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Mace Windu vs Sidious


Girdeux's Avatar


Girdeux
04.27.2013 , 06:21 PM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
The two were dueling at an impass, neither of them were able to outdo the other. It wasn't until the window bit, where Sidious was thrown back(thanks to the ledge, and Windu drawing on the fear coming from Anakin who was coming in, thus being able to overpower Palpatine.)



Then moving over to the window bit..



Now here...there is the word FEAR that is brought up, Palpatine then stops his speed and grips the ledge to keep from falling.

]

Ok so we got it covered, they were dueling at an impass. Then to the window, that is where Sidious made his move(the part about gripping on the ledge) and where Mace overpowered him by using the fear that was coming from Anakin.

Now moving on...Sidious could have killed Windu with his lighting..

Now here this makes sense, because even though in the novel he doesn't state the line unlike in the movie, as soon as Anakin cut off Windu's hand...Palpatine goes from..

"I...I'm weak...I can't..."

to
"POWER! UNLIMITED POWER!"

Which suggests, that the lighting wasn't harming Sidious at all. He was just merely faking to show Anakin that Mace was the evil one, and he was helpless to stop him.

If going by the novel, Palpatine just gets back up on his feet(like he wasn't weak) and blasts Windu away.
So was Mace able to beat Palpatine in a duel? Yes, Was it under his own power? No.
except pretty much most of this completely contradicts what lucas has said. Lucas>Novel.

"This sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try and destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber... "

"These close up shots where Palpatine is getting the force lightning reflected back and he’s getting zapped, and the strain of all this exertion is what’s transforming him into the Emperor that we see later in Return of the Jedi..."

Doctoglethorpe's Avatar


Doctoglethorpe
04.27.2013 , 06:42 PM | #62
Made a really really long post, deleted it, just gonna post the quick version.

Sidious could of killed Mace in the initial burst that killed two other jedi. He didn't to play with him and show off for Anakin. BUT he underestimated him and Mace legitimately beat him in a lightsaber duel. Lightsaber being important word there. Sidious was down but not out, and Mace probably could of made the killing blow had he not mistaken Anakin's fear for Sidious and hesitated, not sure how I feel about that so I'll just say probably. (edit: to clarify, if Mace had gone straight for the killing blow in the milliseconds after destroying Sidious' lightsaber, I think it would of won the fight. He didn't though, he held back to spew some rhetoric and give Sidious a chance to surrender, something he expected him to do because the emotions he felt from Anakin were mistaken as Sidious's. That hesitation was the turning point of the fight, the critical error that cost him his life)

That hesitation gave Sidious an opening to use powers he was better at then simple sword play, his sorcery, aka **** like lightning. This is where the book and movie diverge in my view. In the book, they seem equally matched, both sides pushing each other to the brink, and Sidious feigns surrender to trick Anakin to help him win once and for all cause he just can't quite do it himself without risking Mace taking Sidious down with him, while also serving the originally intended goal of making him chose sides. Sidious got what he wanted in the end but he came much closer to defeat then he expected, Mace was his equal in head to head combat, something he didn't expect when he allowed Mace to get a foot in at the start. Perhaps if he did know he would of chosen another Jedi to toy with, like Fisto. However! In the movie, Sidious seems to not be all that phased by the lightning reflection, it seems he could of won there if he really tried, thus the surrender was purely an act to make Anakin chose sides overall and the fight of the moment was already essentially over, Sidious had already won on his own. Sooooo... I prefer the former over the ladder, the interpretation I got from the book. I prefer Sidious having an equal, it makes him a more interesting character rather then some invincible god-tier OP bastard. It also does right by Mace, who I think deserves to come that close to victory since he's the only Jedi that didn't have his head stuck up his ***.


The tl;dr version: Sidious could "sucker punch" anyone, including Mace, and win that way. In a fair fight though, Mace was better at sword play. The true debate is whether or not their force play is equal or in Sidious' favor. The movie makes it seem to be in Sidious' favour quite clearly, but the book is open enough to either being true.

Going by the book, I prefer thinking they were equal and that Anakin made a real choice in who he helped. This post isn't the quick version anymore I guess.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
04.27.2013 , 06:45 PM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by Girdeux View Post
except pretty much most of this completely contradicts what lucas has said. Lucas>Novel.

