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Did Vader ever try to clone Padme?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Did Vader ever try to clone Padme?

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
04.27.2013 , 05:12 AM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Vader didn't do it, even after Luke went rampage, he still didn't use his Force techniques or taunt Luke like Dooku once did to distract him.

He didn't want to kill his son, it's quite obvious in the movies.
Vader did taunt Luke like Dooku did to get him to give in to the dark side. Regardless your arguing with a canon source here so I'm afraid their is no room for debate.

Noblis's Avatar


Noblis
04.27.2013 , 05:37 AM | #52
Many many dissertations into the whys and hows of cloning Padme. Many are very interesting.
However, I have a question followed by an observation:
Why would Ani clone Padme? His naughty bits were completely burnt off by lava. Bitter?
Anakin was more obsessed with Padme than in love with her. Does he want to to sit around and chat?
He could just program her personality into a droid. A.I. luv
Hold up ! If we save Han now, there won't be anything for us to do at the beginning
of ROTJ !

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
04.27.2013 , 04:00 PM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Vader did taunt Luke like Dooku did to get him to give in to the dark side. Regardless your arguing with a canon source here so I'm afraid their is no room for debate.
I mean like Dooku's trick in the novel, distract him from the rampage.

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
04.27.2013 , 04:14 PM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
[*]For one you are completely missing the point again. Quit telling me I'm ignoring what happened in the movies because that's irrelevant. It doesn't matter what Luke thinks, or what Padme thinks, all that matters is what Vader thinks. And Vader believes he is beyond redemption and frankly he does not want to be saved. Luke made him see the truth but Luke isn't here right now, is he? Hence, he will never clone Padme with the intention of helping him return to the light, because he doesn't want to and doesn't think its possible, the logic of such an action is just perverse.
Vader thought he's beyond redemption because Padme is dead and he had no choice but to stay in the Dark Side, that's been told quite well in the end of RotS novel, if Padme could come back, that's a different story.

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[*]Padme doesn't what to join Vader and rule the galaxy - that is the path she cannot follow. So she would not want to get married to him and do just that which would just be weird because he's only half human and can't even touch her. Vader knows this, he knows that as Vader they can never ever be together. Again, he believes Anakin Skywalker is dead and Padme fell in love with Anakin Skywalker not Vader. Regardless of what Padme truly believes, Vader does not believe Padme can ever love him, ever.
No, they were already married , in AotC. So it's not a question.

If Padme told him differently and show him love, he would accept it, just like Luke did. Padme didn't want to rule the galaxy, but she wants to save Vader.

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[*]Vader is still set on ruling the galaxy and overthrowing the Emperor. He is not interested in settling down on Alderaan and starting up a family. He knows therefore that a Padme clone would never join him, as she has already expressed a desire not to do so.
He wants to do it with Padme, as a politician, Padme could work the way around it, probably even use Vader's power in the Empire to help the rebels.


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[*]Vader doesn't want to put Padme through the pain of seeing the monster he has become. He is not entirely selfish and stupid he will not believe for a second that Padme could ever love the monster he has become even if that is not true, he does not believe it to be true. Padme's thoughts on the matter are irrelevant.[/LIST]
Nowhere has this been stated. He wanted to get Padme back clearly in the end of EP III. The novel also never stated he was afraid of that, he wants Padme back, he wants to have her, simple, he stated quite a few times to Obi Wan in the novel.

He just has to listen to Padme's reaction, that's all.


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[LIST][*]Clone Padme does not equal real Padme. They are similar, but not the same. And when its someone you love, not just a weapon and a tool, it has to be the same person. Especially considering that like it or not, the real Padme is still dead, he still killed her. Do you really think if he clones her he'll just forget about the fact that he murdered his wife and think that's all OK now? Nope, he'll still feel regret and remorse because his wife is still dead, he still killed her. Clone Padme will just keep reminding him of that.
They are similar enough to let, if she has the memory and forgive Vader, that would change his view.

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[*]Vader's 'love' may be stronger than the dark side, but he doesn't believe or recognise that. The only emotions he is aware of our anger, sadness, remorse and regret. Clone Padme cannot free him from any of those emotions, only make them stronger. Cause she ain't Padme.
He will understand if Padme show him the opinion. Her opinion is exactly Padme's since they have the same persona and memory.

