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Kaggath Tournament Finals - Traya vs G0-T0

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Tournament Finals - Traya vs G0-T0

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.17.2013 , 02:34 PM | #581
Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
You didn't read a word I said did you...
  1. The HK Units are entering the ship through the bridge by blasting a hole in the transparisteel windows with high explosives.
  2. The HK units are sending a coordinated strike command via a comm burst to make sure that all their attacks occur at the same time (kinda hard to respond to a distress signal when it hasn't been given yet). They are not attacking just when they first get into position, they are waiting until all units are in position to launch the strike...
  3. Breath masks will not work in hard vacuum, you need full spacesuits otherwise the Sith is going to explode and die horribly in space. It isn't just the lack of air that will kill one, it is the pressure difference.
  4. The assualt droids (which I will admit is a new item you brought up), can probably be completely taken off line from the bridge (or reprogrammed from the bridge).
  5. I don't think stealth will be particularly effective, main reason is that anyone that survives would have to be in a full space suit, which the space suits of that era were not exactly built with either stealth or combat in mind.
  6. Last I checked the hyperspace controls and navi-computer are both on the bridge, after seizing the bridge and venting the rest of the ship, the captured ships can be taken to some other location to be cleared at G0-T0's leisure
  7. Why would the interdictors be by themselves (all they affect is hyperdrive operation so I fail to see what they will accomplish when the hijacking is occurring in normal space), unless you are expecting this kind of a hijacking, having the interdictors not being protected by the fleet is extremely foolish.
I did and took everything into account.

  1. Yup, and a few seconds after they'll automatically seal up. Those close will get sucked out, but those further away and the Sith will not, and the HK's have to kill them to access the bridge.
  2. I meant reinforcements from inside the ship, those directly outside the bridge will hear and then see the commotion and alert everyone that the bridge is under attack.
  3. That is true, however droids do.
  4. Probably, but they have to get control of the bridge first.
  5. Also true.
  6. True, but that makes no difference. Eventually they are going to go to Malachor V, yet Traya will then be even more prepared.
  7. I don't see your point. What do they need protection from? G0-T0's vast navy? All Traya needs is a force large enough to pull some freighters out of hyperspace and blast them out the sky, two is more than enough for this purpose. One would suffice. There purpose is to prevent ships from reaching Malachor V.

Concerning reaction time. Yes every ship is being attacked at the same time. But unless the HK's kill them immediately they have enough time to telepathically warn Traya, call for reinforcements from the rest of the ship etc. etc. They will not die instantly. And when I said 'as for your other points' I was reffering to points you made outside the 'capture ship' scenario. Rakatan tech may also throw a spanner in the works when attempting to hack the ship if its locked down.

Concerning Jekk'Jekk Tarr, OK, so everyone would die except the Gand. Who will then be slaughtered by the the remaining Sith and Sith assassins, or be killed beforehand in plasma explosions. And like I already said, the poisons don't affect skin, they are only deadly when you breath them in, hence why Meetra only used breath control to defend against them. A breath mask would work. I even know the gases circulating about that place, cynagonen and ammonia, look them up they don't affect the skin.

And finally, I really don't think G0-T0 is going to be able to get hundreds of smugglers and bounty hunters on board simply because the Sith are laying waste to Exchange bases. Most likely they will be scared away by the prospect of fighting an invisible opponent that wields the force that even the Exchange can't stand up to.

P.S. Some vessels had force fields on the windows see TFU, the Interdictor may not have force fields but it will have some sort of seal up device, all ships did.

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
03.17.2013 , 02:50 PM | #582
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I did and took everything into account.

  1. Yup, and a few seconds after they'll automatically seal up. Those close will get sucked out, but those further away and the Sith will not, and the HK's have to kill them to access the bridge.
  2. I meant reinforcements from inside the ship, those directly outside the bridge will hear and then see the commotion and alert everyone that the bridge is under attack.
  3. That is true, however droids do.
  4. Probably, but they have to get control of the bridge first.
  5. Also true.
  6. True, but that makes no difference. Eventually they are going to go to Malachor V, yet Traya will then be even more prepared.
  7. I don't see your point. What do they need protection from? G0-T0's vast navy? All Traya needs is a force large enough to pull some freighters out of hyperspace and blast them out the sky, two is more than enough for this purpose. One would suffice. There purpose is to prevent ships from reaching Malachor V.

