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The Myth of the PT Jedi Guardians

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The Myth of the PT Jedi Guardians

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.28.2013 , 03:37 AM | #121
In response to this on-going debate. I still hold the view that the 'Myth of the PT Jedi Guardians' is in fact truth - but Ventessel has raised some good points as to why it is only to an extent.

However ultimately, despite having a wealth of combat experience, the negative, capping effects that prolonged war has on a Jedi, both through the chaotic whirlwind of emotions that surrounds them, and the growing presence of the dark side, those Jedi can only become so powerful.

Only though times of peace can a Jedi reach their full potential, this is not to say a Jedi is weakened by war, as Vent points out this would make the Jedi highly ineffective guardians of the Republic if they were averse to the concept of battle. However, it can still be held that a Jedi can never achieve full potential in times of war, they may have enough strength and skill to defeat their opponents, but that strength will always be limited.

As such, the PT Order is largely more skilled with the lightsaber than a Jedi of the OR era or any other era before. Simply because they are able to come closer to the Force and have done so, producing the most powerful Jedi Masters in galactic history.

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
02.28.2013 , 08:28 AM | #122
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
However ultimately, despite having a wealth of combat experience, the negative, capping effects that prolonged war has on a Jedi, both through the chaotic whirlwind of emotions that surrounds them, and the growing presence of the dark side, those Jedi can only become so powerful.

Only though times of peace can a Jedi reach their full potential, this is not to say a Jedi is weakened by war, as Vent points out this would make the Jedi highly ineffective guardians of the Republic if they were averse to the concept of battle. However, it can still be held that a Jedi can never achieve full potential in times of war, they may have enough strength and skill to defeat their opponents, but that strength will always be limited.

As such, the PT Order is largely more skilled with the lightsaber than a Jedi of the OR era or any other era before. Simply because they are able to come closer to the Force and have done so, producing the most powerful Jedi Masters in galactic history.
If we hold this to mean Jedi strictly drawing from the Light Side of the Force, then I would agree with your statement, based on earlier distinctions drawn as to what defines a Jedi.

Of course, this still raises the glaring question of how Luke Skywalker becomes so powerful. He's experienced very little peace in his time...
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Darkondo's Avatar


Darkondo
02.28.2013 , 08:58 AM | #123
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
In response to this on-going debate. I still hold the view that the 'Myth of the PT Jedi Guardians' is in fact truth - but Ventessel has raised some good points as to why it is only to an extent.

However ultimately, despite having a wealth of combat experience, the negative, capping effects that prolonged war has on a Jedi, both through the chaotic whirlwind of emotions that surrounds them, and the growing presence of the dark side, those Jedi can only become so powerful.

Only though times of peace can a Jedi reach their full potential, this is not to say a Jedi is weakened by war, as Vent points out this would make the Jedi highly ineffective guardians of the Republic if they were averse to the concept of battle. However, it can still be held that a Jedi can never achieve full potential in times of war, they may have enough strength and skill to defeat their opponents, but that strength will always be limited.

As such, the PT Order is largely more skilled with the lightsaber than a Jedi of the OR era or any other era before. Simply because they are able to come closer to the Force and have done so, producing the most powerful Jedi Masters in galactic history.
^Well said

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
02.28.2013 , 11:24 AM | #124
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post

Of course, this still raises the glaring question of how Luke Skywalker becomes so powerful. He's experienced very little peace in his time...
He was like Anakin, a very quick learner and not only did he learn from Obi-Wan and Yoda.(I mean he made it to Jedi Knight within the span of what? 3 years? Something which takes a decade at least.) But he also learned from holocrons, journals, other Jedi/force sensitives across the galaxy, etc etc. It isn't like he woke up one day, and became uber powerful, he went across the galaxy and learned from all over.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
03.03.2013 , 05:43 PM | #125
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
He was like Anakin, a very quick learner and not only did he learn from Obi-Wan and Yoda.(I mean he made it to Jedi Knight within the span of what? 3 years? Something which takes a decade at least.) But he also learned from holocrons, journals, other Jedi/force sensitives across the galaxy, etc etc. It isn't like he woke up one day, and became uber powerful, he went across the galaxy and learned from all over.
I didn't really answer this immediately because it's not totally on topic, but it is an interesting point.

Luke's training of the New Jedi Order is something of a novelty. I can see a lot of similarities to the Jedi Exile's work in rebuilding the Order following the First Jedi Purge, except that the Exile had 300 years of peace to do so, while Luke was working during almost constant galactic warfare.

Jedi of the NJO were initially trained in the "Fast, Medium, Strong" styles developed by Corran Horn, Kyle Katarn, and Luke Skywalker in the years following the Battle of Endor. Eventually they uncovered most of the older styles, and we know that Luke was trained in at least Djem So and Ataru by Yoda prior to his battle with Darth Vader onboard DSII.

