Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Call out thread to SWTOR DEVS

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Crew Skills
Call out thread to SWTOR DEVS

wargonglok's Avatar


wargonglok
02.06.2013 , 06:26 PM | #11
here's what i think

crewskills for people who arent doing high end raids are pretty useless,

i liek to think that im the most avergae person in the game, i got full columi, as best as i can get it, with 3 campaign armorings

until i get into higher tier raids, which are tough, just to get into. Crewskills are basically worthless. In next expac, add armors that are equal to rakata for all slots, but instead of rakata set bonus, have special set bonuses,

or something like that. Make something not top tier (though i love the idea of mats coming from ops and then being crafted) and add soemthing COOL, not exactly super powerful, but COOL. Get what i mean?
Sniper, 'nough said

Mozivicus's Avatar


Mozivicus
02.06.2013 , 08:40 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
O.o

Are you suggesting that the crew skill vendors would sell you Grade 27 schematics for instant crafting of top-tier items?
What's the problem with this? All of the crew skills had rakata grade patterns available to them at the launch of the game from their crew skill vendor....when rakata was the top tier gear. The only caveat was, whatever you crafted was BOP.

Why would it be bad to do the same at the onset of the new xpac? Oh wait....you haven't QUITE enough time to make millions crafting your 27s?

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
02.06.2013 , 11:09 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Mozivicus View Post
What's the problem with this? All of the crew skills had rakata grade patterns available to them at the launch of the game from their crew skill vendor....when rakata was the top tier gear. The only caveat was, whatever you crafted was BOP.

Why would it be bad to do the same at the onset of the new xpac? Oh wait....you haven't QUITE enough time to make millions crafting your 27s?
I struggled between responding in a like fashion to your snarky dig, and giving you an honest response.

*struggle*

Okay, now that that's done.

The high-end crafting is a recent activity for me (as in only the last 3 weeks or so), but I've been playing the game for a year. Early on, which I first hit 50 and I was trying to understand what seemed to be a bewildering gear progression, I eventually figured out the rules the devs had set up.

It seemed to me this was designed to make it difficult to get good gear in the game, which would (in an ideal world) encourage people to get together to tackle end-game operations. Coming from a purely single-player background, and never having been in an MMO before, this was a bit of a carrot-on-a-stick for me to try out the "M" in what had been a mostly solo experience.

I discovered that I enjoyed end-game raiding, and the groups I hung out with. I liked the complexity of the gear, as it gave me something to figure out. Sites like AskMrRobot gave me something to fiddle around with to see how gear worked together. And the theorycrafters at mmo-mechanics had insights into how to optimize one's build, priority list and gear.

When 1.2 dropped and BH/Campaign gear was out, it was the first end-game gear (other than some Columi schems) that could be crafted. It was difficult to learn as a 20% chance to RE hard-won gear wasn't always an easy choice.

When 1.3 dropped and the GF handed out BH comms like candy, it was easier for people to spend extra comms to buy extra gear just for the chance to learn the schem.

When 1.5 dropped and Dread Guard was added, the raiders that got through the new content had a chance of learning to craft the top tier gear. Seemed like a good reward to me.

I like the idea that gear isn't easy to get. You either have to run operations, do lots of group finder FPs, or make a ton of money to buy the gear off of the gtn. I also like the idea that the gear schematics are even harder to get. It's a personal preference, sure.

Somehow, I gather you're going to write this opinion off as some sort of character flaw that I'm either elitist or am happy to gouge others on the gtn. If it tempers your view in this matter, I craft lots of gear just for mats, even for strangers.

Basically, the devs presented a ruleset for gear in the game. I decided to play by the rules. You want to change the rules to make top-level gear obtainable with practically no effort. Seems lazy to me. Why not work for your reward? I suppose it's a good thing the ArtMoney hacks don't work on SWTOR or you just might magik yourself up some credits, too?

