Not gonna lie I kinda skim read that... too eager to get into the battle!.

 

Thank you for that insight though, I shall go over it and give it a proper read now.

To be honest, it's not my best work. I kinda rushed through it. But I assure you that the next one will be very detailed.

(when Mace Windu punches a man six times before the guy can blink)

.

I think we should also remember that combat and just about everything else in the original CW series is grossly exaggerated. There is no possible chance that Windu could have performed so well against those super battle droids else he would have soloed them all in the Geonosian arena.

So yes, I'd take it with a heavy heaping of salt.

... didn't work out.

 

I think we should also remember that combat and just about everything else in the original CW series is grossly exaggerated. There is no possible chance that Windu could have performed so well against those super battle droids else he would have soloed them all in the Geonosian arena.

 

So yes, I'd take it with a heavy heaping of salt.

Yeah, I know. But I just remember watching the Windu punching everything scene at eight years old and rolling all over the floor and laughing. It was just too epic! But you're right, not too practical against Savage.

I can agree that hand-to-hand combat wouldn't go in Vos' favor. I was merely asserting that Vos could defend himself while unarmed. How long is up for debate.

/debate

Not long at all!

 

/debate

 

That's under the assumption that Vos would be disarmed at all.

That's under the assumption that Vos would be disarmed at all.

Well, given that Savage has disarmed/incapacitated almost every opponent he has fought one on one - save Sidious - and that Vos has a very weak defense, I'd say its a high possibility indeed.

Well, we'll see. Like I said, that's up for debate. I will leave it to the Vos backers to contend that point.

It's clear that Vos's skill is way more refined than Opress's. Taking just the theory, the logical choice would be Vos. But Savage Opress has showed, with opponents considerably more skilled, that his brute force and physical superiority compensates this disadvantage.

Taking all that, I go with Savage Opress.

It's clear that Vos's skill is way more refined than Opress's. Taking just the theory, the logical choice would be Vos. But Savage Opress has showed, with opponents considerably more skilled, that his brute force and physical superiority compensates this disadvantage.

 

Taking all that, I go with Savage Opress.

Honostly I think everyone is forgetting what a mastery of mental and spiritual aspects of vapaad actually mean for this fight. The mental and spiritual aspects of vapaad were all about using the darkness in your enemy and yourself and combining it and bring it to bear on you opponent. Ultimately Savage's strength should be his downfall since all of that strength will simply plant itself in Vos, thus causeing both of them to be of equal strength and speed meaning the battle would be decided entirely on skill.

And well with skill being the only thing that truly matters Vos clearly wins this. Savage may have the power but with the mental and spiritual mastery of Vapaad all of that power will simply work against him not for him as so many here seem to think.

Any way that's my 2 credits take it or leave it.

Honostly I think everyone is forgetting what a mastery of mental and spiritual aspects of vapaad actually mean for this fight. The mental and spiritual aspects of vapaad were all about using the darkness in your enemy and yourself and combining it and bring it to bear on you opponent. Ultimately Savage's strength should be his downfall since all of that strength will simply plant itself in Vos, thus causeing both of them to be of equal strength and speed meaning the battle would be decided entirely on skill.

 

And well with skill being the only thing that truly matters Vos clearly wins this. Savage may have the power but with the mental and spiritual mastery of Vapaad all of that power will simply work against him not for him as so many here seem to think.

 

Any way that's my 2 credits take it or leave it.

We also have to remember that despite Savage's formidable power he does not possess vast amounts of power in the dark side. His strength is mainly physical, something Vaapad will be unable to draw on. Instead Vos will be drawing on Savage's rage (which will take time to build) and fairly average strength in the dark side - nowhere near sufficient enough to match Savage's abilities and defend against his brute power.

Vaapad is also nigh nullified if Vos loses his lightsaber. Yes he can rely on martial arts but Savage can absorb and evade such attacks with relative ease. However Vos evidently can't take that kind of damage, see

Nobody's forgetting that, however it is by no means an insta-win. Firstly its highly possible that Savage will overwhelm Vos before he's even able to slip into Vaapad and it does not provide a strong defense against Force pushes - a lightsaber can't deflect that, only a Force push can.

 

We also have to remember that despite Savage's formidable power he does not possess vast amounts of power in the dark side. His strength is mainly physical, something Vaapad will be unable to draw on. Instead Vos will be drawing on Savage's rage (which will take time to build) and fairly average strength in the dark side - nowhere near sufficient enough to match Savage's abilities and defend against his brute power.

 

Vaapad is also nigh nullified if Vos loses his lightsaber. Yes he can rely on martial arts but Savage can absorb and evade such attacks with relative ease. However Vos evidently can't take that kind of damage, see

- with a couple of kicks Bane takes him out of the fight for a good 40 seconds - incapacitating him. Plenty of time for Savage to employ the headbutt of death.

