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I want a 30 second Force speed with no cooldown.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
I want a 30 second Force speed with no cooldown.

Zorash's Avatar


Zorash
04.19.2013 , 04:39 PM | #171
Quote: Originally Posted by Omophorus View Post
An individual with Force Speed can make it to the opposing team's natural in time to interrupt a cap with or without Transcendence in play for either team. It is not perfectly reliable, and if it fails the game is likely lost. If the team has neither Force Speed nor Transcendence, they're almost certainly boned. It is not a well-balanced scenario, but counters do exist other than "use Transcendence" even if they are not reliable.

If one team has trollroll and the other does not, even Force Speed is insufficient. I have not seen even 80% Transcendence be sufficient (due to LOS issues), but I grant that it probably could be possible in combination with Force Speed or with absolutely perfect timing and placement of an instant ground-target AoE (e.g. Death Field).

The critical difference for Huttball is that even with Transcendence, both teams reach mid in quick enough succession that even the slower team is present in force in time to react to the initial ball grab. A well-coordinated effort can force a turnover, which is not possible with a trollroll opening. I do not mean to say that Transcendence doesn't provide a tremendous advantage, but the difference between "too late but able to do something useful" and simply "too late to do anything" are immense and measured in a second or two. Seconds which the current state of trollroll provide.

I will absolutely, unabashedly, and unreservedly grant that Transcendance, especially with the talent buffing it to 80% movement speed, is an ability that is unfairly strong. I don't think I've said otherwise. It is not, for all intents and purposes, un-counterable, which is the only difference between it and trollroll, though an incredibly noteworthy difference. The difference between "hard to counter but possible" and "virtually impossible to counter" is small but relevant.

For the second part of your post, it simply isn't the case anymore that Operative is a drastically sub-par DPS. It is effective, even in Huttball of pressuring healers to control momentum in the middle. It can move into position to be a target for Intercede. Or, to take a different tack, the Operative who performed the initial ball capture could respec to heals if the team feels that they aren't worthwhile in a DPS role. For the first 15-20 seconds of a Huttball game, it is not disadvantageous to be down a healer, and you could be spec-swapped and in position to be helpful before the carrier reaches the goal line. Maybe not what you want to hear, but certainly one entirely valid answer to the idea of bringing a "dead weight" DPS.
Yes, transcendence is counterable, but it's such a considerable advantage everyone brings one.

People didn't seem to be as opposed to marauders/sentinels having a group speed boost as operatives/scoundrels having a speed boost, which is why I am so dumbfounded.

Yes scamper is faster then trans, but why shouldn't a single person speed boost be faster. Especially, considering the lack of utility the class brings.

You also state that 2/5 wzs scoundrels/operatives are superior because of scamper, but what about the 3 other wzs. You put yourself at an advantage for 2 wzs, but make yourself inferior to the other 3.

Also, the devs have stated they know the issue with civil war in rwz taking 20m with each team having a side node and everyone fighting for the mid is an issue, is hopefully they fix that. That will make everyone enjoy civil war more in rwz and make the scamper ability less of an impact.

What I meant by sub-bar dps is not the dps itself but the class in general. The class brings burst dps and stealth, that's it, outside of scamper. An assassin does both of those roles better while having better cc, such as a knockback that can change the fight in huttball. It's why the class in general is dead weight in terms of it's role as a DPSer.

Using what you said, a lot of rwzs bring operative healers, so wouldn't huttball be less game-breaking then since both teams will have one to counter it.

Omophorus's Avatar


Omophorus
04.19.2013 , 04:47 PM | #172
Quote: Originally Posted by Coldin View Post
It's pretty aggravating that you call it "trollroll". Maybe I should start calling Harpoon "trollgrapple". Or Force Shroud, "trollshield".

Force Speed IS sufficient to stop a cap. If you're finding it's not, then likely there are other factors occurring to stop you from reaching the scoundrel in time.
It rhymes, and I have tremendous fun exploiting it on my Operative, so I'm going to continue using it. I am a troll in game and I don't pretend otherwise.

Force Speed is fast enough to reach the other team's node right after the cap completes if the roller did it right (e.g. ledge launch for extra distance, optimal path to node, no delayed rolls), which is fast enough in unranked games to nuke a recovering Op and take the node if no interceptor is sent. In a ranked game, I wouldn't put money on it.
Srs'bsns, GM of <Proper Villains> of The Ebon Hawk
5/5 Nightmare Power DF & DP
"This is why we don't bring Assassin tanks"

Campaigner's Avatar


Campaigner
04.19.2013 , 04:48 PM | #173
Quote: Originally Posted by Xerain View Post
Yeah last night I was in a huttball and we had slow pred (50%) and I dropped down from top mid and an Op had already grabbed the ball, *** is that? By the time I was in range to leap to him he threw it to the jugg on their team and vanished right after the leap. So... Yeah not op'ed guys :|.
Hahaha
OldTraunus (Formerly Traunus from SoEK)
Prophecy of the Five
<Old Republic War>

Campaigner's Avatar


Campaigner
04.19.2013 , 04:50 PM | #174
God forbid anyone besides the jedi classes have utility.

Really though, the jedi classes are so spoiled about being the center of attention in everything that they QQ as soon as anyone can do something they cannot.
OldTraunus (Formerly Traunus from SoEK)
Prophecy of the Five
<Old Republic War>

Galipolie's Avatar


Galipolie
04.19.2013 , 05:16 PM | #175
Don't even discuss, it's too imba. Nerf it *********** bioware noobs!

