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[XXX] Answers Questions Regarding Statistics

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
[XXX] Answers Questions Regarding Statistics
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islander's Avatar


islander
12.06.2012 , 08:19 AM | #111
Quote: Originally Posted by Paokzu View Post
I'm all for balancing PvP, however BW please do it in a way that doesn't have any impact at all on PvE. Make these alterations take place in the WZs themselves! The more balancing that's done erodes the individuality of each class. As it stands these days classes don't differ very much from one to the next. This is evident in SWTOR but even more obvious in GW2, I really don't like that games have gone this route but I expect the player base is mostly to blame. It used to be if you favored one classes abilities over your own, you'd have to go and create a character of said class to experience their specific play flavor, but these days everyone wants to be able to do what every other class can do and whine about it until it's changed or a bland precedent is set. But since we can't un-ring that bell lets at least try to keep things as interesting as possible.
Thanks
Yeah, GW2 kinda wore off for me after about 3 months because of this. Alting truly felt the same. Here, it's not quite as bad plus I'm a star wars nut first and foremost. It's why this is now my 'default' MMO, although I do take breaks from it (usually to go to GW2 or D3)
Gėllies Erimosi, Imperial Deadeye
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SpaniardInfinity's Avatar


SpaniardInfinity
12.06.2012 , 09:24 AM | #112
Quote: Originally Posted by Gidomirf View Post
Kill/Death Ratio:
This doesn't apply to healers. Also, a dps with a pocket healer is going to work better than another dps. When teams are coordinated they get more kills to their deaths. Sometimes, when a Pick Up Group is going up against a premade, one team might have 20 kills for every death. Sometimes a PUG might end up with 5 healers and be unable to kill any of the other team's 2heals-1tank-5dps at all. Abstracting the total ratio for every class when teamwork, team composition, and gear have a larger effect than the native classes is silly.

If you want a good litmus test on which classes die more often, look at Ranked Warzone Matches between evenly matched premades. Even then, the better guilds that form these premades all have VERY stringent requirements on which classes and specs they will field, and/or will accept into their guild. The class/specs that they universally don't take should be buffed/adjusted for PVP if you want to make each class viable with choices for tank/dps or heal/dps.
I agree on this one. Every class should be competitive, but the way they give value to a class doesn't necessarily need to mean they can burst someone down instantaneously. Good team utilities (like Scambling Field, Transcendence, Inspiration) are some such tools. I'd like to see more of them, especially for the classes who are already lagging behind.


Quote:
Field Talent Respecialization:
This needs to be disabled while in warzones. Letting people respec in the warzone makes the Pit an easy win for premades against PUGs. If the goal is fairness, this shouldnt be the case. If the goal is to reward ingenuity and planning, leave it in even though it is unfair. I love playing in the Pit, it's my favorite warzone, But having my team stomped simply because im facing a premade or vice versa is never as fun as an even match.
I actually like the idea of changing skills in a warzone. It means you can be more flexible with your composition instead of being crippled by it. For instance, say you join a warzone with five healers. As one of those healers, you can go swap to DPS to help give your team what it needs. In Huttball you can go tank and be a ball carrier if you don't have one. This I see as a great tool for teamwork and helps make for better teams.

Also, about PUGs v pre-mades, this is an entirely different conversation that doesn't really have anything to do with respecing in a warzone. If they disabled it, would that really solve the problem with PUGs v pre-mades?

Quote:
Gear scaling:
I understand that gear grind is a commonplace strategy to encourage players to take time working on a goal for improving their characters. However the discrepancy between characters that are fully geared and new 50s is so large that a recruit can get two-shot by a decked out Marauder. 6-8k crits against a player with 14k health will encourage the new player to quit, not spend 3 months getting smashed while slowly gearing up to the same level. The well geared players will get angry if you make it easier for others to catch up because they worked hard for their advantage, and the undergeared players will refuse to play an unfair game otherwise.

All in all, the scale of the gear's affect on damage needs to be reduced. Why bother having healers at all if characters will die before I can cast 1 big heal on them? Warzones are getting closer to a confused FPS without enough cover. Healers can be completely shut down by 1 person damaging them and interrupting their heals, or if the other team is coordinated they can focus fire down any target getting healed because heals are nowhere close to the damage output.

Instead of each set requiring months to acquire, providing the players who accomplish it quickly with bonuses like making them more customizable or shiny or giving them a title will ease their frustration when the undergeared players catch up statwise.
The good news on this is that in Update 1.6, the gear gap should be nearly gone. Battlemaster is being removed, War Hero is taking it's place as the middle-tier gear and Elite War Hero is the new highest tier. The difference between EWH and WH will be very nearly insignificant. Min/maxing it would probably have a minimal effect, although it would admittedly be a small advantage.

