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Buff all other classes instead of nerfing smash


SomeJagoff

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So pretty much every smasher does Not want smashed nerf, understandable, and every other class does want it nerfed, also understandable.

 

So how about this?

 

Give every class (I guess even non-smash juggs) a 1st tier tree talent that reduces aoe damage reduction by 50%. Now while that may seem like a big reduction, keep this in mind, the sorcs who are getting smashed for 7000+ will "only" be smashed for 3500+, the same will apply to all other classes based on their armor rating. Assassins, Maras, and Snipers already have similar talents to reduce aoes, maras close to the bottom of the tree, assassins mid tree, and snipers close to the top. So simply move those talents to the bottom tier tree so that they can spec into them regardless of spec. A one or two point talent would probably be best. Maybe change the sniper one so that it doesn't require entrench and make it just while in cover or something to that effect.

 

Is this a lot more effort for the devs than simply nerfing the damage of smash? yes. But is it the easiest solution to balance pvp without having to nerf pve damage output? definitely.

 

And before the smashers get upset about a reduction of their dps, keep in mind that this would be an Optional tree talent that costs points, so inevitably there would be people (such as those who don't have a problem with smash) who would go out of their way to not spec into it. And even with the skill spec'd into, leaping into a group of 5 unbubbled sorcs and smashing them all will still give you ~17k total damage. Heavy armor tanks who usually get hit for 4k-4.5k, they'd instead get hit for 2k-2.2k.

 

It would still be an issue with multiple smashers smashing at the same time, but it would be a lot easier/manageable for a healer to heal through. It would not touch any of the smash tree talents, the auto-crit, stacked damage buffs, etc., but it would decrease the negative effect on every other class, if they chose to spec into the aoe damage reduction talent, that is.

 

So what are your thoughts? Both smashers and non-smashers alike? Please only reasonable responses, i.e., no "I want to be able to smash a sorc for 7k no matter what!" or "smashers shouldn't even be able to smash for 1k damage on a sorc!"

 

Edit: For AOE dependent specs, such as madness/engineering, buffs to specic tree talents to double damage output would keep the damage where it is now against enemies with the proposed 50% aoe damage reduction talent active. Against enemies without the proposed aoe damage reduction, those aoe dependent specs would be buffed to bring them in line with the damage output of smash spec.

Edited by SomeJagoff
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You're still nerfing Madness and Engineering, and other specs with this. Smash isn't the only AoE in the game you know.

 

Yeah I would be really upset if anything happens to madness...I know only a few that play it because its so squish.

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You're still nerfing Madness and Engineering, and other specs with this. Smash isn't the only AoE in the game you know.

 

for more aoe dependent specs, tweaking the skills in those trees to increase the damage output would fix any incidental nerf from the aoe damage reduction, such as say increasing Creeping Death to 20/40/60 or Experimental Explosives by 30/60.

 

As mentioned in my original post, by making it an optional tree talent, not necessarily everyone would want to waste a point or two by specing into it. So with the above changes to madness/engineering, people who chose not to use those talents would get hit harder by madness/engineering (buff to those specs) and people who chose to use those talents would get hit the same as they are now (no change).

 

Something along those lines would balance those specs for pvp and increase their damage output for pve. Obviously smash wouldn't need similar buffs, since as is, it hits twice as hard as deathfield/orbital strike/etc.

 

But yes, part of the title of the thread is "buff all other classes," so these would be good added changes in addition the aoe damage reductions for each class. Keep 'em coming. =)

Edited by SomeJagoff
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If more people were better at the game, smash wouldn't be an issue at all. It takes no less than 3 GCD as a minimum to execute a full power smash. With the excess of CC in this game, if you can't figure out a way to mitigate the smash-monkey in that amount of time, you deserve to get hit by it, plain and simple. The spec is only effective in PUG play anyways, as organized teams usually focus-fire a smasher as soon as he/she is revealed as such. I actually retired my smasher at this point, because I always lend up focus fired and perma-stunned, and he was rage long before rage "became cool".

 

But, by all means move/make aoe reduction talents for the first/second tier, and nerf all other aoe specs. Though, I can't think of a talent that is more than 30% reduction at this point (except the sniper one, that requires entrench, which requires cover). I am certain other classes that never had the choice will be thankful.. unless they lose a talent that makes their spec better/work in the process. (Which would most likely happen to a hyrbid specced toon, seems Bioware hates them anyways.)