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[*]Yes Padme thought their was still good in him, but Vader wasn't there to here that. All he heard is Padme turning against him, also take into account his mind was clouded by the dark side at that point an he likely remembered events differently.
Padme will have chance to tell him if he clones her, and he does know he loves Padme and will always love her even in the end of RotS.

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[*]Padme would not join Vader to do evil. There we go then, debate over. Because that's what Vader wants, and he knows he can't have it. 1. Because Padme doesn't want it 2. Because he was no way to bring the real Padme back.
No, but that does not mean she would leave Vader, she never said it and to help the rebel, it would be the best for her to stay with Vader. Again she's a politician.

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[*]Vader no doubt hates his life, but he realizes he cannot change it. I'm sure if Vader was given the opportunity to do things differently he would. Unfortunately he doesn't have the opportunity and has resigned himself to the dark side forever. I'm sure if he could change back the clock and not strangle Padme he would, but he can't do that. Not even cloning her will bring back the real Padme.
He will realize it once Padme is with him, just like he did in the end of RotJ, is it too late for him? No.

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[*]Vader never cloned himself to train Starkiller, I'm afraid you made that up. He clearly cannot do this else he would have done so long ago.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Vader_%28clone%29

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[*]Palpatine promised to help save Padme, but only to turn him to the dark side, he did not really care. Post-Mustafar Sidious used Padme to control him and enslave him, hence why he told him he was dead, if Padme was resurrected and Sidious found out, he would kill her. Why? Because like you say there is a chance Padme would attempt to turn him to the light or Vader might regain his confidence and attempt to overthrow Palpatine. Vader doesn't know this, but he does know Sidious is an evil megalomaniac. And if Sidious killed Padme, Vader would be powerless to stop him.
That's totally not the case, if Sidious killed Padme, Vader would raise all the hate and anger he has to annihilate Palpatine because he's the Chosen One, even after he was crippled he still could have the potential to heal his body if he gave him to the Dark Side completely, kill Padme would just give him the reason to do it.

XantosCledwin's Avatar


XantosCledwin
04.28.2013 , 02:22 AM | #55
Quote: Originally Posted by Uvirith View Post
for the roughly 6,892,012,433 other people on the planet who don't speak German could you please provide a link to a wiki page for this character that is in English?
55 Mara / 14 Sniper / 2 Inq
41 Sin / 38 PTech / 31 Sage / 24 Vngrd / 11 Jugg
The Cledwin Legacy / The Shadowlands

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
04.28.2013 , 03:23 AM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Vader thought he's beyond redemption because Padme is dead and he had no choice but to stay in the Dark Side, that's been told quite well in the end of RotS novel, if Padme could come back, that's a different story.
Exactly. If Padme came back it would be a different story. But Padme isn't here so right now we're in the Vader-hates-himself-for-killing-his-wife-and-can-never-do-anything-to-bring-he-back-so-may-as-well-resign-himself-to-the-dark-side-forever story. That one doesn't have a happy ending... (well, sort of.)
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Nowhere has this been stated. He wanted to get Padme back clearly in the end of EP III. The novel also never stated he was afraid of that, he wants Padme back, he wants to have her, simple, he stated quite a few times to Obi Wan in the novel.

He just has to listen to Padme's reaction, that's all.
That doesn't matter. This is all speculation anyway we don't need canon facts to tell us if Vader wanted Padme to witness the monster he had become or not, we have logic for that. Nonetheless sometime after Padme's death her spirit did visit Vader and it wasn't pretty. A few excerpts from Wookieepedia:

In Vader's vision of his dead wife, Padmé Amidala was heartbroken to see what her once heroic Jedi husband had been reduced to—a broken shadow of the man he once was...

...Amidala was not moved by Vader's feelings of self-pity and referred to him by his birth name. In that moment, Darth Vader angrily rejected his former name and regarded it as something that no longer possessed any meaning for him. He tried to rationalize his frustrations at himself by declaring that Anakin Skywalker died with his wife. But in rejecting who he once was, Vader caused Amidala to turn away since she had come for Anakin, not Vader...