In addition, you'll be able to get War Hero with Warzone Commendations amd EWH with Ranked Commendations. This should make War Hero as easy to attain as it presently is to attain Battlemaster. Assuming the costs remain identical to where they are now, the grind for the gear is practically gone unless you plan on optimizing your gear. You can literally be able to get full WH in very near a single day if you have time to play, otherwise it should be easy to get you set in about a week if you finish your PvP daily and rack up a few wins along the way. The difference between WH and EWH will be so small numerically that gear's importance in match outcomes should be diminished while player skill begins to shine.

So the only time you will be at a tremendous disadvantage is probably the first week when you start queuing since Recruit is still basic starter gear that is very weak. But once you suffer through that (or if Bioware buffs it to where Battlemaster currently is Expertise/Endurance-wise), you should be on a level playing field.

Quote:
Randomness:
A team randomly full of healers is going to lose. A team randomly with two sage/sorc healers will lose against one with a sage/sorc and different class healer when both teams are equally skilled and geared due to class synergy. Randomness in PvPing through PUGs causes teams to lose because the class balance of the team is such a huge factor in success.

PUGs should randomly add players to the teams that are built by factoring gear-level and spec. That way, teams won't end up with 4+ healers, and it won't be Recruits vs. War Heroes.
See my previous comments. If you respec, your team can control their own composition at their own discretion. It makes matchmaking less problematic and if you're a subscriber, you don't even lose any credits to do so.

As for the last part, Bioware has confirmed something is in the works to match WH v WH and elites v elites. It remains to be seen what the criteria for those categories are, but in my opinion, the biggest difference maker in any warzone is gear. I've seen healer-only teams drive DPS up the wall when the healers are all played well, and I've also seen the DPS lol their way to victory against the same team. Back before they separated 10-49 into their own bracket and the 50s in their own, the team that won was the team with the least people less than level 50. Lately, the team that wins is almost universally the team with the least Recruits.

And while I am usually in a premade, I do spend plenty of time solo-queued as a healer and sometimes as a tank.

Quote:
Bubble spec sorcs/sages are hated because of the bubble stun, but their ability to heal is diminished as soon as another sorc/sage is on the same team putting up bubbles and providing the debuff that prevents the bubblesorc from applying a new one for 17 seconds. And if the debuff were to only apply to the sorc who cast it, a full sorc team could have 8 bubbles on each player every 17 seconds. I don't know of a good way to fix this, but its a great example why solo-queueing and ending up on a team with 3 other sorc healers is really annoying for me.
This is unfortunately a population problem. We haven't seen the numbers for a while but Inquisitor, specifically the Sorc AC was the single most played class back in the spring. I know they are among the most populous healers as well, especially in PvE. And bubble, for better or for worse, has made Sorc/Sage a valuable asset again in PvP.

Again, respeccing or asking for people to respec would probably solve the problem faster.
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Peppzz's Avatar


Peppzz
12.06.2012 , 11:12 AM | #113
Quote: Originally Posted by POPsi View Post
Seriously? I don't want to be utterly negative here, but pvp is one of the most ignored part of the game for the moment... how many times did we get the usual "we are looking into it" stuff, and yet nothing happens. How can you allow these things to go on for MONTHS? I actually don't mind if a class is a bit OP, I can deal with it (lolsmash maras), it happens. But what pisses me off is that mercenary class in basically non-existent in pvp, as well as dps operatives. And these are not beind addressed. How come? They are clearly broken, no doubt about it. And nothing is done about it. I don't even want to mention the also non-existent world pvp. Yeah, it's easier to just scrap it and never talk about it again... but is it something the players like... hell no. Ofc there comes the other problem with the engine capabilities, which is another topic.

So, to sum up, yo had plenty of feedback on these matters from the pvp community, and you say you appreciate it. Well, I don't think so. If you did, you would have done something about these issues by now. These are not problems introduced in the latest patch, they are around for quite a while. So what are you waiting for exactly?
I totally agree.
I am both angry and sad about what they have done to Mercs.
I have played since start and se how the bit by bit destroyd the function of this class in pvp.
Sometimes i think the dev probably hate this class.
You have not done anything good for this type oc class on both sides
the only useful thing it got was the ability to break an attack in 30m
The rocketpunch is more or less useless now after the kickback is gone.
and the dps and survivability (against mele classes) needs to be better so we get a role again in a pvp team.
Please please please do something about this.
I really love the game but this is so frustrating for me as a pvp player.

LarryRow's Avatar


LarryRow
12.06.2012 , 11:12 AM | #114
Quote: Originally Posted by iSoldat View Post
k/d ratios like This
"Error: Division by zero. Data points not included."

...because it wouldn't surprise me.
A classic sig that should not be lost:
Quote:
Stunned , pew pew hack slash , stunned , running backward circles, stunned cannot move, pew pew, break stun, 30 second snare, wha?!?!!? stunned, knockdown, ...less stun more pew pew and hacknslash please.

