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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

DimeStax's Avatar


DimeStax
07.17.2013 , 01:03 PM | #4971
I think you're trying to fix a moderately bad but tolerable situation, and replace it with a very bad situation. Single-only queues will help no body. There will be people who "randomly" keep getting bad people on their team (much like the same way we "randomly" get 5-10 of the same WZ in a row ), and there will be no way for them to control that other than to stop queuing, and casuals will continue to get stomped as long as they continue to play against more serious players than themselves, which single que doesn't fix.
Sakz <Good Talk> 55 Guardian - The Bastion
Dimes <Good Talk> 55 Gunslinger - The Bastion
Six-t'nine<Synergy> 55 Commando - The Bastion
Nickels <Synergy> 36 Scoundrel - The Bastion

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
07.17.2013 , 01:10 PM | #4972
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
I didn't go back to the thread and check, that has just predominantly been what that thread is about. Devil has made no secret of his abuse of this mechanic in regs while he is trying to get BW to fix it, however. My point is, everyone knows this mechanic is terrible, but it can be used by anyone and has no bearing on the premade argument.

The post I was referring to was in regards to ranked players not abusing mechanics in ranked, but using them in regs. To which I would say, there is no guarantee that the other side won't be using the same mechanics in regs, but certain ranked teams have agreed not to use it against each other (obviously not the case btw since it's being used by at least 1 guild). There is no way in a reg match to agree what you will and will not do, so you use what's available. The same went for bolster bugging before purple crafted items were fixed (and yes, that was still abused in ranked too).
uh...I don't have enough info to get involved in the wall bang thing. what I meant was it was devil, not an LD50 guy, who said he didn't give a crud about regs and would screw around in them, presumably farm, and as you said, wall bang. it wasn't just him. I've seen similar sentiments from other ppl in po5 that were not LD50. not holding the latter up as saints or anything. just pointing out that, in this case, they weren't endorsing or condoning abusing ppl in regs or ignoring objectives in regs just to mess around.
A legacy of meh
Krackerjšck/Krackerjak (VG/PT) | Krackerjack/Deinon (Mando/Merc) | Dežnon (Jugg) | other stuffs
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
TL;DR Bolster is meant to help entry level players, ranked PvP is not entry level PvP.

otherworlder's Avatar


otherworlder
07.17.2013 , 01:13 PM | #4973
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
I'm going to respond to the two bolded parts:

First Bolded: Have to agree with this statement, simply because casual =/= PuG. Not all Casuals are PuGs, and not al PuG's are casual. I did a figurative estimate a few pages back, when something like this;

Assuming a majority split of even 70% casuals and 30% non-casual, you then have to divide those casuals by pug/grouped. A 50/50 split puts 35% of the population as casual PuGs. Even if you assume all casual PuGs are in favor of the split queue, that still puts 65% of the population either against it, or indifferent (Non-casual PuGs).

Truth is, we do not have these numbers/statistics, and those claiming (for a fact!) casual PuG's are the majority are (frankly) pulling it out of their backside. Yes, you could manipulate the figurative numbers above and probably get close to 50% in favor, but that's really not the point. You do not know, I do not know, and trying to play the "majority" card on this isn't going to work because simply... we do not know.

As for the comments about that Blizzard Dev post: It's Irrelevant, Blizzard is not Bioware, we do not have their numbers, their BG/PvP system, their servers, etc... They may be an "industry leader," it does not make them the end all be all in the MMO world. If you like, I'll also find the post where a Dev says Arena's were the biggest mistake to ever happen to WoW.

Finally on that; Premades may be a "small minority" of the PvP community, groups, trios, and duo's are not.


Now for my own point: Yes, there are points where matchmaking becomes in effective... those points are also where Split queue's become in effective as well. The difference is, where matchmaking puts an uneven match together, Split queue's put's nothing together.

I think I've done this example (over and over) but:

Say you're at a critical low population with 32 players available. 15 pugs, 17 group players (3 4-mans, 1 3-man, 1 2-man) of varying skill levels. Matchmaking creates 2 matches (eventually) with all 32 players. Hopefully it pulls 4-man + 4 pugs vs 4-man + 4 pugs, and 4-man+4pugs vs 3-man + 2-man + 3 Pugs. or something of the sort.

Split queues provides no match for either side.

Outsider: O.o but Doom, that's a grossly over complicated, specific, unlikely to happen example. Besides everyone knows there's more Pugs than groups!

Alright, 32 players again, 20 pugs and 3 4-mans.

