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Are MMOs fulfilling their potential?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Are MMOs fulfilling their potential?

XantosCledwin's Avatar


XantosCledwin
05.13.2013 , 01:24 PM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by Kilora View Post
I have to disagree with this argument. EVERYTHING in life can be an addiction. Literally everything has the potential for it. Television is an addiction. Technology as a whole is an addiction. Hiking can be an addiction. Working out can be an addiction.

The problem here? With the majority of these things, there is no PHYSICAL addiction. You can develop a mental addiction for absolutely anything. Quite literally, I had a friend in College who was addicted to chapstick. If she lost hers, she would have a full-blown anxiety attack. Granted, she also had OCD and it was highly tied to that, but OCD is more common than people think. Just to varying degrees of severity.

Calling things like this an addiction do more harm than good. In two ways:

1.) It belittles the severity of actual addiction. Like methamphetamines, cigarettes, opiates, etc.
2.) It takes focus off of personal responsibility. Blaming the "addiction" is quite common -- and used as an excuse for most people to continue with their addiction, or for others to be enablers.

When an addiction begins to have SEVERE negative affects, it should be dealt with. Like gambling addiction, alcoholism, eating disorders, etc.

If an MMO (or any video game, for that matter) starts to affect you that strongly -- to the point where you literally do nothing else, or get fired for staying home, or allow your health to erode severly, or spend all of your money on them, etc. -- it can be considered an addiction.

To say that, because something has the potential to be abused and form an addiction, it is inherently an addiction -- that is completely flawed.
So you have never heard of people who have been financially ruined by MMO's... or for that matter the people who fell over of exhaustion because of a particular boss fight in Final Fantasy XI that at that point in the games history was literally unwinnable without serious hacks and even with said hacks took over 48 hours of continuous play from a full 18 man raid party (this last fact is in true despite the publicity released by the company afterwards) and to save face said company had to seriously increase the level cap and legally permitted some of those same hacks to remain in the game.
55 Mara / 14 Sniper / 2 Inq
41 Sin / 38 PTech / 31 Sage / 24 Vngrd / 11 Jugg
The Cledwin Legacy / The Shadowlands

Kilora's Avatar


Kilora
05.13.2013 , 01:32 PM | #62
Quote: Originally Posted by XantosCledwin View Post
okay your proposition is based upon the Turing Test I assume? I have never really studied Turing in any great depth. But based on what I found on the internet in a quick cursory glance.... you are right. He invented the most rudimentary concept of artificial intelligence. However to say he was the founder of the entire genre of Sci Fi Artificial Intelligence just because he thought of the question "Is there an imaginable scenario in which machines can think in a manner which is indistinguishable from humans."

I will concede that he raised question. I will concede that with the partnership of Isaac Asimov they together founded the Genre. But I will not conceive that he all by himself founded the entire genre. And I never ever said that Isaac Asimov created the whole thing by himself. I said he practically created it. There is a distinct difference between saying he did something and he practically did something.
You stated this, exactly:

"The concept of Artificial Intelligence when he actually created the 3 laws was virtually non-existent."

This was untrue. That was really what I was focusing on, and I should've snipped that quote in my first reply, to make it more focused. He certainly did not "practically create" the idea of Artificial Intelligence. In fact, he had nothing to do with the idea in itself. He merely took that idea, and created discussion and thought on the morality of it.

He was NOT included in the Dartmouth Conferences. In fact, if you read some papers on the History of Artificial Intelligence, Asimov's name is not included AT ALL.

While I absolutely love Asimov's work, you should be careful to not falsely attribute things to people because of lack of knowledge. If you'd like to understand the actual history and birth of AI, here are some important names:

Marvin Minsky
Norbert Wiener
Warren Sturgis McCulloch
Walter Pitts
Claude Shannon*
Arthur Samuel*
Allen Newell**
Herbert A. Simon**

* (To a lesser extent)
** (slighly more modern, but based off of early work, not including Asimov)

LordArtemis's Avatar


LordArtemis
05.13.2013 , 01:33 PM | #63
Although it has been done in a few games (I'm thinking of CoH and STO specifically) I'm still a firm believer in player designed content.

