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DPS operatives in 2.0


AngelofCain's Avatar


AngelofCain
02.22.2013 , 08:44 AM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by NoTomorrow View Post
So you are basically saying that you will need to come ahead and intercept and do anything possible not to allow the sniper to reach the node with his buddy together?
yes. My take on 2v1 or whatever. 1v1 is possible, just sometimes you have to stagger your opponents.

if you aren't doing anything possible to make life hectic for people, you really aren't playing operative to it's fullest.

We should be the class that makes people blow everything, and have nothing for your teammates.
Hallow, ägronä, <Status unknown> -(Concealment Operative)
Elite Warlord (since1.2) // Warzone Annihilator

Cwild's Avatar


Cwild
02.22.2013 , 09:52 AM | #62
Quote: Originally Posted by AngelofCain View Post
yes. My take on 2v1 or whatever. 1v1 is possible, just sometimes you have to stagger your opponents.

if you aren't doing anything possible to make life hectic for people, you really aren't playing operative to it's fullest.

We should be the class that makes people blow everything, and have nothing for your teammates.
Pretty much, the goal in a 2v1 if you can not win it is to simply make them blow their escapes, cc's, and hope you can prolong just enough to where if you die your friends will come destroy them with their 0 cooldowns. Exactly what hallow stated. Many people dont realize how long Operatives can hold nodes...its just about los and positioning.

ktkenshinx's Avatar


ktkenshinx
02.22.2013 , 03:22 PM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by NoTomorrow View Post
Lets take another scenario,
You are defending a node alone, the sniper comes with some other class, lets say somebody with no stealth detection.
The other dude comes to node and starts capturing. The sniper position himself somewhat behind so he can have within his cone of vision his team mate (if you will try to mezz the guy doing the captures, you will be in sniper's vision cone).

The sniper rolls into cover, and starts gaining stealth detection levels, he might as well activate entrench. The other dude is capturing.

What is your plan to delay the capture for as long as possible? Do you seek to sleep the sniper before he gets to cover? when will you use sneak?
My gut instinct in situations like this is always to sleep the non-Sniper and take my chances against the Sniper himself; there are few classes I would rather fight in a 1v1. Maybe a Lightning Sorc, but that's about it. If the Sniper doesn't have his Escape up, we can hit him a lot harder than we can his friend in the first few seconds of our opener. Also, with the PTS changes to Guard, damage dealt to the guarded target will no longer crack a mezz on the guard himself. That gives us better defensive options.

The other problem here is that the Sniper might have a stealther with him. If he does, you do not want to go out and meet the Sniper to sap; the enemy stealther might have detection talents and/or sneak/fadeout up, which can put you in a vulnerable position by rushing out to meet a supposedly "solo" attacker. I generally hide as long as possible just to confirm how many opponents are around.

Let's assume that the Sniper is watching the node capper. If the Sniper is himself capping a node with (maybe) Sin/Op backup, that's another scenario entirely.

So if the Sniper is watching the node with his detection, my objective is to Sleep Dart his buddy before opening on the Sniper. That means I need to reach the capper without getting detected.

Thankfully, and this is a purely geometric and theoretical model, I do not think there is ANYWHERE that the Sniper can stand where I cannot navigate around his cone to Sleep Dart his buddy. If he stands too close to the capper, I just approach the sniper from behind and Dart over his shoulder. If he stands too far away from the capper, I just approach from the front, interposing the node between myself and the Sniper. This is a very tricky thing to model out, but I think the approach would always be clear.
The Outlaw Miyke Fink: Scrapper, Prophecy of the Five
See you, space cowboys!: Formerly of Brown Coats
---THE SCRAPPER'S HANDBOOK: A PvP Guide---

Syberduh's Avatar


Syberduh
02.22.2013 , 05:48 PM | #64
On the PVE side of things, here's a concealment spec ops boss dummy pass I did with the stock, non-augmented level 69 gear you get on the PTS*:

*Fully buffed with rakata skill stim, but the gear alone gets you to 2500 main stat so the stim isn't nearly as big a deal as it used to be.

http://www.torparse.com/a/141067

2100 dps. If I were better about using orb strike and explosive probe on cooldown and keeping corrosive dart up it probably would have been 2150-2200. Not the 2500 that marauders can apparently do, but at least in the same universe. And this is without augments.

Overall energy management is much easier. You can actually afford to screw up without being energy starved for the rest of the fight.
Ushanev Syberjugg<Illegal Test Kitchen>
Because chicks dig orange overcoats and guys who don't die.
And streams. Chicks totally dig streams. I mean, right guys? They do, right?