Kaerwolf's Avatar


Kaerwolf
04.19.2013 , 05:22 PM | #176
Quote: Originally Posted by Zorash View Post
Really so the issue is that they can get to a node quicker? Before OP/soundrels had the roll marauders/sents had transcendence, guess what tell me a single class that can beat a transcendence marauder/sentinel to a node? NONE, the only one who can beat them is another person with trans, why do you think rated teams had a trans on every team.

People act like the OP/scoundrel speed buff is so OP in huttball. Guess what before the roll scoundrels were one of the worst classes in huttball, they didn't have a speed burst, leap, knockback etc. Scoundrels/Ops had one of the worst mobility as a melee class, they finally have some now.
Councilor/Inquisitor can get there faster, with Transendance boost from said mara/sent and not only that, they do it it invisible too. Oh wait, that was BEFORE 2.0. Now they also got a teleport to add to that.

Zunayson's Avatar


Zunayson
04.19.2013 , 05:51 PM | #177
Quote: Originally Posted by Omophorus View Post
You misinterpreted.

You could win a competitive ranked game on Voidstar, Novare Coast, or Ancient Hypergate without an Op/Scoundrel on your team.

You have virtually no chance of winning Huttball or Civil War because the only effective counter-tactic is the tactic itself.

2 out of 5 possible WZ maps are essentially forfeits, and if all 5 WZ maps show up with an equal average frequency, you lose 40% of games against an otherwise evenly-matched team before the match even starts. Not even pre-2.0 Sith Warriors were that dominant in ranked play.
No, you dont need the tactic itself to counter them. L2snare.

I'll say it again. L2snare. L2Snare. L2snare L2snare


Now, something you CANNOT counter is CC breaker, because it breaks the CC. Sniper's roll, because it breaks immobilize, will dodge/resist all attacks, moves forward, gives insane boni, etc. Electronet, because it directly overrides speed boosts, even if speed boosts say they override snares. These aforementioned moves have low (or no) resource cost and have no counters and therefore high CDs.

Low CD moves have EASY COUNTERS.
Quote: Originally Posted by Uber_the_Goober View Post
Bioware couldn't balance a sheet of plywood if it were laying [sic] on the ground.
Quote: Originally Posted by Aragost View Post
Make sure you take 3/3 in the "knowing how to play" box

Omophorus's Avatar


Omophorus
04.19.2013 , 07:17 PM | #178
Quote: Originally Posted by Zunayson View Post
No, you dont need the tactic itself to counter them. L2snare.

I'll say it again. L2snare. L2Snare. L2snare L2snare


Now, something you CANNOT counter is CC breaker, because it breaks the CC. Sniper's roll, because it breaks immobilize, will dodge/resist all attacks, moves forward, gives insane boni, etc. Electronet, because it directly overrides speed boosts, even if speed boosts say they override snares. These aforementioned moves have low (or no) resource cost and have no counters and therefore high CDs.

Low CD moves have EASY COUNTERS.
How does a snare prevent someone from traveling from their spawn point to their natural node faster than it is possible to intercept them if they know what they're doing and you don't have every moment speed buff under the sun, plus no interruptions on your way, plus the devil's own luck?

In case the last, oh, I don't know, EVERY SINGLE PAGE wasn't abundantly clear, the far-and-away most dangerous thing about the trollroll is that at the very beginning of certain WZs, it can virtually guarantee a win in a highly competitive ranked game if the same tactic isn't used by both teams. Otherwise yes, it can be dealt with, but such a glaring flaw is not permissible.
Srs'bsns, GM of <Proper Villains> of The Ebon Hawk
5/5 Nightmare Power DF & DP
"This is why we don't bring Assassin tanks"

RougeBeaver's Avatar


RougeBeaver
04.19.2013 , 07:41 PM | #179
Quote: Originally Posted by Omophorus View Post
How does a snare prevent someone from traveling from their spawn point to their natural node faster than it is possible to intercept them if they know what they're doing and you don't have every moment speed buff under the sun, plus no interruptions on your way, plus the devil's own luck?

In case the last, oh, I don't know, EVERY SINGLE PAGE wasn't abundantly clear, the far-and-away most dangerous thing about the trollroll is that at the very beginning of certain WZs, it can virtually guarantee a win in a highly competitive ranked game if the same tactic isn't used by both teams. Otherwise yes, it can be dealt with, but such a glaring flaw is not permissible.
Because the range of Scamper is halved when the Scoundrel/Op is snared. Surely you knew that much, right?

Assassins could dash through fire and not die, and now they can even teleport right back to mid at no force cost what so ever.

Juggernauts could leap, leap, leap, both to allies and enemies, making them amazing scoring machines.

Operative gets a roll that eats up all our energy if used too much, and are so much squishier than Juggs and Assassins its not even funny. And this is what people are QQing about? Give me a break, lol.
The only true profit in this galaxy is freedom.

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
04.19.2013 , 07:48 PM | #180
Quote: Originally Posted by Campaigner View Post
God forbid anyone besides the jedi classes have utility.

Really though, the jedi classes are so spoiled about being the center of attention in everything that they QQ as soon as anyone can do something they cannot.
stealth is a pretty significant utility. just sayin. (I play the trooper classes most often)
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