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Is the Lore going too much in the Favor of...

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore > Spoilers
Is the Lore going too much in the Favor of...

Koyaanisqat's Avatar


Koyaanisqat
03.11.2013 , 10:33 PM | #31
Hoth is a huge loss for the Republic. Taris is a gigantic symbolic defeat for the Republic. Malgus decimates the Republic fleet, taking many ships with him. Corellia is annexed by the Republic, but it's primary resource is destroyed. Belsavis is anything but under Republic control anymore, and they're most likely going to lose the planet to the massive prisoner army being enlisted by the Empire.
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drfumblez's Avatar


drfumblez
03.13.2013 , 10:19 PM | #32
The Empire had been winning the war for nearly 30 years before the treaty, THEN that came along and the war ended in a truce, leading to the 10-year cold war. When it started again, The Empire was winning through Act 1 and 2.

Do not whine about losing now. It's about damn time the Republic got it's freaking act together.

jovianus's Avatar


jovianus
03.15.2013 , 12:51 AM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by drfumblez View Post
The Empire had been winning the war for nearly 30 years before the treaty, THEN that came along and the war ended in a truce, leading to the 10-year cold war. When it started again, The Empire was winning through Act 1 and 2.

Do not whine about losing now. It's about damn time the Republic got it's freaking act together.
I think most players would prefer to see results from, you know, what they're actually doing in game.

Not , "Yeah, everything you do is irrelevant because the Republic is kicking your face in on every front, but some other characters in background stories set 30 years ago were totally kicking ***!"

I really find Balmorra the most annoying. I'm planning on doing a Consular play through just to figure out how we go from "Rioting breaks out on Coruscant and a humiliated Republic is forced to withdraw from multiple sectors after the revelation that they were supporting the Balmorran resistance in violation of the Treaty' to 'The Jedi knock over the Imperial government of Balmorra and install Republic allies, nobody bats an eyelash."

drfumblez's Avatar


drfumblez
03.15.2013 , 01:28 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by jovianus View Post
I think most players would prefer to see results from, you know, what they're actually doing in game.

Not , "Yeah, everything you do is irrelevant because the Republic is kicking your face in on every front, but some other characters in background stories set 30 years ago were totally kicking ***!"

I really find Balmorra the most annoying. I'm planning on doing a Consular play through just to figure out how we go from "Rioting breaks out on Coruscant and a humiliated Republic is forced to withdraw from multiple sectors after the revelation that they were supporting the Balmorran resistance in violation of the Treaty' to 'The Jedi knock over the Imperial government of Balmorra and install Republic allies, nobody bats an eyelash."
If you picked the Empire because you'd thought you'd win, you might want to go watch the original trilogy again. The situation before "A New Hope was the same as it is here:

The underdogs have been losing incredibly badly for the last 20+ years, but then a string of major victories in a few short years turn the tide (despite numerous setbacks) to set the Empire on the losing side, The Empire losing it's Emperor and most powerful figurehead (Vadar/Malgus) soon after.

So no, I really don't feel any sympathy for those suckers who went Empire and are now mad that their choices mean nothing.

QuiDonJorn's Avatar


QuiDonJorn
03.15.2013 , 01:53 PM | #35
Agreed.

Suck-eeerrrzzzzz.

jovianus's Avatar


jovianus
03.15.2013 , 04:12 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by drfumblez View Post
If you picked the Empire because you'd thought you'd win, you might want to go watch the original trilogy again. The situation before "A New Hope was the same as it is here:

The underdogs have been losing incredibly badly for the last 20+ years, but then a string of major victories in a few short years turn the tide (despite numerous setbacks) to set the Empire on the losing side, The Empire losing it's Emperor and most powerful figurehead (Vadar/Malgus) soon after.

So no, I really don't feel any sympathy for those suckers who went Empire and are now mad that their choices mean nothing.
I know the Empire is going to lose sometime in the next 3000 years, if Bioware plans for the Republic to just win constantly right now, they shouldn't have bothered making the Empire a playable faction.

"Oh well, in the background fluff that has nothing to do with you the Empire was totally kicking Republic butt, but in the game that you actually get to play and interact with, you're just here to lose constantly." is not a good business strategy.

I mean, you're clearly a fan of the Republic, if the Empire won every major victory and everything you did as a Republic player was irrelevant, would you really be content with, "Oh well, at least I know that in a few thousand years due to events that I don't see or have anything to do with we win eventually anyway." ?

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
03.15.2013 , 05:19 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by yoomazir View Post
Dunno, but since Malgus is down, the Empire doesn't have anymore a "leader" while the Republic still have Satele; and since you brought the Shan, I thought it would be fun if she turned into the Dark Side.
Oh please.
Malgus was one of the LEAST influential darths in the Sith order.
The only reason he wasn't killed was because he had no power base. People think he was the leader just because he gave out quests....
The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion. Culminating in a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from… save one.
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Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
03.15.2013 , 05:41 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by jovianus View Post
I really find Balmorra the most annoying. I'm planning on doing a Consular play through just to figure out how we go from "Rioting breaks out on Coruscant and a humiliated Republic is forced to withdraw from multiple sectors after the revelation that they were supporting the Balmorran resistance in violation of the Treaty' to 'The Jedi knock over the Imperial government of Balmorra and install Republic allies, nobody bats an eyelash."
I did and found Balmorra the most wonderful of the planets the Republic won, shortly followed by Corellia. IMO it weren't really the Jedi who knocked over the Imperial government. In the end, it were the Balmorran Resistance. The Empire continued to oppress Balmorra and the people continued to raise up against them.