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So because some smash monkey doest want to be nerfed, engineering and other specs need to do 50% less damage? Jeez...

 

I have a better idea, revert rage not to pre 1.4, but to pre1.2, there you go, you dont need to change anything else.

Edited by NoTomorrow
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If more people were better at the game, smash wouldn't be an issue at all.)

 

Yeaaaah totally man! Your smashmonkey isn't OP, you're just THAT GOOD, and everyone else is bad. All of them are.

 

And the only reason premades stack them is because that's what all the best players are playing!

 

Heh.

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Ok, so let me get this straight.

 

First you want to basically reduce all AoE PvP damage by 50% (You meant just AoE damage made by players, right? You wouldn't just flatly reduce all AoE damage by half and turn many PvE bosses into jokes, right? RIGHT?)

And then increase AoE damage of AoE dependent specs on the level of Smash to compensate.

 

So instead of of nerfing of one tree of two advanced classes, we first nerf ALL AoE abilities, and then buff only some of the specific ones back to be competitive. Which just by the way completely breaks balance in PvE and still makes dozens of currently often-used and useful skills (Orbital Strike? Acid Grenade? Frag Grenade?) completely useless in PvP. And all that, just to avoid nerfing Smash. (which is one tree for two advanced classes)

 

........GENIUS!

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If more people were better at the game, smash wouldn't be an issue at all. It takes no less than 3 GCD as a minimum to execute a full power smash. With the excess of CC in this game, if you can't figure out a way to mitigate the smash-monkey in that amount of time, you deserve to get hit by it, plain and simple. The spec is only effective in PUG play anyways, as organized teams usually focus-fire a smasher as soon as he/she is revealed as such. I actually retired my smasher at this point, because I always lend up focus fired and perma-stunned, and he was rage long before rage "became cool".

 

Dominate lasts 20 seconds, the longest CC chain possible is 19 seconds, can't remember how long shockwave lasts but it's around that. Berserk/enrage, charge+smash takes slightly longer than 1.5. You mean you can't find 1.5 seconds for your smash?

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lol @ defending op Smashers.

 

A Balance pass is sorely needed. Perhaps remove the auto crit in the spec so guys cannot just min max power/surge. That would help tone it down as you would need to stack some crit.

 

Another option could be limiting it to 3 players in a 5 meter range kind of like force in balance in the balance sage tree.

 

Or you could make it a single player attack.

 

Just saying.

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@Jherad: Actually, by most of the (exaggerated) standards around here, I must suck. As I have never hit a smash on anyone for 7k+. And yes, I do have pvp gear on, about 1250 exp, iirc. I say people are bad because the spec is sickeningly easy to counter, if you just pay attention. Organized pvp teams seem to have little issue countering it, it is the PUG people fighting 1 vs 1 50meters from the objective that have the most issue with it, it seems.

But I am not going to tell the oblivious how to do it. Play one for a little while, and you'll see just how easy it could be to counter. Also, you handily ignored the fact that I said I have retired said toon already. I am not opposed to altering the final amount of smash damage at all, I just think the method of the OP is the wrong way to do it.

 

@Drak: Actually, it is 4 advanced classes (Jedi classes too), but yes, altering those four would be far better than altering all, and then most OP encounters also.

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if you give all classes 50% AOE reduction, that is a direct nerf to not only smash, but all AOE attacks in the game.

 

Death From Above is already pretty crappy. id prefer that its damage wasnt even worse :rolleyes:

 

It's the same selfish mentality we humans promote among our peers: if I go down, then i will take as many with me as i can :)

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Dominate lasts 20 seconds, the longest CC chain possible is 19 seconds, can't remember how long shockwave lasts but it's around that. Berserk/enrage, charge+smash takes slightly longer than 1.5. You mean you can't find 1.5 seconds for your smash?

 

So, you are telling me that you (or you and your friends) can't kill one guy in 19 seconds? Unless it is you against him with a pocket healer, at which time you should realize that you need to move on or get help. Or just be happy that you took the focus of 2 toons for awhile, taking one for the team, as it may be.

 

I never said I couldn't find the required gcd's to get off a couple charged up smashes in a fight, but if the other side included a team, I usually didn't get more than that. I always saw allot of chain-stun, focus-fire after that point. Even some of the pug on pug fights were like that.

