powerful Force-users to ever grace the Jedi Order, namely Nomi Sunrider, Master Thon, Tott Doneeta, Sylvar and Oss Willum. And they did not use Sever Force, but rather Wall of Light to entrap Kun on the Temple of Fire. The very reaason they did not turn Sever Force on him suggests that trying to do that with someone as powerful as Exar Kun would be bound to fail.

So perhaps the Force Drain is not so powerful after all, for the similarities that have been stated between it and Sever Force, so Kun just might resist it. Moreover, his area of expertise was actually devoted to a field that Traya had no knowledge of: Sith sorcery. His brushings with the Dark Side also showed him many particular skills Traya was also stated to possess (such as healing oneself with the Force), and his usage of Sith artifacts (as Sadow's Sith Amulet) could offer quite the edge. Could it not perhaps protect its owner? It certainly could be used to devastating effect (the Force Blast being one example). And on top of all that, his great skill as a lightsabre duelist (coming on top of his Master, Vodo-Siosk Baas, even when he was an Apprentice under his tutelage).

Despite his heavy reliance on the Force, I do believe that, due to the fact that Traya herself also relied heavily on the Force, Exar Kun was able to exercise Force drain and that the Drain itself might not be as powerful as people are fond of believing, Kun would come on top.
*applauds* very well put, far better post than any of the ones I made, a lot of mine I didn't want to post because it sounded borderline praise rather than fact, so many kudos for finding a way to present his true power without sounding like a fanboy(much like I did).
Kote! Kandosii sa ka'rta, Vode an.
Battle Honour

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
09.20.2013 , 05:03 PM | #78
Quote: Originally Posted by Stinghen View Post
The Traya fanbase seems to have conveniently forgotten a very particular detail about Exar Kun. He, too, was very capable with Force drain. He used the ability to power the ritual by which he worked his power to willingly become a Dark Side Spirit. Also, after showing his true power to Odan-Urr, the Jedi Master was unable to resist, though he was old, he was certainly very powerful. Still snuffed out by Kun's mere presence.

On the matter of the ritual, the only problem with it was that it was disrupted by not one, but a joint of Jedi Knights and Masters reputed to rank amongst the most powerful Force-users to ever grace the Jedi Order, namely Nomi Sunrider, Master Thon, Tott Doneeta, Sylvar and Oss Willum. And they did not use Sever Force, but rather Wall of Light to entrap Kun on the Temple of Fire. The very reaason they did not turn Sever Force on him suggests that trying to do that with someone as powerful as Exar Kun would be bound to fail.

So perhaps the Force Drain is not so powerful after all, for the similarities that have been stated between it and Sever Force, so Kun just might resist it. Moreover, his area of expertise was actually devoted to a field that Traya had no knowledge of: Sith sorcery. His brushings with the Dark Side also showed him many particular skills Traya was also stated to possess (such as healing oneself with the Force), and his usage of Sith artifacts (as Sadow's Sith Amulet) could offer quite the edge. Could it not perhaps protect its owner? It certainly could be used to devastating effect (the Force Blast being one example). And on top of all that, his great skill as a lightsabre duelist (coming on top of his Master, Vodo-Siosk Baas, even when he was an Apprentice under his tutelage).

Despite his heavy reliance on the Force, I do believe that, due to the fact that Traya herself also relied heavily on the Force, Exar Kun was able to exercise Force drain and that the Drain itself might not be as powerful as people are fond of believing, Kun would come on top.
I wouldn't put too much stock in Exar Kun killing Odan Urr - which I expect was some via sort of Force Affliction attack. Odan Urr was not as powerful as Exar Kun in his prime, and over the years likely grew old and frail i.e. weaker in the Force. Making him an easy target for an empowered being such as Kun. Remembering that Traya just as easily broke through Sion's Force Barriers and choked him. I doubt she would have had much trouble doing the same to Urr. And Exar Kun certainly won't be capable of killing Traya so easily.