In the Balmorra Imperial worldquest, there is even dialogue which alludes to that:

PC: "Darth Lachris, you should show the Balmorrans that we are not their enemy."
Lachris: "Thanks for the tip, but I have my own plans with Balmorra."

Darth Lachris should have listened to that.

While the Jedi Consular is crucial on Balmorra, the plan comes from a Balmorran (Tai Cordan) and a Balmorran (Zenith) does most of the work.

On Balmorra and Corellia the Empire assumed that if it would treat the planets a little better than other conquered worlds, the people would welcome them with open arms. Which was a terrible miscalculation. The people started to fight, even after being bashed several times.

(Actually I wouldn't have minded if Ilum was an Imperial victory, but on those two planets it was pretty clear that it always was Republic+the people vs Empire, so the Empire loosing is seems right.)


Also, as I already said, I would really like to see a true imperial planet like Ziost in the future. With the Republic in the offensive, this might actually happen. (Republic can loose then, that wouldn't be a problem. But please break the pattern Empire invades -> Republic drives them back.)
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

dewback_rancher's Avatar


dewback_rancher
04.12.2013 , 08:26 PM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by jovianus View Post
I know the Empire is going to lose sometime in the next 3000 years, if Bioware plans for the Republic to just win constantly right now, they shouldn't have bothered making the Empire a playable faction.
Actually, the Empire has to lose sometime in the next ONE thousand years, not three.

In 2000 BBy-ish, Darth Ruin basically restarts the Sith from scratch after the old Sith are all eradicated. Then his Sith wage a millenium long war, bam, Ruusan Reformations afterwards, then another thousand years from that to the Prequels.

The old Sith, for the established backstory to work, have to be basically eradicated such that almost all records are lost by one thousand odd years in the future (hence the 'New Sith Wars', as those Sith have little to no connection to these Old Sith (we're playing a war during the Old Sith Wars (basically the Great Hyperspace War through to this and everything in between; the Old Sith are those with a direct connection to the original Sith) other than name and basic ideology and, if they're really lucky, finding a stray holocron or tattered parchment here or there).

Admittedly a millenium is still a long time to do things in, but the idea was always that the Sith were stamped out as thoroughly as the Republic thought they were after the New Sith Wars for about as long as the millenium of peace before the Prequels. By the New Sith Wars, the Republic is again thriving, and its hold is again firm over the galaxy, and apparently has been for some time.

So, I'd argue that they have at most a few centuries to lose in, and quite probably less, as centuries-long galaxy-spanning individual wars were pretty unheard of by the time of the New Sith Wars, which was literally constant warfare for a thousand years (with the last three centuries seeing the Republic reduced to the Core and nothing else).

I'd say the evidence points to a decades-long to a century-or-two-long war at best. Still a lot of time to play around with in an MMO timescale (not arguing against that!), but not this huge open gap you're implying.

Not without massive retcons.

In any case, I have to agree that it's fine to have the Republic's war effort gaining steam.

Think of TOR like the Original Trilogy. We're in the full swing of the A New Hope phase, with the 'good guys' gaining momentum and getting big victories after being the underdogs for so long. I wouldn't be surprised if we started hitting The Empire Strikes Back stuff eventually. Then we go to Return of the Jedi.

It's really the kind of arc I'm expecting from this Great Galactic War, as they seem so intent on emulating the films. The tide swings back and forth a few times then comes to a head in a cataclysmic battle that ends it all.

So just wait. Even as a primarily-Republic player, I'm confident the Empire will strike back, and when they do, it's going to be hard, and right where it hurts. Then the tide of the war should swing back and forth and give everyone good periods of time where their faction is on top.

Basically, though, this kind of Republic resurgence is needed from a storytelling point so that the Republic isn't the one crying foul. The Republic gets to strike the early victory, then, well, I'll let someone who was part of a later Empire speak for me:

"You may win the occasional battle against us, Vorrik, but the Empire will always strike back."
―Gilad Pellaeon
"If you know you're going to make an idiot out of yourself in public, you might as well have FUN with it!"
-me, on my philosophy on life

Stonehound's Avatar


Stonehound
04.14.2013 , 02:08 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Kawabonga View Post
Oh please... the Empire represents evil, and in what good story does the evil prevail? The empire is meant to lose because it's full of bad guys, and plot requires them to eventually fail
It sounds to me like you never watched...
Spoiler

...In which the main villain kills the one guy who genuinely knows who he is, gets all of his accomplices offed so they can't contradict him, gets himself granted legal immunity in exchange for useless testimony by a judge who thinks he's just a small time crook, pulls the wool over an FBI agent's eyes with a completely fabricated story while taunting him in a hilariously unsubtle fashion that the agent fails to pick up on, walks out of the police station unharassed, and vanishes into the underworld, never to be anywhere near the clutches of the law again.

It got multiple Academy Awards and is generally recognized as one of the best films of the 90s.