...As Vader descended deeper into the depths of the Cathedral, he encountered another vision of Amidala, whose beauty was overtaken by the decaying effects of death. She forced Vader to stop lying to himself and finally confront the truth—Amidala did not just "die," she was murdered in cold blood by her own husband. Overwhelmed by the indescribable pain and sorrow that filled his entire being, Darth Vader fell to his knees with tears of remorse in his eyes. He confessed to everything, from killing his wife to destroying his life as Anakin Skywalker; he confessed his belief that Amidala's unborn child died as a result of his actions as well. Ultimately, what he hated most of all was himself for all of the evil that he committed as Darth Vader. Amidala forgave her husband, whom she referred to by his Sith title, causing Vader to shed a final tear for all that he had lost.


Vader then proceeded to collapse the building on himself, leaving his fate to the Force. After being buried alive for three days he survived and was rescued by Darth Sidious, proving it himself that the dark side and service to his Master was his destiny. Not Padme, who had proven to him that he had killed his wife, and that she only loved Anakin, not the monster he had become. Its certainly not an encounter that would encourage him to clone her. Also note Anakin believes he killed his unborn child, which would only make cloning Padme all the more painful because he knows that both Padme and his child are dead.

I cannot stress this enough, a clone is not Padme no matter what you think. Cloning Padme is just sick and peverse, it will not change anything. The real Padme will still be decaying in the ground (with his child as he believes) and he still would have destroyed his life as Anakin Skywalker. Padme may forgive him for what he's done but she's already done that, there is nothing more for them to do. Padme loved Anakin and Anakin is dead, their relationship is at an end. (Despite what Padme says before dying, it would seem that she no longer has any intention of loving Vader else she would have said as much and tried to do all the things you suggest she would have done.)

The rest of your points are presupposing that Vader would clone Padme and are therefore irrelevant. Just as it is irrelevant if I would like the taste of a chocolate bar when I refuse to eat it.

Oh and for the record, Vader can't even touch Sidious. In fact when Sidious tells him Padme is dead he crushes everything in the room, including attempting to crush Sidious but he cannot touch him. I believe this is explained quite clearly in the RotS novel. Perhaps Wolf can provide a quote? Either way, Sidious will want Padme dead and could instead disguise it as assassination by another party, making Vader all the more dedicated to the Emperor. Cloning Padme would put her in immense danger, not just from the Emperor, but from all his other enemies, and himself.

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
04.28.2013 , 11:27 AM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Exactly. If Padme came back it would be a different story. But Padme isn't here so right now we're in the Vader-hates-himself-for-killing-his-wife-and-can-never-do-anything-to-bring-he-back-so-may-as-well-resign-himself-to-the-dark-side-forever story. That one doesn't have a happy ending... (well, sort of.)
That's why he has the motive to clone her.


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That doesn't matter. This is all speculation anyway we don't need canon facts to tell us if Vader wanted Padme to witness the monster he had become or not, we have logic for that. Nonetheless sometime after Padme's death her spirit did visit Vader and it wasn't pretty. A few excerpts from Wookieepedia:
Padme's reason is G Canon, and in RotS novel Vader made clear he wanted Padme back, he made it clear many times.

Do not forget, Anakin already became Vader after he accepted Palpatine as his master and joined the Sith, not after he became a cyborg. So Padme's view is quite clear

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I cannot stress this enough, a clone is not Padme no matter what you think. Cloning Padme is just sick and peverse, it will not change anything. The real Padme will still be decaying in the ground (with his child as he believes) and he still would have destroyed his life as Anakin Skywalker. Padme may forgive him for what he's done but she's already done that, there is nothing more for them to do. Padme loved Anakin and Anakin is dead, their relationship is at an end. (Despite what Padme says before dying, it would seem that she no longer has any intention of loving Vader else she would have said as much and tried to do all the things you suggest she would have done.)
She has the same persona, memory and looks, that's quite a lot for Vader.

Padme would bring Anakin back rather than just leave him, it's been made clear in the movie, the Anakin she talked with is already Darth Vader, overall, Anakin and Vader are not different people, it was the darkness in Anakin caused his downfall, and the light in his heart redeemed himself.

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Oh and for the record, Vader can't even touch Sidious. In fact when Sidious tells him Padme is dead he crushes everything in the room, including attempting to crush Sidious but he cannot touch him. I believe this is explained quite clearly in the RotS novel. Perhaps Wolf can provide a quote? Either way, Sidious will want Padme dead and could instead disguise it as assassination by another party, making Vader all the more dedicated to the Emperor. Cloning Padme would put her in immense danger, not just from the Emperor, but from all his other enemies, and himself.
That's when he just became the cyborg, later he became much more powerful, far surpassed his RotS self on Force Power.