Concerning reaction time. Yes every ship is being attacked at the same time. But unless the HK's kill them immediately they have enough time to telepathically warn Traya, call for reinforcements from the rest of the ship etc. etc. They will not die instantly. And when I said 'as for your other points' I was reffering to points you made outside the 'capture ship' scenario. Rakatan tech may also throw a spanner in the works when attempting to hack the ship if its locked down.

Concerning Jekk'Jekk Tarr, OK, so everyone would die except the Gand. Who will then be slaughtered by the the remaining Sith and Sith assassins, or be killed beforehand in plasma explosions. And like I already said, the poisons don't affect skin, they are only deadly when you breath them in, hence why Meetra only used breath control to defend against them. A breath mask would work. I even know the gases circulating about that place, cynagonen and ammonia, look them up they don't affect the skin.

And finally, I really don't think G0-T0 is going to be able to get hundreds of smugglers and bounty hunters on board simply because the Sith are laying waste to Exchange bases. Most likely they will be scared away by the prospect of fighting an invisible opponent that wields the force that even the Exchange can't stand up to.

P.S. Some vessels had force fields on the windows see TFU, the Interdictor may not have force fields but it will have some sort of seal up device, all ships did.
If you look at how big the window is that Nihilus was looking out of, I'm not sure that anyone on the bridge would survive...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpO__IJra4o

As for others getting into the bridge, it appears there is more than one window that can be broken to throw people into space.

Btw, worst case, the HK units can put the ships on collision courses and destroy Traya's entire fleet.

Concerning the Jekk'Jekk Tarr
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DM6bErJR0A

Atton's comments seem to indicate that the gas in the Jekk Jekk works on tactile contact..

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.17.2013 , 02:56 PM | #583
Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
If you look at how big the window is that Nihilus was looking out of, I'm not sure that anyone on the bridge would survive...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpO__IJra4o

As for others getting into the bridge, it appears there is more than one window that can be broken to throw people into space.
That's a Centurion-class cruiser. The windows of an Interdictor are considerable smaller. See here. And even if everyone did get pulled out, the alarms/commotion would alert others to a breach.

I fail to understand your next point, for the record the Interdictor is actually pretty windowless at least around the bridge area. And of course, those windows will seal up soon after they are broken.

EDIT: Just a thought I had concerning the Bao-Dur scenario: after discovering the presence of the HK factory either from the droids or simply from the Czerka/Exchange presence their, Traya will find Bao-Dur and have him interrogated Sith style, to which he will likely break and spill. Upon learning of his importance Traya may 'allow' him to be recaptured when G0-T0 tries to take the facility and Bao-Dur back, his two most valuable assets. Of course she'll be tracking him and he'll go straight to G0-T0's yacht if the Exchange bases on the ground have been compromised.

Canino's Avatar


Canino
03.17.2013 , 03:30 PM | #584
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
That's a Centurion-class cruiser. The windows of an Interdictor are considerable smaller. See here. And even if everyone did get pulled out, the alarms/commotion would alert others to a breach.

I fail to understand your next point, for the record the Interdictor is actually pretty windowless at least around the bridge area. And of course, those windows will seal up soon after they are broken.

EDIT: Just a thought I had concerning the Bao-Dur scenario: after discovering the presence of the HK factory either from the droids or simply from the Czerka/Exchange presence their, Traya will find Bao-Dur and have him interrogated Sith style, to which he will likely break and spill. Upon learning of his importance Traya may 'allow' him to be recaptured when G0-T0 tries to take the facility and Bao-Dur back, his two most valuable assets. Of course she'll be tracking him and he'll go straight to G0-T0's yacht if the Exchange bases on the ground have been compromised.
Yet the position of the windows are right near ALL personal on the bridge. Quite possible with the right timing and positioning.

With Bao-Dur, how will Traya learn of the factory before the invasion of Malachor? That's is the only time that HK's will be really attacking- well the ships and the protocol droids but still. I also beg to differ that the factory will fall. With no breath control(yes, no? whats the verdict?) and many, many defenses I don't see the factory falling. Especially if G0-T0 gets the fleet. Orbital bombardment anyone? The factory has survived it before. Those who besiege it though will not be so lucky.
STATEMENT: I'm just a simple assassin...I mean bodyguard, master. You have nothing to fear.
---------