You forget the source of Savage's vaunted strength... the dark side spell the witches cast on him. All of that is dark side energy that Vapaad can draw upon.... And vapaad was more then a saber form in fact the saber portion of the form was not what Vos mastered only the mental and the spiritual aspects. These are the things that allowed Windu to redirect sidious lightning back at him with a saber.... its possible Vos could do the same with a force push as if it were a blaster bolt. Vapaad doesn't seem to take time to get into either its like any other form it would take the same time to get into it as it would for him to draw his saber, Savage's strength will ultimately be meaningless because the source of the strength is darkside energy Which Vapaad can draw upon.

Its not an insta win it just means the question is not who is stronger but who is more skilled and that awnser comes nice and easy Vos is. If Savage was more skilled then he could over come Vos but the fact of the matter he isn't so when facing an opponent with the same strength and speed and with more skill the outcome should be easy to predict.

You forget the source of Savage's vaunted strength... the dark side spell the witches cast on him. All of that is dark side energy that Vapaad can draw upon.... And vapaad was more then a saber form in fact the saber portion of the form was not what Vos mastered only the mental and the spiritual aspects. These are the things that allowed Windu to redirect sidious lightning back at him with a saber.... its possible Vos could do the same with a force push as if it were a blaster bolt. Vapaad doesn't seem to take time to get into either its like any other form it would take the same time to get into it as it would for him to draw his saber, Savage's strength will ultimately be meaningless because the source of the strength is darkside energy Which Vapaad can draw upon.

 

Its not an insta win it just means the question is not who is stronger but who is more skilled and that awnser comes nice and easy Vos is. If Savage was more skilled then he could over come Vos but the fact of the matter he isn't so when facing an opponent with the same strength and speed and with more skill the outcome should be easy to predict.

He may not be able to bypass his defenses or disarm him but that doesn't matter, all he needs to do his batter him away. I still think that even with the minor benefits Vaapad will provide it will not be enough to match his physical strength.

EDIT: I mean Vos may be able to draw on Savage's rage and dark side power but he won't be able to call on the natural strength and agility that the Nightsister magics provided him with. I'd even question whether he can draw on any residual magic at all.

EDIT: I think we also need to revist forms. Vos wields Vaapad, Juyo, Ataru and Makashi. The first three are severly lacking in defense and Makashi is weak against power attacks. I'm not sure what form Savage uses but its aggresive and demands that the opponent falls back on the defensive, something Vos will have difficulty doing.

Beni, you are forgetting that Vos's reverse grip indicates at least some Shien training. Even a small defense is a better defense than no defense at all. Also, his forms don't need to be defensive. They just need to be offensive. The arena, the Temple of Deveron (was it Editt?) is a wide open, outdoor space- perfect for a master of ataru. He will have space for acrobatics and can dodge most of the attacks from Opress. Even though a weak application, lightning could still hurt (probably a minor burn) Savage, and spark rage within him. Vaapad could counter his rage, and make Vos stronger. He could use Juyo's assured strike and Vornskr's Ferocity, or use Swift Flank to damage Savage.

His skill with a lightsaber is extremely powerful. But what happens if he is disarmed? He can use lightning- Savage has never countered lightning, or use telekinesis to protect himself. Ataru could allow him to use acrobatics to escape. He could also use force cloak to escape Savage and then hide his presence while to waits. Martial arts could also buy him time, if need be.

Also, Vos has speed on his side. He is, although debatable, faster (or on par with) Ventress in speed. In the battle of Obi+Ventress vs. Savage+Maul, Ventress was able to evade almost all of Savage's attacks, and when hit, immediately was back up, with no stunning. If anything, Vos is more like Ventress than Dooku, and is more likely to react as Ventress does to Savage's attacks.

Also, if he is using his double bladed saber, he has the disadvantage of having a larger target to strike.

Beni, you are forgetting that Vos's reverse grip indicates at least some Shien training. Even a small defense is a better defense than no defense at all. Also, his forms don't need to be defensive. They just need to be offensive. The arena, the Temple of Deveron (was it Editt?) is a wide open, outdoor space- perfect for a master of ataru. He will have space for acrobatics and can dodge most of the attacks from Opress. Even though a weak application, lightning could still hurt (probably a minor burn) Savage, and spark rage within him. Vaapad could counter his rage, and make Vos stronger. He could use Juyo's assured strike and Vornskr's Ferocity, or use Swift Flank to damage Savage.

 

His skill with a lightsaber is extremely powerful. But what happens if he is disarmed? He can use lightning- Savage has never countered lightning, or use telekinesis to protect himself. Ataru could allow him to use acrobatics to escape. He could also use force cloak to escape Savage and then hide his presence while to waits. Martial arts could also buy him time, if need be.