This is the ultimate way to add a sandbox element to an active game with a minimum of resources. You rely on players, themselves, to author missions for players to choose to play.

In this game, if something like this was done, there are two ways it could be done IMO.

1) Use current general voice snippets for your character as well as alien dialog to give players the ability to craft missions without extended cutscenes. Instead, the information for the mission would be conveyed using the communicator. This would be the most tricky method naturally.

2) Make it a completely text based system. Though the missions would pale in comparison to the games main quests, it would still allow players to be creative and share their talent for writing with the community.

I think option 2 is the way to go.

XantosCledwin's Avatar


XantosCledwin
05.13.2013 , 01:35 PM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by Kilora View Post
You stated this, exactly:

"The concept of Artificial Intelligence when he actually created the 3 laws was virtually non-existent."
You um... do know what virtually by definition actually means right?

And to be clear, I said Asimov practically created Artificial Intelligence as we understand it in the modern sci fi* culture. While it is absolutely and irrevocably true that he did not and was not the creator of the theory of machine intelligence as it is understood by rationalists and modern scientists... he was in fact the man who inspired all of sci fi to write about artificial intelligence. And he is the primary source of inspiration for all Artificial Intelligences that reject his three laws in some way or form purposefully.
55 Mara / 14 Sniper / 2 Inq
41 Sin / 38 PTech / 31 Sage / 24 Vngrd / 11 Jugg
The Cledwin Legacy / The Shadowlands

Kilora's Avatar


Kilora
05.13.2013 , 01:35 PM | #65
Quote: Originally Posted by XantosCledwin View Post
So you have never heard of people who have been financially ruined by MMO's... or for that matter the people who fell over of exhaustion because of a particular boss fight in Final Fantasy XI that at that point in the games history was literally unwinnable without serious hacks and even with said hacks took over 48 hours of continuous play from a full 18 man raid party (this last fact is in true despite the publicity released by the company afterwards) and to save face said company had to seriously increase the level cap and legally permitted some of those same hacks to remain in the game.
I'm not saying it isn't possible. I'm saying to call it an Addiction because it has the potential, is a mistake. As with most things non-physically-addictive, it isn't INHERENTLY addictive.

People have been financially ruined by purses. Shopping. Eating out.
People have seriously injured themselves from over-exertion in sports.

Most people do not consider alcohol an addiction. Yes, it absolutely has the potential. More-so than a video game.
Most people do not consider collecting things an addiction. Yes, it absolutely has the potential. Look at actual hoarders.

My point is this -- ACTUAL addiction to Video Games happens significantly less often than ACTUAL addiction to Alcohol, or many other "mentally addicting" things.

Kilora's Avatar


Kilora
05.13.2013 , 01:37 PM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by XantosCledwin View Post
You um... do know what virtually by definition actually means right?
Did you bother to read my entire post?

Asimov isn't even considered a pioneer in Artificial Intelligence. He contributed almost nothing to the study.

Instead of attacking me out of ignorance, please inform yourself. I was attempting to educate in a polite manner, but arguing with someone when you admit to your own ignorance of the topic -- that is just asinine.

I apologize if I came off as callous. That was not my original intention.

XantosCledwin's Avatar


XantosCledwin
05.13.2013 , 01:41 PM | #67
Quote: Originally Posted by Kilora View Post
Did you bother to read my entire post?

Asimov isn't even considered a pioneer in Artificial Intelligence. He contributed almost nothing to the study.

Instead of attacking me out of ignorance, please inform yourself. I was attempting to educate in a polite manner, but arguing with someone when you admit to your own ignorance of the topic -- that is just asinine.

I apologize if I came off as callous. That was not my original intention.
read my redacted post.