Fallenturtle's Avatar


Fallenturtle
02.22.2013 , 09:21 PM | #65
Quote: Originally Posted by Syberduh View Post
On the PVE side of things, here's a concealment spec ops boss dummy pass I did with the stock, non-augmented level 69 gear you get on the PTS*:

*Fully buffed with rakata skill stim, but the gear alone gets you to 2500 main stat so the stim isn't nearly as big a deal as it used to be.

http://www.torparse.com/a/141067

2100 dps. If I were better about using orb strike and explosive probe on cooldown and keeping corrosive dart up it probably would have been 2150-2200. Not the 2500 that marauders can apparently do, but at least in the same universe. And this is without augments.

Overall energy management is much easier. You can actually afford to screw up without being energy starved for the rest of the fight.
thanks for the parse That was on the operations dummy on the fleet right? I'm asking because some parses are showing marauders with 2760 dps but they are on the warzone dummies. It's hard for me to do a parse on the test server seeing as the lag on the fleet is ridiculous.
Did you see a lot of misses with the 107% accuracy (assuming that you have that companion max) ?
still not within 5% of the rest of the classes that I'm seeing tho.
The Drakenhoff Legacy.
<Assimilation>/<Working as intended>
<Jedi Covenant>
In Domus De Aurum Et Ossuim Resistance is futile.

Syberduh's Avatar


Syberduh
02.22.2013 , 11:42 PM | #66
Yep the ops dummy on my ship. I don't recall seeing any misses. Don't forget this gear has no augments. I don't know if the 2700 dps guys are augmented by I suspect so. Also this was far from a perfect pass. I screwed up numerous times and as you can see did not use EP/OS on cooldown. Someone who's better with concealment pve rotation/priority should easily do 10%+ more dps.
Ushanev Syberjugg<Illegal Test Kitchen>
Because chicks dig orange overcoats and guys who don't die.
And streams. Chicks totally dig streams. I mean, right guys? They do, right?

MiralukaJedi's Avatar


MiralukaJedi
02.23.2013 , 01:28 AM | #67
Quote: Originally Posted by Syberduh View Post
Yep the ops dummy on my ship. I don't recall seeing any misses. Don't forget this gear has no augments. I don't know if the 2700 dps guys are augmented by I suspect so. Also this was far from a perfect pass. I screwed up numerous times and as you can see did not use EP/OS on cooldown. Someone who's better with concealment pve rotation/priority should easily do 10%+ more dps.
Except Ops dummy on the ship is level 50...not 55. So you pulled 2100 on an enemy 5 levels lower. Still not looking promising for Ops DPS-wise (though energy is WAY better).

Best I pulled was a little over 2000 on the 55 ops dummy, but I've not touched concealment in a while (swapped to lethality). So its probably possible to hit 2100-2200, but we're still in the dust. Especially when that's 69 gear and people (non Ops) are hitting that in 63 gear on live.

ktkenshinx's Avatar


ktkenshinx
02.23.2013 , 10:51 AM | #68
Quote: Originally Posted by MiralukaJedi View Post
Except Ops dummy on the ship is level 50...not 55. So you pulled 2100 on an enemy 5 levels lower. Still not looking promising for Ops DPS-wise (though energy is WAY better).

Best I pulled was a little over 2000 on the 55 ops dummy, but I've not touched concealment in a while (swapped to lethality). So its probably possible to hit 2100-2200, but we're still in the dust. Especially when that's 69 gear and people (non Ops) are hitting that in 63 gear on live.
Our sustained damage is going to be higher, but I can't imagine that it will rival a Marauder in a drawn out fight. The fundamental flaws of Scrapper design still remains.

1. Our primary "delivery system" of Flechette Round, Backblast, has a 12 second CD, but the FR DOT itself only lasts 6 seconds. That leaves us with 6 "dead seconds" where that DOT is not ticking on our target.

2. Our secondary resource, Upper Hand, still has only one generator on a 6second CD timer. Indeed, to maximize that resource, we need to keep 1 stack of it active at all times, or we lose a 2% damage boost. Other classes, like Pyrotechs and Sins, do not even have a second resource that they need to use and manage (they have procs and buffs, but those do not get "spent" in quite the same way). Marauders have a much more generous secondary resource system.

3. Scrappers still have no automatic critical or "big combat moment" to build up to. Most other DPS competitors do have such a move. Deception Sins have giant Mauls. Rage has Smash. Snipers have a number of instant activations and free attacks used in combos. Carnage gets Force Screams. The list goes on. We are reliant only on random critical hits and a good rotation.

