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8 man HM Zorn and Toth. I feel they need a slight nerf, please discuss

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
8 man HM Zorn and Toth. I feel they need a slight nerf, please discuss

mcslack's Avatar


mcslack
03.12.2013 , 10:56 AM | #31
Our guild is fairly new and not enough 50s yet so any endgame I do is pug. I cant help you with how to nerf, but if I can pug EC for comms run and beat up to the Tanks then I dont think it needs it. Im still new to high lvl raid and if pugs can beat EC comms run it kinda says not very difficult.
If any thing the whole game needs nerfing with an in game voice comm. I think that would make the HARDER content much more doable for all.

Koordynator's Avatar


Koordynator
03.12.2013 , 11:18 AM | #32
DarthFamine, a free tip for you:
Stop to mouseclick and keyboard turn and you're on good way to beat them.

Also, if you're not full rakata yet better do EV/KP HM and ECSM to gear up. If you are then you must have some BH items already (rain of bh coms ftw). It's hard to even imagine how people in BH gear can wipe there, sorry but it seems the problem is lack of skill of your guild not the content difficulty. So stop asking for nerf when most of the people geared enough for the content have no problems with it. Sad to say but L2P.

JimmyTheCannon's Avatar


JimmyTheCannon
03.12.2013 , 02:42 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthFamine View Post
Firebrand and stormcaller are irrelevant for the discussion at hand.

Have you noticed it's always the three of us arguing about this stuff?
Except they're not irrelevant, because you have to take the difficulty of the raid as a whole.

Raids where the first boss is much easier than the rest are improperly balanced and cause problems. How is it irrelevant when you're supposed to go from one boss fight to the other in the same exact gear, with the same exact skill level, in the very same night?

My guild was able to take down Zorn and Toth fairly regularly (without using the Berserk trick) for AGES before we were able to do Stormcaller and Firebrand. If you can't do the first one, you're not going to be able to do the rest of it.

And yeah, I've noticed we post in some of the same threads. :-)

Daelars's Avatar


Daelars
03.13.2013 , 05:10 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthFamine View Post
Take it at face value, I do feel that alot of it is too difficult for the casual player. Seeing the nerfs coming to lost island in 2.0 it would seem that I was borne out on that point. Hard modes should be hard, not impossible. Nightmare modes should be completely unforgiving. But that's another discussion. I really do feel that this encounter does throw a bit too much at the players and should be nerfed.

But not into oblivion.

Hence my desire for feedback.
You say "casual" player and ill tell you something that is exactly what sm ops are for. They have the exact same story and everything so you don't miss out on anything how about that. If you want to step up to real raiding and do the hm and nim versions quit your whining and learn the mechanics or don't raid! it is that simple.

Edit: Also these fights are not hard at all in hm as long as you learn and stay true to the mechanics of the fight. If you think this fights hard wait until you get to kephass which is also extremely easy on hm if you compare it to its nim version! Its all about the mechanics that is what raiding is all about. If you want to over ride mechanics then stick to story mode.

abokado's Avatar


abokado
03.13.2013 , 05:14 PM | #35
Did they stealth buffed Toth and Zorn recently or was my group just way too tired today? I am a bit surprised, we have killed them both now a few times without problem but today we tried for an hour before we gave up. People were suddenly dying like crazy and the tanks said they had some weird debuffs, lightning around their feet or something. Not that I'm complaining, not at all, just a bit surprised.
And Toth was a bit buggy, too, he didn't jump when he was supposed to, leading to the death of a tank.
(And yes, we did checke if we were accidentally doing NiM, we weren't!)

Koyaanisqat's Avatar


Koyaanisqat
03.13.2013 , 08:16 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthFamine View Post

If you don't feel that they need a nerf then move along, the purpose of the thread is how to, not does it need it.
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theUndead
03.13.2013 , 08:21 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthFamine View Post
Proceeding from the premise that they need a slight nerf, my challenge is this. How can you nerf them slightly while preserving the challenge level of the encounter.


If you don't feel that they need a nerf then move along, the purpose of the thread is how to, not does it need it.


My best suggestion would be to nerf or remove completely some of the mechanics. perhaps the yellow circle.
or maybe lower the damage they do slightly, say 10% over the course of the fight.

though that might be too much.