(I guess I lost my struggle against a snarky response)

asbalana's Avatar


asbalana
02.07.2013 , 09:12 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
I struggled between responding in a like fashion to your snarky dig, and giving you an honest response.

*struggle*

Okay, now that that's done.

The high-end crafting is a recent activity for me (as in only the last 3 weeks or so), but I've been playing the game for a year. Early on, which I first hit 50 and I was trying to understand what seemed to be a bewildering gear progression, I eventually figured out the rules the devs had set up.

It seemed to me this was designed to make it difficult to get good gear in the game, which would (in an ideal world) encourage people to get together to tackle end-game operations. Coming from a purely single-player background, and never having been in an MMO before, this was a bit of a carrot-on-a-stick for me to try out the "M" in what had been a mostly solo experience.

I discovered that I enjoyed end-game raiding, and the groups I hung out with. I liked the complexity of the gear, as it gave me something to figure out. Sites like AskMrRobot gave me something to fiddle around with to see how gear worked together. And the theorycrafters at mmo-mechanics had insights into how to optimize one's build, priority list and gear.

When 1.2 dropped and BH/Campaign gear was out, it was the first end-game gear (other than some Columi schems) that could be crafted. It was difficult to learn as a 20% chance to RE hard-won gear wasn't always an easy choice.

When 1.3 dropped and the GF handed out BH comms like candy, it was easier for people to spend extra comms to buy extra gear just for the chance to learn the schem.

When 1.5 dropped and Dread Guard was added, the raiders that got through the new content had a chance of learning to craft the top tier gear. Seemed like a good reward to me.

I like the idea that gear isn't easy to get. You either have to run operations, do lots of group finder FPs, or make a ton of money to buy the gear off of the gtn. I also like the idea that the gear schematics are even harder to get. It's a personal preference, sure.

Somehow, I gather you're going to write this opinion off as some sort of character flaw that I'm either elitist or am happy to gouge others on the gtn. If it tempers your view in this matter, I craft lots of gear just for mats, even for strangers.

Basically, the devs presented a ruleset for gear in the game. I decided to play by the rules. You want to change the rules to make top-level gear obtainable with practically no effort. Seems lazy to me. Why not work for your reward? I suppose it's a good thing the ArtMoney hacks don't work on SWTOR or you just might magik yourself up some credits, too?

(I guess I lost my struggle against a snarky response)
Although I disagree with the concept of what you are saying, I read your comments with respect until the last paragraph where you called non raiders lazy. You may want to rethink that. People do not raid for many reasons and "effort impairment" is the least of them.

I have played since early access and very quickly (through effort and cost) had every crafting skill leveled to 400. I do not raid and so my crafting was topped out and has been at a dead end for a very long time. My many many experiences of runs of fails that number 30 or above in REing 20% schematics has discouraged me from throwing untold millions to get one higher level schematic through the buy and RE route.

To many of us, crafting is crafting and not raiding. If we have to raid to craft then we are excluded and can never be a top level crafter or gear our characters out with anything better than fourth best ins slot. Yes, we can buy some of the mods from raiders who also craft, but if you have multiple characters even a ton of credits will not do it.

So indeed the devs can set any rule system in place that they want. The system as it now exists is just a variation of raid or die from WOW and for many it just does not do it because if they do not raid, it excludes them, limits them and makes them forever second or third rate. To me that is not a good thing in a non niche game that wants to maintain a significant number of subs.

tl:dr - I am a crafter, not a raider and would like to be able to craft to the highest level possible.

nbayer's Avatar


nbayer
02.07.2013 , 09:41 AM | #15
It's not impossible to advance your crafting without raiding. I know because I can craft a variety of 26s and 27s and I've never got a single once from raiding.

The rakata 25s are drops in raids so you can't get those, but the 26s can be learned by pulling mods out of the black hole gear and REing, and you can get lots of black hole comms without raiding.

As for the 27s you can purchase them from raiders or off the GTN, and then RE them, so it's really just a matter of credits. Once you get one then you make credits faster to do it again with the next one and so on from there.