And Savage getting angry could just as well lead to Vos getting knocked down to Vaapad bolstering his power. Yes he can use his rage to empower himself but its not going to make him superhuman, most likely he'll use it to sustain his Ataru - but it won't lessen the sheer force that Savage will be bringing down on him. And then we have to consider Force powers, spinning about and around Savage is all well and good but a Force wave would resolve that problem. Not to mention the fact that a saberstaff gives him an excellent defense and makes it difficult for Vos to out manoeuvre him.

And again in the midst of combat, the chances that Vos will use Force cloak, which requires a considerable measure of concentration, while being borne down upon by a relentless opponent, is slim. Nor is there anywhere he can really flee. Especially if we consider that if Vos is disarmed it will be via throwing him against a wall where he can easily be cornered. And also likely temporarily stunned. Nor does he seem the sort of character to run from a fight.

Lightning is an option, but we have to remember that Dooku's lightning is far more powerful than anything Vos can perform. We also have to consider whether Vos, a Jedi, will be able or willing to do it. But if he does I'm confident that given Savage's incredible endurance he can power through it just like his brother did against a Nightsister.

Vos wins

Vaapad will help him feed off Opress's anger and eventually the brute will fall victim to his own anger!

Those who mastered vaapad are deadly to sith who rely on anger !

Vos might not be the Master of it like Windu but he is enough to take down Opress .

Also, Vos has speed on his side. He is, although debatable, faster (or on par with) Ventress in speed. In the battle of Obi+Ventress vs. Savage+Maul, Ventress was able to evade almost all of Savage's attacks, and when hit, immediately was back up, with no stunning. If anything, Vos is more like Ventress than Dooku, and is more likely to react as Ventress does to Savage's attacks.

 

Also, if he is using his double bladed saber, he has the disadvantage of having a larger target to strike.

After receiving kick to the head he responds by outmaneuvering and disarming her with a strike in the back. Then proceeds to chuck her across the room. He manages to evade the full force of the crates Ventress throws at him and when she jumps on his head he simply pulls her off. When Ventress unleashes a flurry of punches to his side, he absorbs them and responds with a punch of her own, which is enough to knock her back. And finally after receiving another blow to the back she finally retrieves her lightsaber. I'd say Savage performed better in terms of martial ability.

And in terms of speed, lets not forget

So if Vos reacts in a similar manner to Ventress, he will be dead in short order.

And Vos may be able to destroy his weapon, but he could still have a single blade to function with, is perfectly capable of martial attacks and can use his Force powers to keep Vos away and potentially disarm him as well and in an unarmed brawl Savage would win by a long mile.

I think I should take this moment to stress that Vaapad will not protect Vos from a punch in the gut or the raw force of Savage's blade colliding with his.

I think Savage's agility is being slightly overestimated. Granted he's good at dodging attacks, but he's been outflanked before. As we know, Ataru masters are capable of great speed. It is likely that Vos' skills in Ataru, particularly his speed, will be further enhanced by the Vaapad technique.

And

Combine that with his duel with the Jedi Master and I'd say he's exceptionally agile and that his agility has clearly been bolstered by Nightsister magic. Perhaps he's not as fast as Vos, but he's fast enough to counter his skill with Ataru (if we also take into account his considerable defense) even while bolstered by Vaapad. And any attacks that slip through can be absorbed.

I'm not aware of any significant moment in which Savage has been outflanked, at least not by an opponent wielding a lightsaber.

And what happens if he is outflanked by a lightsaber wielding opponent? Bearing the environment in mind, the possibility of Savage being flanked is there. What happens next is up for debate.

Does Vos swiftly slash Savage like he did to Sora Bulq? Note that he catches Sora Bulq off guard with the final attack and kills him. Also remember that Sora Bulq pretty much outclassed every Jedi in the Order that wasn't Mace Windu, Qui-Gon Jinn, Master Yoda, and Jedi Master/Count Dooku.

Or does Savage turn to re-engage?

I feel option one is most likely. Consider the inherent speed of Ataru users and the Vaapad technique "Swift Flank."

However his agility is pretty evident:

 

we see him perform an elaborate flip in an attempt to flank Sidious.

And then his attacks are effortlessly dodged and he is brutally murdered. By Darth Sidious, of course.

It's funny that evidence like this is provided for Vader and the response is "Duurr, Vader slow..."

And

we see him perform an even more elaborate sweep at a such a speed that he becomes a blur.

I didn't see it.

Combine that with his duel with the Jedi Master and I'd say he's exceptionally agile and that his agility has clearly been bolstered by Nightsister magic. Perhaps he's not as fast as Vos, but he's fast enough to counter his skill with Ataru (if we also take into account his considerable defense) even while bolstered by Vaapad. And any attacks that slip through can be absorbed.[/color]

Well, that guy was kinda no name... I mean, he's not really impressive, but let's work with that.