Lucas made clear he's around 80% of the Emperor's power, if he goes rampage it's obvious he could take down Sidious. No, Sidious couldn't sense Padme like he sensed Star Killer, he couldn't even sense the twins before they revealed themselves.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
04.28.2013 , 11:52 AM | #58
I'm still really confused as to how you think Vader thinks this will pan out. So, he clones Padme, she wakes up. And he's like, Padme its me! And she's like and probably doesn't even believe its Vader (she has no reason to) so after she's got over her initial shock and the fact she is a clone (presupposing that the cloning process will actually work which, for the record, it probably will not) He gives his whole, "come rule the galaxy with me speech" and she's like this. Oh. Because nobody saw that coming! What does Vader hope to achieve? A sex toy?
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
That's why he has the motive to clone her.
Want to elaborate on how he'll clone Padme when in the mentality that there is nothing he can do to bring her back and restore things to the way they were, because in his opinion Anakin is dead?
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Padme's reason is G Canon, and in RotS novel Vader made clear he wanted Padme back, he made it clear many times.

Do not forget, Anakin already became Vader after he accepted Palpatine as his master and joined the Sith, not after he became a cyborg. So Padme's view is quite clear
I'm afraid this is irrelevant. Given that the only contact Anakin has had with Padme is Vader is when she tells him she can't join him on his path to the dark side, and when she abadons him in the vision. Given that Vader was not present when Vader died, we simply cannot consider it, at all.
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She has the same persona, memory and looks, that's quite a lot for Vader.

Padme would bring Anakin back rather than just leave him, it's been made clear in the movie, the Anakin she talked with is already Darth Vader, overall, Anakin and Vader are not different people, it was the darkness in Anakin caused his downfall, and the light in his heart redeemed himself.
Again irrelevant as this is Padme's view not Vader's... Vader believes Anakin is dead: G-Canon.
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That's when he just became the cyborg, later he became much more powerful, far surpassed his RotS self on Force Power.

Lucas made clear he's around 80% of the Emperor's power, if he goes rampage it's obvious he could take down Sidious. No, Sidious couldn't sense Padme like he sensed Star Killer, he couldn't even sense the twins before they revealed themselves.
Reallly? Sidious' lightning would fry Vader's suit instantly and render him incapacitated. Or are you forgetting what happened at the end of RoTJ? The battle would go something like this. Palpatine may not be able to sense Padme, but once he senses a change of emotions in Vader he can easily read his mind and discover the truth. He has done this before from light years away.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
04.28.2013 , 12:05 PM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
COLOR=#CC9E42]Reallly? Sidious' lightning would fry Vader's suit instantly and render him incapacitated. Or are you forgetting what happened at the end of RoTJ? The battle would go something like this. Palpatine may not be able to sense Padme, but once he senses a change of emotions in Vader he can easily read his mind and discover the truth. He has done this before from light years away.
I don't want to intrude on this discussion, but I would like to point something out real fast. Remember Return of the Jedi. Vader takes Sidious' lightning (which was amped up when Vader picked him up) for several seconds and throws him down the shaft. Then he makes his way down to the hangar from the observation chamber on a moon sized battlestation.

And this was after Vader had given up the Dark Side. So Sidious' lightning won't instantly fry Vader's suit and incapacitate him. A constant stream would eventually do it, but not instantly.

Also remember that Sidious' lightning killed Windu in an incredibly short time. So Vader has incredible resistance to Force lightning. (This is a pre-emptive strike for Vader's battle in The BattleZone )

Carry on.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

YoshiRaphElan's Avatar


YoshiRaphElan
04.28.2013 , 12:12 PM | #60
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Wait? What? When did this happen? Last time I checked Palpatine created those clones to inhabit his spirit, and did so. Retcon that and you may as well do away with it all together... as it no longer makes canonical sense.

EDIT: Just checked again, it would seem that no such retcon has happened, not sure where you heard this...
Sorry, thought I'd heard that somewhere, my bad. What I remember is, Mara said she never bought to the fact that it was actually the Emperor, and in her opinion they were just wacko clones.