Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Good way to explain EC HM to guild?


mxlm's Avatar


mxlm
02.01.2013 , 12:01 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by SturmUndSterne View Post
as all of the trenchgutters will immediately upon spawn find the healer that's in the bunker and head right toward it.
This is incorrect. Trenchcutters spawn with aggro on tanks, not healers.

SturmUndSterne's Avatar


SturmUndSterne
02.01.2013 , 12:11 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by mxlm View Post
This is incorrect. Trenchcutters spawn with aggro on tanks, not healers.
And since the healers are pretty well consistently healing at that point, they'll aggro them in no time, especially if it's a sage/sorc dropping their AoE. Consider that the tanks have no threat on any of the mobs to start aside from what they spawn with, and the healers are generating threat pretty well constantly..

That's actually part of why we guard the healers during this fight as well - especially since with the amount of tauntswapping you do on Kephess, no one ever really rips aggro for us, and the threat reduction helps somewhat.

mxlm's Avatar


mxlm
02.01.2013 , 01:18 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by SturmUndSterne View Post
And since the healers are pretty well consistently healing at that point, they'll aggro them in no time, especially if it's a sage/sorc dropping their AoE. Consider that the tanks have no threat on any of the mobs to start aside from what they spawn with, and the healers are generating threat pretty well constantly..
Not necessarily. Trenchcutter threat generation is nonstandard, at least while they're under the shield (in Ni. I would guess in HM as well, but we never used a strat in HM that would have caused me to notice, so that's just an assumption). I've seen--several times, while we learning the fight--healer aggro pull a warrior out of a pack of cutters while the cutters continued on to the tank. Beyond that, my group's approach to the cutters goes like this:

Tank guards other tank. Guarding tank and dps stand behind the walker. Guarded tank and healers move in front of the walker. Guarded tank and healers peel the warriors as they spawn. Cutters beeline to guarding tank.

And we have never seen cutters change target to the healers before reaching the group behind the walker.

SturmUndSterne's Avatar


SturmUndSterne
02.01.2013 , 02:03 PM | #14
Maybe that's it. You're standing in front with your peel/raid, we tend to be off to the side in the bunker where the first group spawns. This means, for our #2 and #3 groups, they have a bit of a walk to get to the party. The warrior is peeled off quickly, and the trenchies have a few seconds of picking up healing aggro - and once the warrior is peeled out, they can pick up the healer pretty quickly.

Interesting strategy you have, though. Maybe we'll try it next time to see if it runs smoother. Always up to try new ECHM techniques.

mxlm's Avatar


mxlm
02.01.2013 , 03:02 PM | #15
Yeah, it might be the extra time walking without the shield, but I don't think it's ever been definitively established what the deal with cutter threat generation is, so grain of salt and all that. I just posted because "cutters immediately target healers" isn't actually what happens; it's what's happening with what your group is doing, but if another group wants to try a different strat and they assume that cutters will go hit healers it might cause them some problems.

You're welcome to try the strat if you want, of course, but it's probably overly complicated for nightmare (it just addressed some issues we were having that were specific to our group) and is almost certainly overly complicated for HM.

Siorac's Avatar


Siorac
02.02.2013 , 04:27 AM | #16
BTW, why is Fearful considered such a big issue?

The first time we did Zorn and Toth on hard mode was with four melee DPS (one Shadow, three Sentinels). The tanks just swapped the bosses between each other (so the tanks stayed in the same position throughout, only the bosses moved). The DPS on Zorn's side only had to pay attention that after the jump, they start hitting Toth instead of Zorn, immediately.

When we actually tried it with ranged DPS it caused all sorts of nightmares in positioning and such. It was far easier to just revert to the "groups swap the bosses" routine which, as far as I can see, has no downside.

jasonthelamb's Avatar


jasonthelamb
02.02.2013 , 01:01 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Siorac View Post
BTW, why is Fearful considered such a big issue?

The first time we did Zorn and Toth on hard mode was with four melee DPS (one Shadow, three Sentinels). The tanks just swapped the bosses between each other (so the tanks stayed in the same position throughout, only the bosses moved). The DPS on Zorn's side only had to pay attention that after the jump, they start hitting Toth instead of Zorn, immediately.

When we actually tried it with ranged DPS it caused all sorts of nightmares in positioning and such. It was far easier to just revert to the "groups swap the bosses" routine which, as far as I can see, has no downside.
Because a DoT will kill someone w/ Fearful

Siorac's Avatar


Siorac
02.03.2013 , 09:07 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by jasonthelamb View Post
Because a DoT will kill someone w/ Fearful
Toth's jump immediately removes dots, we tested it (with three Watchman Sentinels it was kinda important). If you put a dot up after the jump, well, you're screwed, but that's just bad play.

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
02.03.2013 , 03:30 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Siorac View Post
BTW, why is Fearful considered such a big issue?
Simply, reflected damage.

If you're DPS are on the ball and stop DPS on Zorn when the leap is about the happen, then transfer on to Toth without hitting Zorn it's fine. If you're DPS are a little slow on the uptake they can very quickly kill themselves by using a multi hit ability such as Master Strike or a DoT, heck a Pyro that uses Flame Burst (or really anything other than Rocket Punch) after Fearful goes out will kill themselves.

Using 4 melee is completely doable, but you're adding more points of failure into a fight that is really punishing on them.
The Kae-Sare Legacy - The Harbinger
<Vindication> <Retribution>

Gralleh Grall'eh Khyar
Gralleh's Guide to Guardian Tanking [UPDATED for 2.0]

Furiel's Avatar


Furiel
02.04.2013 , 09:05 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Siorac View Post
BTW, why is Fearful considered such a big issue?

The first time we did Zorn and Toth on hard mode was with four melee DPS (one Shadow, three Sentinels). The tanks just swapped the bosses between each other (so the tanks stayed in the same position throughout, only the bosses moved). The DPS on Zorn's side only had to pay attention that after the jump, they start hitting Toth instead of Zorn, immediately.

When we actually tried it with ranged DPS it caused all sorts of nightmares in positioning and such. It was far easier to just revert to the "groups swap the bosses" routine which, as far as I can see, has no downside.
The downside as already pointed out is how punishing Fearful is someone screws up. The other things is the DPS loss which can be an issue if your DPS is low/undergeared. Not a big issue for you configuration as you described it since 3 of your 4 DPS can leap to the boss instantly and the other has force speed you have almost no DPS loss. Compare that to a group with a couple slingers and a gunnery commando (what we usually run with) and try doing swaps like that and watch your DPS plummet due to the constant running your turret classes now have to do.
Furiel Plush
Cardinal and Raid Coordinator of The Church of Alvis