And for that matter, take longer than two seconds to absorb what I type before replying.
55 Mara / 14 Sniper / 2 Inq
41 Sin / 38 PTech / 31 Sage / 24 Vngrd / 11 Jugg
The Cledwin Legacy / The Shadowlands

Kilora's Avatar


Kilora
05.13.2013 , 01:43 PM | #68
Quote: Originally Posted by LordArtemis View Post
Although it has been done in a few games (I'm thinking of CoH and STO specifically) I'm still a firm believer in player designed content.

This is the ultimate way to add a sandbox element to an active game with a minimum of resources. You rely on players, themselves, to author missions for players to choose to play.
I actually think this is a wonderful idea! I haven't played games such as this -- but the idea of using the consumers to create content or solve problems is such a wonderful thing.

Rather recently, we saw a massive problem in the scientific community solved by gamers.* With hundreds of thousands of people playing a game, and creating content they themselves would enjoy -- you exponentially increase the amount of enjoyment and entertainment that can come from a game. One of the only problems is oversight. Unfortunately the community as a whole cannot be trusted, because there will always be the few with malicious intent. I'll have to look up how STO and CoH did it.

Players creating their own fun may sound to some like laziness or a "shady" business practice -- but I do it anyway. We recently held a scavenger hunt competition in our guild -- and will be doing a "recustomization contest" soon, because of the changes 2.1 is bringing. I can imagine the playerbase as a whole wouldn't be interested -- but we wanted to do it, and we did. Having a way to make it more "official" would've been even better!

*I'll try to find a link to share.

XantosCledwin's Avatar


XantosCledwin
05.13.2013 , 01:46 PM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by LordArtemis View Post
Although it has been done in a few games (I'm thinking of CoH and STO specifically) I'm still a firm believer in player designed content.

This is the ultimate way to add a sandbox element to an active game with a minimum of resources. You rely on players, themselves, to author missions for players to choose to play.

In this game, if something like this was done, there are two ways it could be done IMO.

1) Use current general voice snippets for your character as well as alien dialog to give players the ability to craft missions without extended cutscenes. Instead, the information for the mission would be conveyed using the communicator. This would be the most tricky method naturally.

2) Make it a completely text based system. Though the missions would pale in comparison to the games main quests, it would still allow players to be creative and share their talent for writing with the community.

I think option 2 is the way to go.
I am not 100% certain, but.... I know that Cryptic Studios did plan on sharing the Foundry patent with other companies while it was owned by Atari (I think). But as soon as Cryptic Studio's was acquired by Perfect World Entertainment who is largely owned by a Chinese (and thus Communist) corporation... it is entirely likely that they clamped down on any attempt to share their product with an outside corporation. So do not plan on seeing anything remotely similar to the Foundry in Star Wars the Old Republic anytime soon.
55 Mara / 14 Sniper / 2 Inq
41 Sin / 38 PTech / 31 Sage / 24 Vngrd / 11 Jugg
The Cledwin Legacy / The Shadowlands

CosmicKat's Avatar


CosmicKat
05.13.2013 , 01:48 PM | #70
Quote: Originally Posted by Kilora View Post
You stated this, exactly:

"The concept of Artificial Intelligence when he actually created the 3 laws was virtually non-existent."

This was untrue. That was really what I was focusing on, and I should've snipped that quote in my first reply, to make it more focused. He certainly did not "practically create" the idea of Artificial Intelligence. In fact, he had nothing to do with the idea in itself. He merely took that idea, and created discussion and thought on the morality of it.

He was NOT included in the Dartmouth Conferences. In fact, if you read some papers on the History of Artificial Intelligence, Asimov's name is not included AT ALL.

While I absolutely love Asimov's work, you should be careful to not falsely attribute things to people because of lack of knowledge. If you'd like to understand the actual history and birth of AI, here are some important names:

Marvin Minsky
Norbert Wiener
Warren Sturgis McCulloch
Walter Pitts
Claude Shannon*
Arthur Samuel*
Allen Newell**
Herbert A. Simon**

* (To a lesser extent)
** (slighly more modern, but based off of early work, not including Asimov)
Are you guys actually arguing who invented that thing that has yet to actually be invented?

This is like arguing who invented flight... in 1662.