Edited by Shatterstar
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So, you are telling me that you (or you and your friends) can't kill one guy in 19 seconds? Unless it is you against him with a pocket healer, at which time you should realize that you need to move on or get help. Or just be happy that you took the focus of 2 toons for awhile, taking one for the team, as it may be.

 

I never said I couldn't find the required gcd's to get off a couple charged up smashes in a fight, but if the other side included a team, I usually didn't get more than that. I always saw allot of chain-stun, focus-fire after that point. Even some of the pug on pug fights were like that.

 

Smash can be countered, nobody denies that, MM Snipers can whipe the floor with Smash spec on a regular basis. However, i don't like that these guys have the comfort of ignoring completely crit stat while I as a sniper need to go for Power, Crit, Surge AND Accuracy while you just stack power+surge. I don't care how easy is it to counter you or how difficult you find rage to play.

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If more people were better at the game, smash wouldn't be an issue at all. It takes no less than 3 GCD as a minimum to execute a full power smash.

 

On a jugg, spec into unstoppable, enrage, leap, smash. Group of 5 guys, 5-7k smashes at once. No counter. Yeah, you lose overall dps from not using crush, except I've still pulled 550k damage in a match with no crush.

 

GENIUS!

 

It is. =) The alternative is to nerf smash by removing shockwave, remove the autocrit, and basically break jugg dps completely in pvp and make it lackluster compared to pretty much every other class for pve. Since there are so many smashers now, if you break their only viable spec, then those guys will all stop playing/buying stuff off the cartel market, which means less $$ for EA, which means less content for all of us.

 

As I have mentioned twice now, this solution would make the aoe damage reduction an optional 1-2pt talent, there would be no obligation whatsoever to spec into it. So if you thought fps/ops/etc. were too easy, don't spec into it, simple as that. But for the pvpers who are getting smashed for 6-9k, this would make them happy.

 

Since most of the talent trees only have three 2-3pt talents on the first tier, adding a fourth talent for aoe damage reduction would not alter any of the current specs. It would only allow people the option to spec into an extra talent if they're, say, in a match against 4-6 smashers, which is fairly common on the harbinger now.

 

As others have suggested and as has been suggested before, making smash a single target ability instead of aoe could also solve the problem, except I imagine there are sorcs who still do not wish to be hit for 7-9k in pvp.

 

For those against this idea of aoe damage reduction for all classes and simply want smash nerfed, you need to realize that if smash is nerfed, juggs will have no viable pvp dps spec at all and their pve dps spec will be mediocre at best compared tp nearly every other class.

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So, you are telling me that you (or you and your friends) can't kill one guy in 19 seconds? Unless it is you against him with a pocket healer, at which time you should realize that you need to move on or get help. Or just be happy that you took the focus of 2 toons for awhile, taking one for the team, as it may be.

 

 

You do realize the cc chain requires mezzing, which breaks on damage.

I never said I couldn't find the required gcd's to get off a couple charged up smashes in a fight, but if the other side included a team, I usually didn't get more than that. I always saw allot of chain-stun, focus-fire after that point. Even some of the pug on pug fights were like that.

 

So first you tell me I should be happy to be focused, then you complain about being focused.

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Funny, OP suggests an aoe damage reduction across the board and all the non smashers go up in arms saying "don't nerf me bro!"...funny how everyone is all for nerfs as long as it isn't their class.

 

What was I thinking, madness assassins/sorcs have to much burst and have way to much up time. How selfish of me.

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Funny, OP suggests an aoe damage reduction across the board and all the non smashers go up in arms saying "don't nerf me bro!"...funny how everyone is all for nerfs as long as it isn't their class.

 

yeah, it is funny. Right now maras are arguably the biggest problem in terms of lolsmash, mainly because of their large array of highly effective defensive cooldowns, but also because despite being smashers, they themselves have a talent that they can spec into for aoe damage reduction, which every mara smasher I know specifically specs into....and it's not because they're afraid of oribital strikes or death field.

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@Jherad: Actually, by most of the (exaggerated) standards around here, I must suck. As I have never hit a smash on anyone for 7k+. And yes, I do have pvp gear on, about 1250 exp, iirc.

 

If you've never hit a 7k smash as a smasher, you're using the wrong gear. The biggest smash I've ever hit on anyone was around 8200, probably a mostly pve geared sorc. Though, I've smashed fully pvp geared sorcs for 6700. Power+surge in every piece of gear and I promise you that you'll hit somebody for 7k+ within a few matches.