Halsey doesn't attempt to outflank Savage, instead he tries to beat him to death. Note the maneuvers listed above. I believe Vos would be able to outflank Savage.

Something else I remembered. I believe Quinlan Vos was able to Force Push Master K'Kruhk (who is very physically similar to Savage). So that's something to consider. Debate the point as you please, because that's off of memory.

And what happens if he is outflanked by a lightsaber wielding opponent? Bearing the environment in mind, the possibility of Savage being flanked is there. What happens next is up for debate.

 

Does Vos swiftly slash Savage like he did to Sora Bulq? Note that he catches Sora Bulq off guard with the final attack and kills him. Also remember that Sora Bulq pretty much outclassed every Jedi in the Order that wasn't Mace Windu, Qui-Gon Jinn, Master Yoda, and Jedi Master/Count Dooku.

 

Or does Savage turn to re-engage?

 

I feel option one is most likely. Consider the inherent speed of Ataru users and the Vaapad technique "Swift Flank."

We should also note that the Sora Bulq incident happened because Bulq was preparing to land a killing blow, it was unexpected. In fact Vos had his back turned and was on his knees (not sure why? were they having some sort of meditation battle of something? ) So I don't think it can be translated into a pitched battle scenario.

And then his attacks are effortlessly dodged and he is brutally murdered. By Darth Sidious, of course.

 

It's funny that evidence like this is provided for Vader and the response is "Duurr, Vader slow..."

But yeah, Savage's size by no means hampers his agility. He may not be roadrunner but the fact remains that the Nightsister magic enhanced his speed among other things. Is this really any different from Vos enhancing his speed with the Force? Not really. So we can only say Vos is faster because of his build. But then again Savage is also capable of enhancing his speed with the Force, which is why I believe in terms of speed neither has a considerable edge over the other. They are fairly equal.

I didn't see it.

Well, that guy was kinda no name... I mean, he's not really impressive, but let's work with that.

 

Halsey doesn't attempt to outflank Savage, instead he tries to beat him to death. Note the maneuvers listed above. I believe Vos would be able to outflank Savage.

Something else I remembered. I believe Quinlan Vos was able to Force Push Master K'Kruhk (who is very physically similar to Savage). So that's something to consider. Debate the point as you please, because that's off of memory.

 

Something else I remembered. I believe Quinlan Vos was able to Force Push Master K'Kruhk (who is very physically similar to Savage). So that's something to consider. Debate the point as you please, because that's off of memory.

K'Kruhk is actually much heavier then Savage their height is closer though, average height for a Whiphid is 8'2. Savage post transformation he is only 6'8, but weight? Savage is only 319 pounds post transformation, K'Kruhk if going by average would be 881 pounds.

Now this is questionable. Savage may have been transformed by the dark side but does that mean he's exhuming with it? Or was that power simply transferred into muscle? I certainly wouldn't say that all his power is dark side energy. He is still exceptionally tall and muscled. And I'd question whether Vos can draw on that kind of power. And even if he can, Savage's power is not sufficient enough for Vos to match his raw power, nowhere near enough. It still remains that Savage can knock Vos off his feet with a single strike - Savage has managed to overwhelm the combined strength of two Jedi and was even able to sustain a blade lock with Darth Sidious, something Maul was unable to do.

 

He may not be able to bypass his defenses or disarm him but that doesn't matter, all he needs to do his batter him away. I still think that even with the minor benefits Vaapad will provide it will not be enough to match his physical strength.

 

EDIT: I mean Vos may be able to draw on Savage's rage and dark side power but he won't be able to call on the natural strength and agility that the Nightsister magics provided him with. I'd even question whether he can draw on any residual magic at all.

 

EDIT: I think we also need to revist forms. Vos wields Vaapad, Juyo, Ataru and Makashi. The first three are severly lacking in defense and Makashi is weak against power attacks. I'm not sure what form Savage uses but its aggresive and demands that the opponent falls back on the defensive, something Vos will have difficulty doing.

Well we can kind of tell that he is exhuming it since when you see him killed you can literally watch the sisters spell flee his body and yes it would instantly put Vos on an equal strength lvl a jedi's strength is almost entirely dependent on the force not on physical muscle (luminous being are they not this crude matter) So even if his mucles looked weaker it doesn't mean anything if he is able to draw on the sisters spell his strength will be the same as Savages. Vapaad was the only reason Windu was able to last more then 5 seconds against sidious let alone beat him. With Vapaad (only the mental and spiritual) feeding him all of Savages brute strength and then his skill with the ataru form he should be able to easily flank and hit savage with strikes just as powerful as savage's own blows with how skilled Vos is in ataru the fight shouldn't last long.