Of course, 16 pugs get to play which is sweet. But 12 grouped players and 4 pugs (16) are sitting out. 12 f them have an indefinite queue time, and 4 of them cycle in every 10-15 minutes.

Throw in 2's and 3's, into that, and you're stuck with a logistical cluster-**** in the group queue, all so PuG's can get stomped by each other instead of a "Premade." It's just bad sense to go for a "Simple Solution" that hurts more than it helps and doesn't actually solve the root problems of stomping/advantages.
The post by Blizzard devs on the psychology, unfairness, and business ineffectiveness of allowing premades to queue against solo puggers is anything but irrelevant. It is squarely, firmly on point and it always will be.

These are the same customers. They are looking for the same type of experience. They play the same MMOs. Nothing is different except that BW mishandled the brand and the state of pvp to the point that we have a much smaller available pool than WoW does. Human nature does not change.

Blizzard, above all, knows how to make money. They would never, EVER have implemented their queue changes if the premades were the majority of their paying customers. If the two segments of the population were roughly equal, they probably still would not have acted. That they went out of their way to not only change the system but even condemn the notion of premade vs pug should tell you everything you need to know: casuals are where the MMO money is, and they have spoken.

Nothing is different here except the people holding the reigns. The style of WZ pvp is almost identical to BG pvp. The people partaking are the same type of MMO player. Why would you assume the conclusions would be so radically different in TOR?

PvP must be fun for people to continue doing it, in the same way PvE must be fun (even and perhaps especially when it's challenging). If the PvP is not fun due to unbalanced teams, whether perceived or otherwise, the pvpers will leave.

Anyone attempting to discredit the Blizzard post is not looking at this scientifically. It is the SAME target market guys, the same metrics, the same feedback.

The solution? I agree, it's elusive. The best is cross server (not going to happen) the next best is just infusing the game with a bigger population across all servers. That's only going to happen if BW starts listening to the majority of its customers and giving them what they want, for which they have a very poor track record.

otherworlder's Avatar


otherworlder
07.17.2013 , 01:20 PM | #4974
And I'm not certain why you referenced the Blizzard dev's post about arenas. They've been very vocal about what a disaster that was and continues to be (largely due to how it forced them to play pinball with class balancing for years) and they only kept it in because player feedback ultimately revealed that the arena population knew how unfair/comp-based it was but still enjoyed it enough to take it as it was.

And despite what a train wreck it was for Blizzard to deal with, BW is still going ahead and adding something similar to their own game. They don't listen to their customer base, or follow industry trends on that point either.

otherworlder's Avatar


otherworlder
07.17.2013 , 01:33 PM | #4975
Quote: Originally Posted by DimeStax View Post
I think you're trying to fix a moderately bad but tolerable situation, and replace it with a very bad situation. Single-only queues will help no body. There will be people who "randomly" keep getting bad people on their team (much like the same way we "randomly" get 5-10 of the same WZ in a row ), and there will be no way for them to control that other than to stop queuing, and casuals will continue to get stomped as long as they continue to play against more serious players than themselves, which single que doesn't fix.
You're missing the point.

If you take 16 players and willfully group 4 of the best (a coordinated, experience premade) onto one team and distribute the rest randomly, it is inherently more prone to imbalance than if those 4 skilled players were also distributed at random.

You will always have a much better shot at something resembling balance if the bads and the goods are equally distributed across both teams as much as is possible. Balance = fun.

Nothing is foolproof. Bad matchups will still happen. But back-to-back-to-back curbstompings that drive players away will not.

The good players should help drag up the bad players on both sides. The good players should NOT gang up on one side and obliterate the other side. That drives casual pvpers (and even worn-out hardcore ones like me) away from the game.

maverickmatt's Avatar


maverickmatt
07.17.2013 , 02:22 PM | #4976
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
uh...I don't have enough info to get involved in the wall bang thing. what I meant was it was devil, not an LD50 guy, who said he didn't give a crud about regs and would screw around in them, presumably farm, and as you said, wall bang. it wasn't just him. I've seen similar sentiments from other ppl in po5 that were not LD50. not holding the latter up as saints or anything. just pointing out that, in this case, they weren't endorsing or condoning abusing ppl in regs or ignoring objectives in regs just to mess around.
Nothing personal, but read it again..
Quote: Originally Posted by ImInTheWorld View Post
I almost forgot about the "wall bang" thing. Here is my opinion on that. Of course it is OP. It is the most OP thing ever put in the game. *snip*

I'll admit I will abuse the **** out of in regs and I think most people won't mind that because its just regs. Being on Pot5 for a month now I can tell the majority of the sever could give a **** less about a win or loss in regs by they way everyone plays and rage quits.
.
He was clearly saying that abuse of mechanics are irrelevant in regs, and from experience I can tell you that the majority of competitive players carry this attitude for whatever reason (as Jade pointed out, you can't assume the other side ISN'T using them).