Suggestions?
My guild has two active raid teams. The second have just recently downed HM Zorn and Toth and because of that first take down every time we do EC HM we take them down one shot. In terms of the rest of the raid we have downed the tanks but not Vorgath yet. Anyway back to the point. Do I think they are too hard? No. Do I think they need to be nerfed? Absolutely not.
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Ocho-Quatro's Avatar


Ocho-Quatro
03.15.2013 , 09:21 AM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthFamine View Post
I do feel that alot of it is too difficult for the casual player.
Story Mode is for the casual player.

The "casual player" is concerned with leveling, storyline content, seeing all the flashpoints and their stories, cinematics, etc. Story Mode Operations are perfect for, and DESIGNED for the casual player. (At least at this point in the game.)

It used to be, that Story Mode was a stepping stone... a learning tool so you could move up to Hard Mode... But Bioware has nerfed most of the Story Mode Ops to the point that they are a social event moreso than a launching pad to get into Hard Mode.

Hard Mode/Nightmare Mode Explosive Conflict is NOT designed for the casual player, and nor should it be. Just like Hard Mode Terror From Beyond is not designed for the casual player.

Example: Both my wife and I play SWTOR. I love endgame, min-maxing, and the challenges presented by the most difficult content... She enjoys playing socially, leveling, some story mode ops. The premise of logging on, and wiping for 2 hours on a raid boss in HM/NiM EC/TfB (read: progression raiding) is NOT something she finds enjoyable, and doesn't care that she will never get native Dread Guard gear, and it doesn't bother her one bit. She fully comprehends that it would be totally ludicrous of her to expect to be handed/able to complete with ease, the hardest content of the game, as a casual player who doesn't even know what a "parse" is. This doesn't make her a BAD player, it makes her a casual player who is finding her fun in game in her own way, which is different than my fun. We have overlaps, but that stops at HM/NiM EC and HM TfB.

Casual players can obtain a full set of Black Hole with Campaign armorings for set bonus, simply by doing dailies, weeklies and story mode operations. Dumbing down ANY of the top tier HM/NiM content to satisfy the "casual player" is a fatal mistake.

TL;DR - You are either a casual player or a progression/min-maxer. There is not really any middle ground between the two, and any casual player who thinks that the content should be dumbed down so they can easily get the "Dread Entity" title or the Hard Mode Aratech Nightscythe speeder without putting the time/effort that the more hardcore players did to get it, are being unreasonable and it's BAD FOR THE GAME.

FYI - "alot" is two words. -> a lot

One last thing.... Who remembers HM EV/KP a year ago? Seeing someone on Fleet in full Rakata would make you do a double-take. Because that content was HARD. And everyone was doing it in Columi gear. The casual player was NOT downing Soa or Karagga in Hard Mode..... These days, everyone can get 61/63 gear from dailies/weeklies/GTN and go into HM EC with the gear (or better) that drops from it. So if you can't down HM EC, and you are in full 61s.... nerfing the content isn't going to fix your "problem".
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Never_Hesitate
03.15.2013 , 09:25 AM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthFamine View Post

If you don't feel that they need a nerf then move along, the purpose of the thread is how to, not does it need it.
So you don't want any different opinions in your thread?
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mikebevo's Avatar


mikebevo
03.15.2013 , 10:00 AM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Ocho-Quatro View Post
Hard Mode/Nightmare Mode Explosive Conflict is NOT designed for the casual player, and nor should it be. Just like Hard Mode Terror From Beyond is not designed for the casual player.
Guess this is hard to wrap my head around, I've done HM EC now on my main and 2 alts, I have done HM TfB on my main and 1 alt. I have done 2 bosses in NiM EC, so I am not a casual player. hmmm still feel pretty casual

@OP - I think HM Zorn and Toth should be nerfed by not nerfing it. You will feel the same once your group figures out all the mechanics. The fight is extremely easy once everyone is on the same page, just like every fight in the game (or any game), plus you get the satisfaction that your group overcame its difficulty.

Our group had extreme difficulty on Operator IX in HM TfB, now I laugh about it because the fight may be the easiest in HM TfB, but at the time it was extremely frustrating, but we overcame.