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.17.2013 , 03:41 PM | #585
Quote: Originally Posted by Canino View Post
Yet the position of the windows are right near ALL personal on the bridge. Quite possible with the right timing and positioning.
Wait, wait wait. Big problem I just realised with this plan. If the droids explode the windows, all the air suddenly rushes out, so fast and so powerfully that everyone inside gets sucked out. So how on earth are the HK's going to get in when air is blowing them in the opposite direction and bodies are flying into their faces? Sure, wait until all the air gets out, but no because once that happens the windows seal. Leaving the droids awkwardly floating off into the distance like Team Rocket, then getting blasted apart by fighters.
Quote:
With Bao-Dur, how will Traya learn of the factory before the invasion of Malachor? That's is the only time that HK's will be really attacking- well the ships and the protocol droids but still. I also beg to differ that the factory will fall. With no breath control(yes, no? whats the verdict?) and many, many defenses I don't see the factory falling. Especially if G0-T0 gets the fleet. Orbital bombardment anyone? The factory has survived it before. Those who besiege it though will not be so lucky.
This would be after Malachor, and under the assumption the attack would fail. Just another one of the possibilities. I think the factory would fall, yes it would take time but Traya has an advantage that G0-T0 does not, numbers. She can just keep pumping Sith, assassins, droids and troopers into the place until she wins. HK droids are tough, but how long can they last against lightsabers, lightning, ion weapons, grenades etc? And concerning breath control, only Traya. But those gas vents can simply be shot at/avoided.

Canino's Avatar


Canino
03.17.2013 , 04:20 PM | #586
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Wait, wait wait. Big problem I just realised with this plan. If the droids explode the windows, all the air suddenly rushes out, so fast and so powerfully that everyone inside gets sucked out. So how on earth are the HK's going to get in when air is blowing them in the opposite direction and bodies are flying into their faces? Sure, wait until all the air gets out, but no because once that happens the windows seal. Leaving the droids awkwardly floating off into the distance like Team Rocket, then getting blasted apart by fighters.This would be after Malachor, and under the assumption the attack would fail. Just another one of the possibilities. I think the factory would fall, yes it would take time but Traya has an advantage that G0-T0 does not, numbers. She can just keep pumping Sith, assassins, droids and troopers into the place until she wins. HK droids are tough, but how long can they last against lightsabers, lightning, ion weapons, grenades etc? And concerning breath control, only Traya. But those gas vents can simply be shot at/avoided.
The HK's could simply push the bodies away and move through them with the magnetic boots. Then stand on the ceiling until the shields go down. Or cancel the shields from even coming back online with the console.

With the invasion the HK's are programmed to kill Jedi, and the defenses of the factory are programmed to also kill Jedi. The Sith would be slaughtered. the HK's could also use flamethrowers and carbonite attacks to kill the Sith. Or they could be suicide bombers and run with bombs about to go. Droids can be programmed to do anything.

EDIT: with the factory, new droids are constantly being produced. The numbers argument is sort of, not completely, but sort of invalid.
STATEMENT: I'm just a simple assassin...I mean bodyguard, master. You have nothing to fear.
---------

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
03.17.2013 , 04:50 PM | #587
Quote: Originally Posted by Canino View Post
The HK's could simply push the bodies away and move through them with the magnetic boots. Then stand on the ceiling until the shields go down. Or cancel the shields from even coming back online with the console.
And Hk series droids understand Rakatan tech why now?

Quote: Originally Posted by Canino View Post
With the invasion the HK's are programmed to kill Jedi, and the defenses of the factory are programmed to also kill Jedi. The Sith would be slaughtered. the HK's could also use flamethrowers and carbonite attacks to kill the Sith. Or they could be suicide bombers and run with bombs about to go. Droids can be programmed to do anything.

EDIT: with the factory, new droids are constantly being produced. The numbers argument is sort of, not completely, but sort of invalid.
Key word being Jedi, Jedi are not Sith, the Hk series have also got a TERRIBLE track record hunting Jedi down, just to make the point.

Also, the droid production rate isn't very high, remember in TOR how they stated it's stupidly hard to mass produce Hk-51s? yeh.
"The Dark Jedi are in many ways more dangerous than the Sith."
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Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.17.2013 , 05:01 PM | #588
Quote: Originally Posted by Canino View Post
The HK's could simply push the bodies away and move through them with the magnetic boots. Then stand on the ceiling until the shields go down. Or cancel the shields from even coming back online with the console.
Simply is not the right word. The bodies will be flying at them with high velocity and smack them in the face. In order to get inside the HK's have to jump, step, swing whatever - all those movements include detaching their magnetic boots, even just one. With nothing to hold onto the winds will push them back, they are simply too powerful. Even with a jetpack they wouldn't get in. They can't cancel the windows from closing if they are not inside. Its simply impossible.
Quote:
With the invasion the HK's are programmed to kill Jedi, and the defenses of the factory are programmed to also kill Jedi. The Sith would be slaughtered. the HK's could also use flamethrowers and carbonite attacks to kill the Sith. Or they could be suicide bombers and run with bombs about to go. Droids can be programmed to do anything.

