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Too many people are moving away from Juggs. Bioware, please help.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Too many people are moving away from Juggs. Bioware, please help.
 

erichough's Avatar


erichough
12.24.2012 , 02:17 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Sanctioned View Post
Please school me on this because I don't have a high level jugg and I also took a break.
People are speccing into the tank tree and then complaining not enough dps?


Is the difference vast? and if so, does it not make up the difference in tanking?


I thought the whole point of tanking tree is to absorb damage and aggro/taunt.
A lot of folks spec just high enough into the tank tree to get the majority of the defensive abilities (basically up to sonic barrier) and then spec vengeance up to impale. They do this because the top talent in immortal, crushing blow, was somewhat mangled in the last major jugg/guardian update - the overall damage was reduced and it was turned into a weird cone AoE. Theoretically this was to help with AoE threat, but the cone is narrow enough that I find getting more than a couple targets in it is pure luck (speaking as a jedi guardian here - my jugg is still only L33).

The mixed spec has the advantage of a hard hitting single target attack (impale) on a 9s recharge instead of the 15s for crushing blow, unstoppable, which gives you 20% extra damage restance and immunity to CC for 4 seconds after a force leap, free smash and 4% extra damage resistance from deafening defense (up to 15% extra if you can fit in enraged defense without shedding to much aggro). You give up 4% shield chance, which is not a big deal on a jugg since they rely more on defense and damage reduction, 4% internal and elemental resistances (which deafening defense more than covers) and your rage generation/usage is not quite as good. According to those who play this spec your aggro generation is about equal to the full defense spec as impale may not have increased threat gen but it does more damage than crushing blow and is on a shorter recharge, so the net aggro generation is roughly equal.

Speaking personally, I tried the spec on my jedi guardian and didn't really like it as I had to much trouble with focus use/generation and was always running out. Now, I only tested the build in solo play on ilum, so it might work better tanking in a flashpoint or operation, but I switched back to the full defense spec and enjoy that a lot more.

Trixdope's Avatar


Trixdope
12.24.2012 , 02:26 PM | #12
I play dps jug veng. Have been since release its my first and last character, im not some ***** that ditches a character to play whatever becomes the most op. funny thing is I still **** on all these mara/sents in PvP I love these smashers there so easy to beat.

jedimasterjac's Avatar


jedimasterjac
12.24.2012 , 02:29 PM | #13
Moving or not, Jaceiy Onasi will forever be my primary tank.
Quote: Originally Posted by Koozebane View Post
This isn't a couple of goobers out for some kicks. This is organized large team warfare by a single guild in a PVE zone.

Sanctioned's Avatar


Sanctioned
12.24.2012 , 03:17 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by erichough View Post
A lot of folks spec just high enough into the tank tree to get the majority of the defensive abilities (basically up to sonic barrier) and then spec vengeance up to impale. They do this because the top talent in immortal, crushing blow, was somewhat mangled in the last major jugg/guardian update - the overall damage was reduced and it was turned into a weird cone AoE. Theoretically this was to help with AoE threat, but the cone is narrow enough that I find getting more than a couple targets in it is pure luck (speaking as a jedi guardian here - my jugg is still only L33).

The mixed spec has the advantage of a hard hitting single target attack (impale) on a 9s recharge instead of the 15s for crushing blow, unstoppable, which gives you 20% extra damage restance and immunity to CC for 4 seconds after a force leap, free smash and 4% extra damage resistance from deafening defense (up to 15% extra if you can fit in enraged defense without shedding to much aggro). You give up 4% shield chance, which is not a big deal on a jugg since they rely more on defense and damage reduction, 4% internal and elemental resistances (which deafening defense more than covers) and your rage generation/usage is not quite as good. According to those who play this spec your aggro generation is about equal to the full defense spec as impale may not have increased threat gen but it does more damage than crushing blow and is on a shorter recharge, so the net aggro generation is roughly equal.