Add this knowledge to the advantages Premades already carry, and it's a recipe for disaster. Not only are they likely more coordinated, skilled, geared, better composed, and more versed in the nuances of each map, but now we have verifiable proof that at least some (if not most) use broken mechanics to beat opponents that they should already beat anyways.

There is growing distaste for competitive players in the PvP community. It is unfortunate that you primarily see them in premades, because that leads to the perception that ALL premades are of the same mindset. We live in a world where perception DOES equal reality (i.e. it doesn't matter what it was, it's what it looks like), and it drives players away en masse.
MavŽrÔck

"Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less."

cashogy_reborn's Avatar


cashogy_reborn
07.17.2013 , 02:30 PM | #4977
Quote: Originally Posted by maverickmatt View Post
Nothing personal, but read it again..


He was clearly saying that abuse of mechanics are irrelevant in regs, and from experience I can tell you that the majority of competitive players carry this attitude for whatever reason (as Jade pointed out, you can't assume the other side ISN'T using them).

Add this knowledge to the advantages Premades already carry, and it's a recipe for disaster. Not only are they likely more coordinated, skilled, geared, better composed, and more versed in the nuances of each map, but now we have verifiable proof that at least some (if not most) use broken mechanics to beat opponents that they should already beat anyways.

There is growing distaste for competitive players in the PvP community. It is unfortunate that you primarily see them in premades, because that leads to the perception that ALL premades are of the same mindset. We live in a world where perception DOES equal reality (i.e. it doesn't matter what it was, it's what it looks like), and it drives players away en masse.
you are very whiny today.
Dany - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
The King of Bads

maverickmatt's Avatar


maverickmatt
07.17.2013 , 02:49 PM | #4978
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy_reborn View Post
you are very whiny today.
And you are very.... disagreeable. Everyday.

It's not whining. It's calling spades..... spades.
MavŽrÔck

"Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less."

DimeStax's Avatar


DimeStax
07.17.2013 , 03:12 PM | #4979
Quote: Originally Posted by otherworlder View Post
You're missing the point.

If you take 16 players and willfully group 4 of the best (a coordinated, experience premade) onto one team and distribute the rest randomly, it is inherently more prone to imbalance than if those 4 skilled players were also distributed at random.

You will always have a much better shot at something resembling balance if the bads and the goods are equally distributed across both teams as much as is possible. Balance = fun.

Nothing is foolproof. Bad matchups will still happen. But back-to-back-to-back curbstompings that drive players away will not.

The good players should help drag up the bad players on both sides. The good players should NOT gang up on one side and obliterate the other side. That drives casual pvpers (and even worn-out hardcore ones like me) away from the game.
You're forgetting that the "Good Players" quing will not be randomly distributed between two teams that will necessarily play against each other. There are two separate factions, a Republic player will never be put with an Imperial team, and the ques will still be based on first come first serve, so if 4 good players que at the same time, they are likely to get grouped together anyway. Meaning, you're still going to have premades even with a Single-Que only bracket. Random does not equal more fair, by any measure whatsoever. It's not in any way shape or form a fix for anything and will only bring more frustration and WZ leaving to "Queue dodge" bad players you don't want be in a queue cycle with or to try and join the same WZ that your friend got into.
Sakz <Good Talk> 55 Guardian - The Bastion
Dimes <Good Talk> 55 Gunslinger - The Bastion
Six-t'nine<Synergy> 55 Commando - The Bastion
Nickels <Synergy> 36 Scoundrel - The Bastion

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
07.17.2013 , 03:21 PM | #4980
Quote: Originally Posted by maverickmatt View Post
Nothing personal, but read it again..


He was clearly saying that abuse of mechanics are irrelevant in regs, and from experience I can tell you that the majority of competitive players carry this attitude for whatever reason (as Jade pointed out, you can't assume the other side ISN'T using them). .
how is this not what I said? lol
A legacy of meh
Krackerjšck/Krackerjak (VG/PT) | Krackerjack/Deinon (Mando/Merc) | Dežnon (Jugg) | other stuffs
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
TL;DR Bolster is meant to help entry level players, ranked PvP is not entry level PvP.