EDIT: with the factory, new droids are constantly being produced. The numbers argument is sort of, not completely, but sort of invalid.
Not Jedi, biologicals. They are trained to kill biologicals, the Force puts a spanner in the works, there are no defenses that are specifically effective against Force users. They have an edge in just about anything. E.g. bomb explosions they can shield against, same with flamethrowers and carbonite attacks, they can push toxins out of their bodies, they can deflect turret fire etc. And sure, they have a factory, but I don't think production is anywhere near that fast. Eventually, superior numbers will prevail. Let's also remember that if the invasion of Malachor fails he lost what, 100 units? And has 0 time to build more.

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
03.17.2013 , 08:18 PM | #589
Quote: Originally Posted by Canino View Post
With the invasion the HK's are programmed to kill Jedi, and the defenses of the factory are programmed to also kill Jedi. The Sith would be slaughtered. the HK's could also use flamethrowers and carbonite attacks to kill the Sith. Or they could be suicide bombers and run with bombs about to go. Droids can be programmed to do anything.

EDIT: with the factory, new droids are constantly being produced. The numbers argument is sort of, not completely, but sort of invalid.
The factory will have to shut down if under siege. They'll only have whatever supplies are on hand, enough to make a few more droids, but not very many. And the Sith don't need to force their way into the factory, just bomb the entrance and cave in the base on top of it.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
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GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
03.18.2013 , 09:37 AM | #590
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Simply is not the right word. The bodies will be flying at them with high velocity and smack them in the face. In order to get inside the HK's have to jump, step, swing whatever - all those movements include detaching their magnetic boots, even just one. With nothing to hold onto the winds will push them back, they are simply too powerful. Even with a jetpack they wouldn't get in. They can't cancel the windows from closing if they are not inside. Its simply impossible.
What's to stop them from blowing up the panels that drop down to cover the destroyed windows? What's to stop them from destroying another group of windows and walking in after they've sent everyone into space by blowing up a few strategic windows?

Star Wars ships do not have the same Force Field Technology that is seen in Star Trek, not even in the New Republic era. While they are able to use forcefields for hanger bays, it appears that Force Field Technology is too bulky in Star Wars to deal with hull breeches, while you're looking at the Ravenger's hull breeches as an example of force field tech for Star Wars, I really doubt that was the case. In all honesty Ravenger shouldn't have even been flying, which speaks to how powerful Nihilus was, probably powerful enough to scare the heck out of Traya.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Not Jedi, biologicals. They are trained to kill biologicals, the Force puts a spanner in the works, there are no defenses that are specifically effective against Force users. They have an edge in just about anything. E.g. bomb explosions they can shield against, same with flamethrowers and carbonite attacks, they can push toxins out of their bodies, they can deflect turret fire etc. And sure, they have a factory, but I don't think production is anywhere near that fast. Eventually, superior numbers will prevail. Let's also remember that if the invasion of Malachor fails he lost what, 100 units? And has 0 time to build more.
If you actually see the droid production facilities of the HK Factory, they easily have hundreds if not thousands of droids near completion in massive assembly lines. You can see it in the background. Losing 100 droids wouldn't be that big of a deal... Additionally, if Traya loses her fleet, she wouldn't have the ability to conduct an invasion of the droid factory anyways.

Btw, the Sith Assassins in KotOR II were not exactly Galen Marek, the Exile, Revan, or Luke Skywalker... Some of them actually died from gas mines in TSL if you lure them into them. The Sith Assassins also got stronger, the stronger in the force their opponent was. Considering HK units aren't force sensitive, that also seriously limits the power of these assassins.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
The factory will have to shut down if under siege. They'll only have whatever supplies are on hand, enough to make a few more droids, but not very many. And the Sith don't need to force their way into the factory, just bomb the entrance and cave in the base on top of it.
The military facility above the factory survived a full-scale orbital bombardment already, and the actually HK factory, is beneath another facility that is beneath the military facility...

Additionally, it stands to reason the HK-units would have tunnelling equipment to dig themselves out if someone tried what you're suggesting (they were psychotic, not complete idiots).