In the long run, these flaws do not hurt our PvP performance too much. In the first 15 seconds of a fight, our damage is going to be the highest; there just aren't classes out there that can handle SF+FR, BW, Kick, SC, BB+FR, SP, BW, SP, SP over those first seconds, and there aren't a lot of classes that can put out that same kind of damage. But if testing is done on Ops dummies (at least, testing over 5-6 minutes), our DPS will be comparatively lower.
The Outlaw Miyke Fink: Scrapper, Prophecy of the Five
See you, space cowboys!: Formerly of Brown Coats
---THE SCRAPPER'S HANDBOOK: A PvP Guide---

Fallenturtle's Avatar


Fallenturtle
02.23.2013 , 06:53 PM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
Our sustained damage is going to be higher, but I can't imagine that it will rival a Marauder in a drawn out fight. The fundamental flaws of Scrapper design still remains.

1. Our primary "delivery system" of Flechette Round, Backblast, has a 12 second CD, but the FR DOT itself only lasts 6 seconds. That leaves us with 6 "dead seconds" where that DOT is not ticking on our target.

2. Our secondary resource, Upper Hand, still has only one generator on a 6second CD timer. Indeed, to maximize that resource, we need to keep 1 stack of it active at all times, or we lose a 2% damage boost. Other classes, like Pyrotechs and Sins, do not even have a second resource that they need to use and manage (they have procs and buffs, but those do not get "spent" in quite the same way). Marauders have a much more generous secondary resource system.

3. Scrappers still have no automatic critical or "big combat moment" to build up to. Most other DPS competitors do have such a move. Deception Sins have giant Mauls. Rage has Smash. Snipers have a number of instant activations and free attacks used in combos. Carnage gets Force Screams. The list goes on. We are reliant only on random critical hits and a good rotation.

In the long run, these flaws do not hurt our PvP performance too much. In the first 15 seconds of a fight, our damage is going to be the highest; there just aren't classes out there that can handle SF+FR, BW, Kick, SC, BB+FR, SP, BW, SP, SP over those first seconds, and there aren't a lot of classes that can put out that same kind of damage. But if testing is done on Ops dummies (at least, testing over 5-6 minutes), our DPS will be comparatively lower.
I totally agree with all these. I have been playing on the test server for a few days now and against the operations dummy on the fleet using stock pve gear that we are given, I was able to hit about 2k dps as lethality. Concealment I hit about 1.7k. both fights were for 5 minutes with no stims or "on use abilities" in extreme lag. It almost seems as if the concealment tree is not fully constructed and a lot of it's talent points are just there to fill up space. they could combine a whole lot of talents and put up actual dps boosting talents in their place.. maybe one to let us use hidden strike other than out of stealth, after all. it's not making sense that one of our highest hitting dpe moves is only usable once every 1.5 minutes yet there's several talents that play off of it high up in the concealment tree.

As it stands right now, in my opinion and from my testing, our only viable DPS option is going to be lethality due to its fantastic energy management, the ease of gaining and keeping a TA (shiv proc a free cull every 6 seconds roughly) and the improvements to the dot system itself (Corrosive grenade is no longer on a cool down so when your facing multiple mobs you wont have to wait for that grenade to come on a target)

I heard that they are changing tank assassins based on feedback, and as testers of the operative variety the community has left their own feedback so let's hope that they finally listen to us non glowstick users..
The Drakenhoff Legacy.
<Assimilation>/<Working as intended>
<Jedi Covenant>
In Domus De Aurum Et Ossuim Resistance is futile.

Syberduh's Avatar


Syberduh
02.23.2013 , 07:22 PM | #70
Quote: Originally Posted by MiralukaJedi View Post
Except Ops dummy on the ship is level 50...not 55. So you pulled 2100 on an enemy 5 levels lower. Still not looking promising for Ops DPS-wise (though energy is WAY better).

Best I pulled was a little over 2000 on the 55 ops dummy, but I've not touched concealment in a while (swapped to lethality). So its probably possible to hit 2100-2200, but we're still in the dust. Especially when that's 69 gear and people (non Ops) are hitting that in 63 gear on live.
Thanks for pointing that out.

Pass on the fleet ops dummy for 2025:

http://www.torparse.com/a/142223

I agree that it's probably possible for concealment to be in the 2100-2200 range in un-augmented Arkanian gear with a very tight rotation.
Ushanev Syberjugg<Illegal Test Kitchen>
Because chicks dig orange overcoats and guys who don't die.
And streams. Chicks totally dig streams. I mean, right guys? They do, right?