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Lost Island HM should have better loot.

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grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
12.09.2012 , 08:33 PM | #291
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
No, even in this thread, people mostly cleared it.
You're pretty much the only person who has cleared it and is claiming it needs to drop better gear.

Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
No it's not, unless you want to compare the difficulty of Revan VS LR-5 or Mentor VS Sav-Rak
Yes, and Bulwark got nerfed, if it was still so hard with the same drop people won't be willing to do D7 that much.
No people wouldn't run D7 once they got there Aratech. Doesn't mean it needed to be changed, but if you're rewarding people with BH comms for doing a PUG run, you better not penalise them heavily for getting some bad RNG.

Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
There are HM and the SM of these is to know the HM well enough, LI is different.
You can run SM LI to get most of the mechanics but HM adds a couple and makes the existing ones more punishing. This is EXACTLY the same as TFB and EC (Fearful, Overload, Gift of the Masters, Incubation and Lightning Field come to mind as either being new brutal or just more brutal than they were).
The Kae-Sare Legacy - The Harbinger
<Vindication> <Retribution>

Gralleh Grall'eh Khyar
Gralleh's Guide to Guardian Tanking [UPDATED for 2.0]

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
12.09.2012 , 08:48 PM | #292
Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
TFB is TUNED for Camapign, people don't have the option of overgearing it without spending a fortune. HM EC is tuned for un-augmented Rakata, but most people can't clear it in that. Anyone that can, should be able to clear HM LI in Tionese/Columi mix.
Most of the people can at least do a few bosses and get upgrade from it. As for Tionese groups, I've yet to see one not wipe on that mini boss at least once and not died horribly against LR-5. The 3 bosses are around the same difficulty, all of them are not friendly to Tionese. LR-5 is a challenge to the whole team since there are a lot of things going on during the fight and melee DPS need to move well. Sav-Rak is mostly about healing. Lorrick is tank's position skill and a challenge to DPS.

Quote:
HM EV/KP are also TUNED for Columi. Doesn't mean the majority can do it in those, but those groups that do head in there with Columi will get upgrades.
Yes they can, at least quite a few bosses.

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You're now comparing what something is TUNED for with what most people can CLEAR it in. Yes, it is possible to clear content in the gear it is tuned for, that is the point! It is possible to clear LI HM in Tionese, which it is tuned for. Just because some people can't, doesn't mean it is wrong.
But the majority, again, need Columi to clear it, especially people who never did this FP before.

And it's not like the ops, you can clear a few bosses, which are significantly easier than the final one and try next time with better gear. LR-5 is not easier(not much) than Lorrick to Tionese groups.

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
12.09.2012 , 08:52 PM | #293
Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
You're pretty much the only person who has cleared it and is claiming it needs to drop better gear.
No, other people in this thread also cleared it.

Quote:
No people wouldn't run D7 once they got there Aratech. Doesn't mean it needed to be changed, but if you're rewarding people with BH comms for doing a PUG run, you better not penalise them heavily for getting some bad RNG.
Yes and then why shouldn't LI's drop fit its difficulty?

Quote:
You can run SM LI to get most of the mechanics but HM adds a couple and makes the existing ones more punishing. This is EXACTLY the same as TFB and EC (Fearful, Overload, Gift of the Masters, Incubation and Lightning Field come to mind as either being new brutal or just more brutal than they were).
But like TFB/EC HM, the HM should drop better gear, not just to test people.

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
12.09.2012 , 09:20 PM | #294
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
No, other people in this thread also cleared it.
Not in the last few pages.... Can't be bothered going back any earlier

Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Yes and then why shouldn't LI's drop fit its difficulty?
Because you can exclude LI HM from your list without missing out on rewards. It is ENTIRELY optional.

Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
But like TFB/EC HM, the HM should drop better gear, not just to test people.
It does drop better gear... Columi and Rakata.

Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Most of the people can at least do a few bosses and get upgrade from it. As for Tionese groups, I've yet to see one not wipe on that mini boss at least once and not died horribly against LR-5. The 3 bosses are around the same difficulty, all of them are not friendly to Tionese. LR-5 is a challenge to the whole team since there are a lot of things going on during the fight and melee DPS need to move well. Sav-Rak is mostly about healing. Lorrick is tank's position skill and a challenge to DPS.
Consider that people going into HM TFB KNOW they are going to wipe repeatedly, it is progression level content and people are willing to wipe repeatedly and learn it. PUGs are not. If you can find a PUG for that, that doesn't disband after 10 wipes, I'll be impressed.

Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Yes they can, at least quite a few bosses.
Show me an average PUG go into HM EV/KP in full Columi having never done it and clear it fine.

Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
But the majority, again, need Columi to clear it, especially people who never did this FP before.
If you want to continually bring up people who aren't regularly clearning HM LI, you need to consider these same people for all of your gear requirements.

Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
And it's not like the ops, you can clear a few bosses, which are significantly easier than the final one and try next time with better gear. LR-5 is not easier(not much) than Lorrick to Tionese groups.
I personally find Lorrick to be the easiest boss in the instance aside from the constant aggro drops in the burn stage and I've done him as all 3 roles. Hardest part is not yelling at my DPS for the 50th time to stop standing on my side of Lorrick while I kite the Satchel Charges.

Look, you're so invested in this argument that you can't admit your wrong at this point despite vast evidence so I'm going to give you an out (and hope Khevar follows suit) and stop replying here. Do the same and save face.
The Kae-Sare Legacy - The Harbinger
<Vindication> <Retribution>

Gralleh Grall'eh Khyar
Gralleh's Guide to Guardian Tanking [UPDATED for 2.0]

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
12.09.2012 , 09:52 PM | #295
Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
Because you can exclude LI HM from your list without missing out on rewards. It is ENTIRELY optional.
I was trying to give advice to Bioware and make this game better.

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It does drop better gear... Columi and Rakata.
Only the final boss for the majority.

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Consider that people going into HM TFB KNOW they are going to wipe repeatedly, it is progression level content and people are willing to wipe repeatedly and learn it. PUGs are not. If you can find a PUG for that, that doesn't disband after 10 wipes, I'll be impressed.
Because TFB drops the best gear in the game right now, EC NiM is not easier. Once new ops and higher tier is out Bioware is going to nerf it to avoid there are too big gear gap between people. And unlike TFB, LI encourage PUG, that's why it's on the GF selection.

Quote:
Show me an average PUG go into HM EV/KP in full Columi having never done it and clear it fine.

If you want to continually bring up people who aren't regularly clearning HM LI, you need to consider these same people for all of your gear requirements.
I've met groups who can clear a few bosses, but Tionese groups cannot beat even 1 real boss, no matter they know the fight or not, and unlike HM EV/KP, LI encourage PUGs otherwise it would not be on the GF selection.


Quote:
I personally find Lorrick to be the easiest boss in the instance aside from the constant aggro drops in the burn stage and I've done him as all 3 roles. Hardest part is not yelling at my DPS for the 50th time to stop standing on my side of Lorrick while I kite the Satchel Charges.
He is easy with a ok tank and good DPS, so that proved my point.

FlyinSpaghetti's Avatar


FlyinSpaghetti
12.09.2012 , 10:31 PM | #296
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
I've met groups who can clear a few bosses, but Tionese groups cannot beat even 1 real boss, no matter they know the fight or not, and unlike HM EV/KP, LI encourage PUGs otherwise it would not be on the GF selection.
.
Actually "good" tionese groups can clear LI HM, I've met a tank who done it in recruit gear first time with his guild. However by the term "good" I'm talking about the top 5% who are at the top of their game and know their class inside out.

However the gear requirements should not be based on what "good" players can achieve but what the majority can, the reason BW seem to think tionese is OK for the masses is because they probably want more people queuing for it. It's a misconception to the average joe who thinks he can handle it in tionese or recruit on a random PuG GF run when really his group will be picking up the pieces because of it.
Quote: Originally Posted by BaronV View Post
Thats no moon... thats a CARTEL COIN!

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
12.09.2012 , 11:34 PM | #297
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
...

A FP's boss encounters should drop upgrade for the majority, simple role, I don't know why you are against it.
"Should" again. "Should" is a highly subjective thing.

I think that Bioware should design encounter that are difficult, but not impossible. I think that Bioware should bring encounters to the game that cater to different levels of ability. I think there are Tier 1 flashpoints and Tier 2 flashpoints. I think there are Tier 1 operations and Tier 2 operations.

I think that a Tier 2 flashpoint and a Tier 2 operation should provide a significant level of challenge to cater to the more skilled players, to give them a reason to keep logging in. I believe that Jesse Sky is referring to "tuned for Tionese" meaning that it was turned for the more skilled players.

I also think that Tier 2 flashpoints and Tier 2 operations should not be so difficult that they can't be mastered by less skilled players. These players accomplish this by "overgearing" And the gear drops are therefore less rewarding.