Either way the OPs original post was about just having the schematics on the vendor and allowing people to sell them, which would be just terrible. Because if everyone could craft them then they are essentially worthless.

Mozivicus's Avatar


Mozivicus
02.07.2013 , 12:06 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
I struggled between responding in a like fashion to your snarky dig, and giving you an honest response.

*struggle*

Okay, now that that's done.

The high-end crafting is a recent activity for me (as in only the last 3 weeks or so), but I've been playing the game for a year. Early on, which I first hit 50 and I was trying to understand what seemed to be a bewildering gear progression, I eventually figured out the rules the devs had set up.

It seemed to me this was designed to make it difficult to get good gear in the game, which would (in an ideal world) encourage people to get together to tackle end-game operations. Coming from a purely single-player background, and never having been in an MMO before, this was a bit of a carrot-on-a-stick for me to try out the "M" in what had been a mostly solo experience.

I discovered that I enjoyed end-game raiding, and the groups I hung out with. I liked the complexity of the gear, as it gave me something to figure out. Sites like AskMrRobot gave me something to fiddle around with to see how gear worked together. And the theorycrafters at mmo-mechanics had insights into how to optimize one's build, priority list and gear.

When 1.2 dropped and BH/Campaign gear was out, it was the first end-game gear (other than some Columi schems) that could be crafted. It was difficult to learn as a 20% chance to RE hard-won gear wasn't always an easy choice.

When 1.3 dropped and the GF handed out BH comms like candy, it was easier for people to spend extra comms to buy extra gear just for the chance to learn the schem.

When 1.5 dropped and Dread Guard was added, the raiders that got through the new content had a chance of learning to craft the top tier gear. Seemed like a good reward to me.

I like the idea that gear isn't easy to get. You either have to run operations, do lots of group finder FPs, or make a ton of money to buy the gear off of the gtn. I also like the idea that the gear schematics are even harder to get. It's a personal preference, sure.

Somehow, I gather you're going to write this opinion off as some sort of character flaw that I'm either elitist or am happy to gouge others on the gtn. If it tempers your view in this matter, I craft lots of gear just for mats, even for strangers.

Basically, the devs presented a ruleset for gear in the game. I decided to play by the rules. You want to change the rules to make top-level gear obtainable with practically no effort. Seems lazy to me. Why not work for your reward? I suppose it's a good thing the ArtMoney hacks don't work on SWTOR or you just might magik yourself up some credits, too?

(I guess I lost my struggle against a snarky response)
Thanks for the personals ad, I feel.....closer to you now.

You're still missing my point though. The top tier schematics were available to crafters from their crew skills vendor at the onset of the game. Those wares were BOP when crafted. I.e., they could not be sold. THAT was the reward for choosing synth weaving , armormech, artifice, etc. you could outfit yourself in top tier gear.....non-mod-able gear, but top grade.

So, why would it be bad to , with the coming expansion, allow level 400 crafters the ability to do the same thing again? Even if you don't want to allow them to craft grade 28 or 29 stuff (dread guard +1 and +2), why not allow them to craft BOP 63 stuff?

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
02.07.2013 , 12:12 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by asbalana View Post
Although I disagree with the concept of what you are saying, I read your comments with respect until the last paragraph where you called non raiders lazy. You may want to rethink that. People do not raid for many reasons and "effort impairment" is the least of them.

I have played since early access and very quickly (through effort and cost) had every crafting skill leveled to 400. I do not raid and so my crafting was topped out and has been at a dead end for a very long time. My many many experiences of runs of fails that number 30 or above in REing 20% schematics has discouraged me from throwing untold millions to get one higher level schematic through the buy and RE route.

To many of us, crafting is crafting and not raiding. If we have to raid to craft then we are excluded and can never be a top level crafter or gear our characters out with anything better than fourth best ins slot. Yes, we can buy some of the mods from raiders who also craft, but if you have multiple characters even a ton of credits will not do it.