Speaking personally, I tried the spec on my jedi guardian and didn't really like it as I had to much trouble with focus use/generation and was always running out. Now, I only tested the build in solo play on ilum, so it might work better tanking in a flashpoint or operation, but I switched back to the full defense spec and enjoy that a lot more.
Thank you for the in-depth response. I understand now! I'd probably still go full-tanking spec.
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KarathAnno's Avatar


KarathAnno
12.27.2012 , 05:07 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by erichough View Post
A lot of folks spec just high enough into the tank tree to get the majority of the defensive abilities (basically up to sonic barrier) and then spec vengeance up to impale. They do this because the top talent in immortal, crushing blow, was somewhat mangled in the last major jugg/guardian update - the overall damage was reduced and it was turned into a weird cone AoE. Theoretically this was to help with AoE threat, but the cone is narrow enough that I find getting more than a couple targets in it is pure luck (speaking as a jedi guardian here - my jugg is still only L33).

The mixed spec has the advantage of a hard hitting single target attack (impale) on a 9s recharge instead of the 15s for crushing blow, unstoppable, which gives you 20% extra damage restance and immunity to CC for 4 seconds after a force leap, free smash and 4% extra damage resistance from deafening defense (up to 15% extra if you can fit in enraged defense without shedding to much aggro). You give up 4% shield chance, which is not a big deal on a jugg since they rely more on defense and damage reduction, 4% internal and elemental resistances (which deafening defense more than covers) and your rage generation/usage is not quite as good. According to those who play this spec your aggro generation is about equal to the full defense spec as impale may not have increased threat gen but it does more damage than crushing blow and is on a shorter recharge, so the net aggro generation is roughly equal.

Speaking personally, I tried the spec on my jedi guardian and didn't really like it as I had to much trouble with focus use/generation and was always running out. Now, I only tested the build in solo play on ilum, so it might work better tanking in a flashpoint or operation, but I switched back to the full defense spec and enjoy that a lot more.
Erichough is more or less correct. I leveled as a full Immortal juggernaut and played that way until 1.4 came out when I switched to hybrid and have not looked back. One important thing he missed is that hybrid spec reduces the cooldown of Force Scream by 25% allowing you to benefit from Sonic Barrier more often.

So the hybrid has better survivability and single target damage, essentially the same single target threat at the cost of worse rage generation, AoE damage, and AoE threat.

I don't like the full Immortal build because the top half of the tree exists primarily to offset the uniquely high resource penalty of our tanking stance while not offering much in the way of survivability or treat/damage gain.

Also I find the current implementation of Crushing Blow horrible. It barely does more damage then our default rage dump at a higher cost with a cumbersome AoE tacked on. To proc the AoE you need 5 stacks of the armor debuff and the only efficient way to place those is to use Smash followed by Sundering Assault making it an AoE that I can only use quickly on targets I have already hit with my main AoE.

This causes two problems. It makes a joke of Crushing Blow not breaking CC because Smash will. Also in most of the fights where I'd want another AoE it is because the enemies are spread out and Smash won't get them all or they come as adds part way through the fight and I rarely found Crushing Blow useful in those situations.

mrekxxx's Avatar


mrekxxx
12.29.2012 , 10:33 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Krozis View Post
A trend I've noticed over the past several months is that people are moving away from Juggs to Marauders.

I personally never liked Rage. It's -always- been good, but now it's extremely hard to convince anyone of the value of Vengeance... especially in ranked PVP. (Bioware: what are the numbers like on Juggernauts playing Vengeance in Ranked PVP? I'm assuming it's super low?)

So for some reason we saw Immortal got cut off at the knees. Why? I'm not sure... never saw anyone complaining about 31 spec Immortal damage the way I see 31 point tank Shadow/Assassin damage. <--- this really doesn't make any sense. Nevertheless, you did it. So how many people would say play a 'tank' Juggernaut in 31 Immortal spec? It's also broken.

As a result, I've seen more and more people move away from their juggs. There are some diehards, don't get me wrong, but generally people are seeing Jugg as having a bad tank tree (you MUST hybrid it in PVP to get the most out of your survivability which is WRONG for a tank tree. The damage is truly lethargic thanks to your changes.)