The Jedi of Luke Skywalker's order seemed to be more readily militant than prior Jedi. They frequently trained together as fighter wings, and Luke even adapted the Jedi Code to omit the phrase "never to attack others". I think that this represented a fundamental shift in the philosophy of the new Jedi that Luke was training. Any comments, theories?
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
03.03.2013 , 06:01 PM | #126
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
The Jedi of Luke Skywalker's order seemed to be more readily militant than prior Jedi. They frequently trained together as fighter wings, and Luke even adapted the Jedi Code to omit the phrase "never to attack others". I think that this represented a fundamental shift in the philosophy of the new Jedi that Luke was training. Any comments, theories?
This takes place every time the Jedi Order is on the verge of collapse, it is refashioned and adapted to compensate for the weaknesses that had been used against them to be almost wiped out anyway.

The Exile and Luke made some changes, the Ruusan reformation made others, so it has happened throughout the Order's history.
Who else would have the strength to do what I've done? Who else but me could come this far? I am Revan."
Revan Order

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
03.03.2013 , 06:14 PM | #127
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
This takes place every time the Jedi Order is on the verge of collapse, it is refashioned and adapted to compensate for the weaknesses that had been used against them to be almost wiped out anyway.

The Exile and Luke made some changes, the Ruusan reformation made others, so it has happened throughout the Order's history.
Luke reshaped the Jedi dramatically, however. In some ways he returned to some ancient customs, in others he was breaking new ground.

For instance, Jedi are allowed to marry freely, and their children seem to be powerful force sensitives at least half the time, if not more. It's always been something of an unknown how bloodlines affect Force aptitude, whether it actually has a powerful effect or not.

To quote Wookiepedia:
"The teachings of the New Order differed from those of the Old in several ways, and were closer to those practiced by the Jedi before the Great Sith War. Jedi were allowed to marry and have families, and each Jedi Master could train multiple apprentices. Jedi were allowed to use conventional weapons and armor besides their lightsabers, and the wearing of the Jedi robes, while popular, was no longer mandatory. For a long time, the Order was also much less centrally controlled, with each Jedi being given much greater personal freedom and responsibility."
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
03.03.2013 , 06:21 PM | #128
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
Luke reshaped the Jedi dramatically, however. In some ways he returned to some ancient customs, in others he was breaking new ground.

For instance, Jedi are allowed to marry freely, and their children seem to be powerful force sensitives at least half the time, if not more. It's always been something of an unknown how bloodlines affect Force aptitude, whether it actually has a powerful effect or not.

To quote Wookiepedia:
"The teachings of the New Order differed from those of the Old in several ways, and were closer to those practiced by the Jedi before the Great Sith War. Jedi were allowed to marry and have families, and each Jedi Master could train multiple apprentices. Jedi were allowed to use conventional weapons and armor besides their lightsabers, and the wearing of the Jedi robes, while popular, was no longer mandatory. For a long time, the Order was also much less centrally controlled, with each Jedi being given much greater personal freedom and responsibility.
Yes, Luke in his own words had realised that the very restrictions themselves and how staunchly they were enforced, were often times a reason for a Jedi to fall, doesn't mean the NJO didn't get owned by loosening and even removing many of those restrictions.

Whilst Luke made improvements, he also made some monumentally stupid decisions regarding the rules of his Order, emotions ran rampant in the Jedi of his time.

Whilst some Jedi had the perk of confronting their emotions and not being overwhelmed by them due to ignoring said emotions and not acknowledging them, it also meant that his Jedi were poorly guided in how to subvert.

I still maintain that the Orthodox Jedi Order had the best outlook.
Who else would have the strength to do what I've done? Who else but me could come this far? I am Revan."
Revan Order

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
03.03.2013 , 06:34 PM | #129
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
Yes, Luke in his own words had realised that the very restrictions themselves and how staunchly they were enforced, were often times a reason for a Jedi to fall, doesn't mean the NJO didn't get owned by loosening and even removing many of those restrictions.

Whilst Luke made improvements, he also made some monumentally stupid decisions regarding the rules of his Order, emotions ran rampant in the Jedi of his time.

Whilst some Jedi had the perk of confronting their emotions and not being overwhelmed by them due to ignoring said emotions and not acknowledging them, it also meant that his Jedi were poorly guided in how to subvert.

I still maintain that the Orthodox Jedi Order had the best outlook.
How to subvert what? I'm not sure I see what you're getting at there.

As for emotions running rampant in the Jedi Order, I think that the NJO took a more mature stance than the orthodox Jedi did. After all, we rarely see Jedi falling to the Dark Side during battles, but rather they are seduced by certain Sith who play to their natural tendencies (Jacen Solo and Lumiya) or they give in to impatience during their training (also under the influence of Sith spirits in many cases).

However, all of this happened regardless in the orthodox Jedi Order. If anything, the establishment of families helped to stabilize many Jedi and strengthened their roots to the Order. The NJO seems to be more resilient on the whole, when compared to the Jedi Order during the later days of the Old Republic.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
03.03.2013 , 06:41 PM | #130
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
How to subvert what?
Emotions.

There weren't nearly as many problems created by lack of subversion in the Jedi Order than there was in the NJO, hell even the students in Luke's Praxeum had problems.

Not to mention that the NJO failed so badly that the Jedi of Cade Skywalker's day were at an almost all time low for the Order.
Who else would have the strength to do what I've done? Who else but me could come this far? I am Revan."
Revan Order