But on to the main point, the problem here is that we are assuming that Sever Force = Force Drain. It does not. You are correct to point out the similarities, but the differences are of vital importance. Sever Force is an all or nothing attack, it either severs the victim, or it doesn't. Force Drain does exactly what it says on the tin, it drains the target. It is not a one shot ability, only against a considerably inferior opponent, but it will have some effect on even the most powerful of Force users, because there is no defense against it. So while Exar Kun will certainly not be killed, he will be affected, the magnitude of the effect depending on the disparity between Kun and Traya's abilities.

And I think we have substantial evidence to suggest that the disparity is by no means large. Both were exceptionally powerful Force users capable of subduing other Force users of considerably caliber with ease. Also noting that there is no 'cut off point' where Force drain stops working. Traya can drain Exar Kun dry is he let her simply by continuously zapping him in short bursts or a continuous stream. So Kun has to defeat Traya as quickly as possible before he grows to weak to defeat her.

And as a side not I'd also point out the Kun's variant of Force Drain was not the same as Traya's as it was a product of Sith Ritual, not something he is exactly capable of recreating in the midst of a battle. And that Kun didn't seem to favour Force powers in combat much at all. Though not to say he won't use them.

Concerning the Force blast, I've gone over this already but I'll point out again that it is by no means a one-shot kill. Kun was incapable of killing Aleema Keto with it of whom Traya is likely vastly more powerful than. So I doubt it will cause Traya grievous injury, remembering that she is a master over Force healing. Essentially she can restore herself to full health after Kun lands an attack the only way he can kill her is with blow.

To sum it up, in any pitched battle, Kun will grow progressively weaker and Traya continuously stronger. On the other hand Kun has no way of wearing Traya down effectively, as any injuries she suffers she can recover from - just like those pesky Healers types you encounter in warzones Traya will prove very difficult to kill. The only way I see Traya dying is through being overwhelmed in lightsaber combat, but with a strong defensive form - i.e. Soresu - he can hold out against his onslaughts fairly well, and with each bout Kun will be weaker.

In reality, if Traya survives the first attack, Kun is as good as dead.

NOTE: I'm still considering Exar Kun as Exar Kun pre-ritual. Regardless of whether he was a spirit or not when the ritual was completed. I see no reason and have no desire to wade into a quagmire of speculation on exactly how powerful he was when bolstered by 50,000 Massassai. From a combat perspective this is essentially an entirely new character, and one we possess no information on at all. Hopefully Aurbere will bear that in mind when the BattleZone returns.

SPEAKING OF WHICH.

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
09.20.2013 , 05:37 PM | #79
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Concerning the Force blast, I've gone over this already but I'll point out again that it is by no means a one-shot kill. Kun was incapable of killing Aleema Keto with it of whom Traya is likely vastly more powerful than.
And you seem to have ignored my point about Aleema Keto only being knocked out because she herself was a master sorceress, something Traya absolutely wasn't, she summoned a barrier of Dark Side Energy after Exar Kun absorbed her attack, taking a look at the use of Force Blast through the times, it is very very clear that only sorcerers with knowledge of Force Blast are capable of defending against it with any measure of success, Traya is not one of those sorcerers.

The larger the disparity in power between two sorcerers is the difference in effect but even the most powerful sorcerers could not outright defend successfully against Exar Kun's blast, Aleema was out cold and she had summoned something she had quite the proficiency with, a shield/barrier made of pure Dark Side energy, it still knocked her out cold for a day.

When Ommin used it against Nomi and Ulic they had no defence against it and barely managed to get sufficiently out of the way before it hit them full on, Ulic knew the longer the battle took the larger the chance they were killed so before Ommin could summon an even deadlier blast, he got sliced and diced by Qel-Droma.

The fact that Ommin would have killed Nomi and/or Ulic with his attack is most telling, Ommin is nowhere near as powerful as Exar Kun is and the evidence supports the notion that pure Dark Side energy has no defence... apart from other pure Dark Side energy, we saw this clear as day when Bane fought Zannah, he had no defence against those Tendrils, lightsaber nor force barriers worked.

Aleema's survival is not a reason to support the assertion that Exar Kun's force blast isn't deadly, now obviously a Force Blast does not have a definite chance of killing a target, it does however cause serious injury and maiming when it isn't successfully defended against, or in a more extreme case a charged blast with no defence causes total disintegration of the target.