"This sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try and destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber... "

"These close up shots where Palpatine is getting the force lightning reflected back and he’s getting zapped, and the strain of all this exertion is what’s transforming him into the Emperor that we see later in Return of the Jedi..."
That doesn't contradict anything, because Lucas doesn't say how Mace overpowers Sidious all he says is that he overpowers him. Not to mention, Lucas did make edits to the novel, the novels(movie novels) are as much as G-canon as the movies are. Also you cut out part of the quote...

Quote:
""Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Girdeux's Avatar


Girdeux
04.27.2013 , 07:27 PM | #65
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
That doesn't contradict anything, because Lucas doesn't say how Mace overpowers Sidious all he says is that he overpowers him. Not to mention, Lucas did make edits to the novel, the novels(movie novels) are as much as G-canon as the movies are. Also you cut out part of the quote...
You said Sidious couldve destroyed windu with lightning anytime he wanted which is wrong.

And yes that bit of the quote is irrelevant, since he knew he was losing he was playing up for Anakin.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
04.27.2013 , 07:35 PM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by Girdeux View Post
You said Sidious couldve destroyed windu with lightning anytime he wanted which is wrong.

And yes that bit of the quote is irrelevant, since he knew he was losing he was playing up for Anakin.
No its right, he was bending Mace's blade back to him and Mace had no strength left to fight. Also I didn't say anytime in that bit about the lighting, just put that he could have.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
04.27.2013 , 09:52 PM | #67
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
The two were dueling at an impass, neither of them were able to outdo the other. It wasn't until the window bit, where Sidious was thrown back(thanks to the ledge, and Windu drawing on the fear coming from Anakin who was coming in, thus being able to overpower Palpatine.)

Then moving over to the window bit..

Now here...there is the word FEAR that is brought up, Palpatine then stops his speed and grips the ledge to keep from falling.

Ok so we got it covered, they were dueling at an impass. Then to the window, that is where Sidious made his move(the part about gripping on the ledge) and where Mace overpowered him by using the fear that was coming from Anakin.

Now moving on...Sidious could have killed Windu with his lighting..

Now here this makes sense, because even though in the novel he doesn't state the line unlike in the movie, as soon as Anakin cut off Windu's hand...Palpatine goes from..

"I...I'm weak...I can't..."
to
"POWER! UNLIMITED POWER!"

Which suggests, that the lighting wasn't harming Sidious at all. He was just merely faking to show Anakin that Mace was the evil one, and he was helpless to stop him.

If going by the novel, Palpatine just gets back up on his feet(like he wasn't weak) and blasts Windu away.
Honestly, those excerpts from the novel sound like they were written by a moron. It simply makes no sense for them to form a "superconducting loop" or for there to be no "possibility of fatigue". That's just pointless and meaningless drivel, the author seems to just be blustering.

Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
So was Mace able to beat Palpatine in a duel? Yes, Was it under his own power? No.
What does that even mean, "under his own power"? Of course it was under his own power, HE DID IT.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

ZahirS's Avatar


ZahirS
04.28.2013 , 12:48 AM | #68
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
[COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]
What does that even mean, "under his own power"? Of course it was under his own power, HE DID IT.
It was a Gamble, even if Mace had the upperhand which we see during the fight also the emperor wanted to end like he want it, and by "luck" it worked

I think it was 50/50

Zukoprince's Avatar


Zukoprince
04.30.2013 , 07:39 AM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post

So was Mace able to beat Palpatine in a duel? Yes, Was it under his own power? No.
Mace did beat him under his own power

FuryoftheStars's Avatar


FuryoftheStars
04.30.2013 , 08:22 AM | #70
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
[COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]What does that even mean, "under his own power"? Of course it was under his own power, HE DID IT.
Quote: Originally Posted by Zukoprince View Post
Mace did beat him under his own power
Vaapad worked in part in his being able to take his opponent's power and turn it against them. He also additionally started to get some more power (unknowingly) off from Anikin's fear.
So in a sense, it wasn't under his own power. He just had the ability to harness and use others'.
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
The two were dueling at an impass, neither of them were able to outdo the other. It wasn't until the window bit, where Sidious was thrown back(thanks to the ledge, and Windu drawing on the fear coming from Anakin who was coming in, thus being able to overpower Palpatine.)
Quote:
Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow
...
He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge.
The Shadowlands
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