So indeed the devs can set any rule system in place that they want. The system as it now exists is just a variation of raid or die from WOW and for many it just does not do it because if they do not raid, it excludes them, limits them and makes them forever second or third rate. To me that is not a good thing in a non niche game that wants to maintain a significant number of subs.

tl:dr - I am a crafter, not a raider and would like to be able to craft to the highest level possible.
Interesting. Coming from a non-MMO background, I only have TOR to compare anything to.

I have seen players describe crafting in SWG with praise, and I gather that the entire crafting experience was perhaps better thought out than the one in this game.

it would seem to me (correct me if I'm wrong) that to truly address the concerns of the dedicated crafting player, it would require a LOT of work in revamping how crafting is done.

Here's what I imagine would happen if the only change made were adding grade 27 schematics to the vendor.

1. Every fresh 50 would buy these schematics.
2. They would then proceed to craft themselves high-level gear, obviating the need to do any sort of end-game activity for gear.
3. The group finder would dry up, as what value is BH comms?
4. Players that aren't sure if they would like to run flashpoints / operations have a harder time getting a group together, as fewer people are doing gear progression.
5. Every single crafter under the sun is trying to sell top-tier gear on the gtn, reducing the price below the cost of materials.
6. Those dedicated crafters suddenly can't afford to be in business, and are forced to do end-game operations just to get materials

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
02.07.2013 , 12:14 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Mozivicus View Post
Thanks for the personals ad, I feel.....closer to you now.

You're still missing my point though. The top tier schematics were available to crafters from their crew skills vendor at the onset of the game. Those wares were BOP when crafted. I.e., they could not be sold. THAT was the reward for choosing synth weaving , armormech, artifice, etc. you could outfit yourself in top tier gear.....non-mod-able gear, but top grade.

So, why would it be bad to , with the coming expansion, allow level 400 crafters the ability to do the same thing again? Even if you don't want to allow them to craft grade 28 or 29 stuff (dread guard +1 and +2), why not allow them to craft BOP 63 stuff?
Whoa, I completely missed your original point.

I could see the value in crafting BOP stuff. However, the Rakata belt and bracers were pretty terrible, (in my opinion). I believe the reasoning behind that were to prevent crafters from making gear with level 58 mods and armoring that could be ripped out and redistributed.

What sort of BOP stuff would you like to see crafted?

Mozivicus's Avatar


Mozivicus
02.07.2013 , 12:43 PM | #19
Ok, glad you see what I'm saying now.

As to what I would like to see available? Just something to keep the allure or feel of a reward for each profession. For us, veterans, it will likely be incosenquential as we have top tier gear, millions of credits, and the means to blow through new top tier content for the latest duds. But, to newcomers, they do not have that luxury. So, the point of all this, we need to allow them the same luxury we had.....get good gear to start max content as soon as possible. Allow them to craft BOP grade (at least) 27 gear for themselves. It doesn't even have to be like at launch where the top gear available in raids was rakata and players could craft rakata grade stuff. If the top tier available n the xpac is grade 28, then at least allow them to craft BOP 27s, ya know.

To keep the carrot out there, do the same as at launch. Make players WANT the same tier gear from operations so they can get a nice set bonus. Or make the gear from raids better optimized, stats wise.

The whole point is, keep the gear gap close. We don't want to have fresh 50s "needing" to run through EV, KP, EC, TFB, then "needing" to run through HM EV, HM KP, HM EC, and HM TFB to get the same level gear that you and I have right now. There's empty grinding as is, lets not deter out future guild mates by unnecessarily mandating they grind outdated content for the simple sake of "puting in their dues".

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
02.07.2013 , 01:08 PM | #20
@Mozivicus, it will be interesting to see what BW does with gear when the level cap is raised to 55.

There's a good chance that the artifact-level gear you finish Makeb with will outclass much of the current end-game stuff.