With Marauders (no this is NOT a NERF marauder thread) people see 3 valid PVP trees. All have their uses, and some are downright perfect for specific maps.

Bioware, I'm begging you to take a long look at Vengeance spec. Right now it feels like a neutered hybrid of Annihilation and Carnage.... an ugly, sibling of those trees. Bioware please take a look at how many Vengeance Juggernauts/Guardians are playing in ranked warzones.... I'm betting it's very close to where Arsenal Mercs/Commandos are sitting.

For the record I have all classes at 50. While I feel the Merc is the most lacking in PVP right now, Vengeance spec Jugg is my first class to 50 ( I think!) and it's WAY over due for some help. I also confess I'm one of the people who left the Jugg for a marauder. I got him to 50, and transferred the gear.

Is there any chance we could see something with Makeb and the new levels that will help some of the game's lackluster specs? I'd love to see some love for Vengeance.
agree ...


why to play juggernaut when is only 1 tree - rage good and rest is **** ...

marauders are still the top, all trees are good and usefull...

SneiK's Avatar


SneiK
01.01.2013 , 03:53 AM | #17
A jugg as a tank is the most overpowered class/spec in the game. No, the OP king is not the bubble sorc, and no, it's not a smasher (neither is really OP, just needs some tweaks). It's a tank jugg. No team has any success without a juggernaut tank. PT tank is a total LOL in PvP, and tanksins have different priorities than actual tanking.

So go ahead, and move away from the most overpowered spec in the game.

Aelaias's Avatar


Aelaias
01.01.2013 , 11:37 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by SneiK View Post
A jugg as a tank is the most overpowered class/spec in the game. No, the OP king is not the bubble sorc, and no, it's not a smasher (neither is really OP, just needs some tweaks). It's a tank jugg. No team has any success without a juggernaut tank. PT tank is a total LOL in PvP, and tanksins have different priorities than actual tanking.

So go ahead, and move away from the most overpowered spec in the game.
I am going to disagree with you there. Smash monkeys and their dual-wielding equivalents have become an absolute bane especially since it is now the spec of choice in premades. You put 2-3 of these bastards in one place it's over and even in a very rare 1v1 situation they can easily demolish anything they are up against other than each other within the span of their powerful defensive cooldowns.

The tank spec on the other hand takes a bit more paying attention to play effectively now in that you need to watch to make sure you have the agro. It's a little tougher to hold single target agro but stacking damage does the trick and when all else fails you have your taunts. As far as durability being inferior to the hybrid I am not sure that it really matters with a semi-competent healer. I haven't gone farther than HM FPs and SM Ops on my guardian which I recently respecced back to Defense but I am very happy with his PVE tanking ability, more so than in the hybrid spec. You couldn't pay me to take a tank other than a shadow into PVP, however.
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Exothermix's Avatar


Exothermix
01.03.2013 , 10:56 AM | #19
I was hoping this thread was a poll petitioning for npcs with bigger juggs, how wrong could I be!
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Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
01.03.2013 , 11:17 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by SneiK View Post
A jugg as a tank is the most overpowered class/spec in the game. No, the OP king is not the bubble sorc, and no, it's not a smasher (neither is really OP, just needs some tweaks). It's a tank jugg. No team has any success without a juggernaut tank. PT tank is a total LOL in PvP, and tanksins have different priorities than actual tanking.

So go ahead, and move away from the most overpowered spec in the game.
So according to your logic, a Juggernaut or Guardian is OP because they are the best at tanking ?

Being the best in something doesn't necessary mean it's OP, it can also mean that all other are weak and underpowered.

As a former tank specced Shadow, here what I think : the only tanky person I ever faced was a Guardian and I think that what all the tanks should be when using proper tank build and gear-. As a Shadow I think I'm underpowered as a tank, but OP if I use DPS gear while in tank spec because of some talents that haven't been well thought.
So a tank Juggernaut is OP ? I really don't think so.