 

I am not opposed to altering the final amount of smash damage at all, I just think the method of the OP is the wrong way to do it. .

 

alright, this is a constructive thread, so what would be your method be for nerfing smash without making the whole spec largely useless for both pvp and pve?

Edited by SomeJagoff
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Smash can be countered, nobody denies that, MM Snipers can whipe the floor with Smash spec on a regular basis. However, i don't like that these guys have the comfort of ignoring completely crit stat while I as a sniper need to go for Power, Crit, Surge AND Accuracy while you just stack power+surge. I don't care how easy is it to counter you or how difficult you find rage to play.

 

Ops/Scoundrels do a pretty good job of it too, if talking 1 vs 1. But how many wz fights actually stay 1 vs 1 fights? Not many in my exp, not on the mara or the sniper. And I never completely ignored crit (perhaps that is why my smashes are less?), because there is more time spent building rage and using other spenders than the in the time spent hitting those 3 skills (waiting on their refresh).

Again, I am not saying that smash/sweep don't need to have their damage altered, because it sure seems they do. But mostly that is because many don't seem to know how to use their CC's to best effect against the spec.

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It is. =) The alternative is to nerf smash by removing shockwave, remove the autocrit, and basically break jugg dps completely in pvp and make it lackluster compared to pretty much every other class for pve. Since there are so many smashers now, if you break their only viable spec, then those guys will all stop playing/buying stuff off the cartel market, which means less $$ for EA, which means less content for all of us.

 

As I have mentioned twice now, this solution would make the aoe damage reduction an optional 1-2pt talent, there would be no obligation whatsoever to spec into it. So if you thought fps/ops/etc. were too easy, don't spec into it, simple as that. But for the pvpers who are getting smashed for 6-9k, this would make them happy.

 

Since most of the talent trees only have three 2-3pt talents on the first tier, adding a fourth talent for aoe damage reduction would not alter any of the current specs. It would only allow people the option to spec into an extra talent if they're, say, in a match against 4-6 smashers, which is fairly common on the harbinger now.

 

As others have suggested and as has been suggested before, making smash a single target ability instead of aoe could also solve the problem, except I imagine there are sorcs who still do not wish to be hit for 7-9k in pvp.

 

For those against this idea of aoe damage reduction for all classes and simply want smash nerfed, you need to realize that if smash is nerfed, juggs will have no viable pvp dps spec at all and their pve dps spec will be mediocre at best compared tp nearly every other class.

 

so the message you are trying to convey is:

1. We cannot nerf smash spec because DPS Juggernauts will be terrible in PvE.

Sorry, what forum section is this? Flash Points and Operations or PvP? Nobody ever asked what operatives think about their PvE DPS.

 

2. If we nerf class X, the customers will be unhappy and they will not bring money to the publisher.

Nice one, even beats the logic of the first statement. Your reasoning can easily be twisted against you: it's smash spec vs all other specs in the game. No matter how you make it sound, you will be the minority vs the majority. By your very own logic, you are the ones that should be nerfed so the majority can enjoy the game and bring money to the developer.

Should i open the history books for you and remind you what happened to sorcs in 1.2? Do you know what they said in their defense? "But there is so many of us! Sorcerers!, Bioware will not dare to nerf us" :D

 

And in the long term this sort of attitude is bad for business. People will play only 1 spec because it will be the most popular spec and developers would not dare to change it. Then very fast everyone will get bored of the game and quit it all together and no more money for devs.

 

See what i did there?

Edited by NoTomorrow
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There is no way that buffing everyone will work. Its too easy and convenient to nerf one class then to buff and adjust 7 others.

 

Also smash won't ever get nerfed and more than likely they will remain the top damaging classes. TOO many people have rerolled and now play these classes that Bioware won't risk pissing off a huge portion of their player base.

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I didn't read through the entire thread but the idea doesn't match the title.

 

By giving all classes a 50% damage reduction... which is a horrible idea on it's own. My 30% damage reduction makes a huge difference already... but anyways... you nerf most classes in the game... you don't buff them.

 

You also inadvertantly buff the single target damage classes that do not need any love right now. Pyro and carnage would be the next thing on the complaint list.... again.

 

There are some madness and engineer specs that would like to have a word with you outside.

Edited by UGLYMRJ
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