This, in my personal opinion, is fair. This is also, I believe the intent of the designers of HM LI.

What I am against, is players trying to convince the designers that they are making encounters too hard. If they believe this to be the case, future flashpoints and operations will hold less challenge.

I have been bringing my voice to this thread over the last 4 months because I want to assure the level designers that harder content is a good thing, and why I believe it to be so. Some day we will see Hammer Station, Mandalorian Raiders, Collicoid War Games, Cademimu, Athiss and The Red Reaper as hard modes. I want these to be Tier 2 flashpoints, very difficult, and require skill and expertise to master.

ruminate's Avatar


ruminate
12.10.2012 , 02:29 AM | #298
Instead of better loot, they could remove repair costs for anyone using the GF. Its bad enough that we have to waste time dying, but throwing credits away because baddies are being bad makes me rage.

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
12.10.2012 , 12:54 PM | #299
Quote: Originally Posted by FlyinSpaghetti View Post
Actually "good" tionese groups can clear LI HM, I've met a tank who done it in recruit gear first time with his guild. However by the term "good" I'm talking about the top 5% who are at the top of their game and know their class inside out.

However the gear requirements should not be based on what "good" players can achieve but what the majority can, the reason BW seem to think tionese is OK for the masses is because they probably want more people queuing for it. It's a misconception to the average joe who thinks he can handle it in tionese or recruit on a random PuG GF run when really his group will be picking up the pieces because of it.
I know there are groups, but it's really hard to meet 1 with GF.

Tionese groups have trouble because

LR-5 fight has a lot of things going on, it's difficult to avoid all the damage from adds/bubble/lava, the tank also has to interrupt every incinerate asap. So Tionese people are going to have a longer fight and mistake has a bigger chance to occur, and their gear does not allow it to happen.

Sav Rak is mostly about the healing, sure people can avoid damage but it's not easy especially with lags, his smash is not hard to manage but 1 mistake on that pretty much=wipe. The boss also have a tight enrage timer. 2 days ago my sorcerer did it with mostly Columi groups and it enraged once when it has 10k HP left. Tionese groups surely will have a challenge.

Lorrick is all about DPS, that group I mentioned finished his 1st phase when the 1st champion Kolto was released and took a little while to finish his 2nd phase(burning rakghouls), his 3rd phase is also a DPS rush so Tionese groups have to do really well on that.

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
12.10.2012 , 01:00 PM | #300
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
"Should" again. "Should" is a highly subjective thing.

I think that Bioware should design encounter that are difficult, but not impossible. I think that Bioware should bring encounters to the game that cater to different levels of ability. I think there are Tier 1 flashpoints and Tier 2 flashpoints. I think there are Tier 1 operations and Tier 2 operations.

I think that a Tier 2 flashpoint and a Tier 2 operation should provide a significant level of challenge to cater to the more skilled players, to give them a reason to keep logging in. I believe that Jesse Sky is referring to "tuned for Tionese" meaning that it was turned for the more skilled players.

I also think that Tier 2 flashpoints and Tier 2 operations should not be so difficult that they can't be mastered by less skilled players. These players accomplish this by "overgearing" And the gear drops are therefore less rewarding.

This, in my personal opinion, is fair. This is also, I believe the intent of the designers of HM LI.

What I am against, is players trying to convince the designers that they are making encounters too hard. If they believe this to be the case, future flashpoints and operations will hold less challenge.

I have been bringing my voice to this thread over the last 4 months because I want to assure the level designers that harder content is a good thing, and why I believe it to be so. Some day we will see Hammer Station, Mandalorian Raiders, Collicoid War Games, Cademimu, Athiss and The Red Reaper as hard modes. I want these to be Tier 2 flashpoints, very difficult, and require skill and expertise to master.
I'm not against difficulty, but the drop should match its difficulty for the majority, the drop should give upgrade to the majority who can do it, that's being fair. And that's most of the good games are doing.

Also LI is different than some OPS, its difficulty of the 3 bosses are around the same level, all of them are significantly more difficult than all the Tier 1 HM bosses and very hard for Tionese groups. So it's not like most of the people with Tionese can at least clean 1-2 bosses, get the upgrade and try to do more next time.

And I don't understand what are you people against? Would the LR-5/Sav Rak fight have less fun if they drop Rakata? No. Will the majority try it with Tionese right now? No, but with better gears, more people will be willing to do it.