However Jensaarai has made the point that the effect of a Force Blast depends on how much energy is charged, it varies in effect, a short blast knocks you out a charged blast causes severe injury, a blast that is either charged significantly or empowered by rage can disintegrate.

This would give an ample reason for why Kun a lot of the time fights one handed even with both blades ignited, so he can charge an attack whilst he is duelling which is very very effective, instead of standing about and waiting to charge up he engages his opponent with his lightsaber.

Though this is merely Jensaarai's observation, what I have posted is evidence to support or rather debunk the idea that Exar Kun's Force Blasts aren't very dangerous and a lot of the time lethal.
Kote! Kandosii sa ka'rta, Vode an.
Battle Honour

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
09.20.2013 , 06:08 PM | #80
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
And you seem to have ignored my point about Aleema Keto only being knocked out because she herself was a master sorceress, something Traya absolutely wasn't, she summoned a barrier of Dark Side Energy after Exar Kun absorbed her attack, taking a look at the use of Force Blast through the times, it is very very clear that only sorcerers with knowledge of Force Blast are capable of defending against it with any measure of success, Traya is not one of those sorcerers.

The larger the disparity in power between two sorcerers is the difference in effect but even the most powerful sorcerers could not outright defend successfully against Exar Kun's blast, Aleema was out cold and she had summoned something she had quite the proficiency with, a shield/barrier made of pure Dark Side energy, it still knocked her out cold for a day.

When Ommin used it against Nomi and Ulic they had no defence against it and barely managed to get sufficiently out of the way before it hit them full on, Ulic knew the longer the battle took the larger the chance they were killed so before Ommin could summon an even deadlier blast, he got sliced and diced by Qel-Droma.

The fact that Ommin would have killed Nomi and/or Ulic with his attack is most telling, Ommin is nowhere near as powerful as Exar Kun is and the evidence supports the notion that pure Dark Side energy has no defence... apart from other pure Dark Side energy, we saw this clear as day when Bane fought Zannah, he had no defence against those Tendrils, lightsaber nor force barriers worked.

Aleema's survival is not a reason to support the assertion that Exar Kun's force blast isn't deadly, now obviously a Force Blast does not have a definite chance of killing a target, it does however cause serious injury and maiming when it isn't successfully defended against, or in a more extreme case a charged blast with no defence causes total disintegration of the target.

However Jensaarai has made the point that the effect of a Force Blast depends on how much energy is charged, it varies in effect, a short blast knocks you out a charged blast causes severe injury, a blast that is either charged significantly or empowered by rage can disintegrate.

This would give an ample reason for why Kun a lot of the time fights one handed even with both blades ignited, so he can charge an attack whilst he is dueling which is very very effective, instead of standing about and waiting to charge up he engages his opponent with his lightsaber.

Though this is merely Jensaarai's observation, what I have posted is evidence to support or rather debunk the idea that Exar Kun's Force Blasts aren't very dangerous and a lot of the time lethal.
None of this changes the fact that no Force user, ever, has been able to kill another Force user with a single Force blast. So we have no evidence to suggest at all that Traya would just die. That is my point here.

Would she be knocked unconscious? Unlikely. I maintain the argument that as a vastly more powerful Force user than Keto she is is much better stead to resist his power. King Ommin for one should not be underestimated, we have no evidence to suggest that he was nothing short of a considerably powerful Force user. Arca Jeth at least percieved him as so, and on top of that I believe Ommin was empowered both by Freedon Nadd himself and Sith amulets. That's a lot of amps. Without that I doubt his attacks would have been nearly as effective.

I have no doubt that Kun's attack will have a potent effect on Traya and likely temporarily incapacitate her, but she wont just fade into unconsciousness or writhe around in pain. She has a much stronger will than that and her master over Force healing will overcome any injury that Kun inflicts on her.

In terms of application in battle, Kun has never used Force based attacks in combat. So I doubt he will begin with one here. But in the instance that he does not only would Traya have likely had an opportunity to drain his power, but she is certainly not going to give him enough time to charge an attack. And in reality is more than capable of simply evading such a strike. Also noting that rushing in with his blade then blasting her back will not exactly be an effective tactic, as he is in fact pushing his opponent away from him. Giving Traya time to recover and mount a counter attack before Kun engages her with a the blade.