Dyvim's Avatar


Dyvim
12.07.2012 , 10:03 PM | #115
Quote: Originally Posted by Jherad View Post
...
Evidence STRONGLY suggests otherwise. Balance is not improving. The difference between the most and least optimal classes is larger than it has ever been, and CC, considered by many to have long been out of control was made worse. The devs don't seem to get what is obviously wrong to anyone who spends any real amount of time PvPing - which has caused, and continues to cause a great deal of frustration. It is like they are flying blind - and posts about statistics and their use are an obvious target.
Really sums it up. PvP in this game has fundamental problems any veteran has to trip over to load into a WZ. CC would be my first area for improvement with a class/ AC balance pass a close second. There are only 8 ACs...
The Crystal is the Heart of the Blade.
The Heart is the Crystal of the Jedi.
The Jedi is the Crystal of the Force.
The Force is the Blade of the Heart.
All are Intertwined...the Crystal, the Blade, the Jedi...

Totaltrash's Avatar


Totaltrash
12.08.2012 , 05:06 AM | #116
Firstly, metrics can help with balance, but trying to balance a game with metrics alone will always fail.
Developers of good games (i.e. LoL) have long realized that, but EAware has not and probably never will.

There is NO SUBSTITUTE for hands-on testing by the coders themselves!

Secondly, while there is a lot of rubbish and qq'ing on the forums, it is still unwise to completely ignore the input of the community the way EAware has been doing - case in point, the resolve system:

People who have been around for a while might remember that the majority of players were asking for relatively small tweaks:
- make the resolve bar tick a little slower,
- or make it fill a little faster,
- or reduce the breaker cooldown by a few seconds.
Instead, EAware didn't listen and the result is that today's resolve system is even WORSE than ever before and even more players are unhappy with it.

Lastly, EAware plainly ignores PVP bugs that have been around since launch. Just now, I got out of a warzone where I was perma-stunned in spawn and unable to move until deserter detection kicked me out. This bug has been reported by countless players FOR THE ENTIRE YEAR of SWTOR's existence!

Naturally, my hope that PVP will ever be balanced is close to zero, given their general attitude and inability to fix even the oldest bugs around.

Daiyukie's Avatar


Daiyukie
12.08.2012 , 09:03 AM | #117
Quote: Originally Posted by AstralProjection View Post
As long as teams of lolsmashers aren't roaming the warzones in hordes stunlocking people until they unsub, there's nothing to see here, folks.
Imagine the horror! THE HORROR
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Quote: Originally Posted by gwrtheyn
atm Concealment Operative are like a dog humping on your leg,anoying,but not lethal
Quote: Originally Posted by jaxxxster
Solution : Nerf Operatives. Again.

Gidomirf's Avatar


Gidomirf
12.08.2012 , 09:24 AM | #118
Quote: Originally Posted by SpaniardInfinity View Post
The good news on this is that in Update 1.6, the gear gap should be nearly gone. Battlemaster is being removed, War Hero is taking it's place as the middle-tier gear and Elite War Hero is the new highest tier. The difference between EWH and WH will be very nearly insignificant. Min/maxing it would probably have a minimal effect, although it would admittedly be a small advantage.

In addition, you'll be able to get War Hero with Warzone Commendations amd EWH with Ranked Commendations. This should make War Hero as easy to attain as it presently is to attain Battlemaster. Assuming the costs remain identical to where they are now, the grind for the gear is practically gone unless you plan on optimizing your gear. You can literally be able to get full WH in very near a single day if you have time to play, otherwise it should be easy to get you set in about a week if you finish your PvP daily and rack up a few wins along the way. The difference between WH and EWH will be so small numerically that gear's importance in match outcomes should be diminished while player skill begins to shine.

So the only time you will be at a tremendous disadvantage is probably the first week when you start queuing since Recruit is still basic starter gear that is very weak. But once you suffer through that (or if Bioware buffs it to where Battlemaster currently is Expertise/Endurance-wise), you should be on a level playing field.
Even with a smaller gap between War Hero gear and Elite War Hero, it will still take people more than a month to get the Elite War Hero gear that will make them competitive. The time required to acquire gear by completing dailies and weeklies alone is much more than a month. After 1.6, the first week will see everyone buying EWH gear with a full stock of commendations they saved up for it, and new players still having to catch up. It still separates the serious pvper's like myself and friends on my server, from the casual who might have started saving less than 2 weeks in advance.

On the PTR right now, the pricing works similar to how it is now:
_________________________Elite War Hero Cost_______War Hero Cost
-EWH Weapons/offhands____3475 rwz + WH piece_______(WH = 1550 wz)
-EWH Boots/Gloves_________2000 rwz + WH piece______(WH = 875 wz)
-EWH Head_______________2425 rwz + WH piece______(WH = 1075 wz)
-EWH Legs_______________2225 rwz + WH piece______(WH = 975 wz)
-EWH Chest______________3200 rwz + WH piece______(WH = 1425 wz)
-EWH belt________________1425 rwz + WH piece______(WH = 625 wz)
-EWH Wrist_______________1250 rwz + WH piece______(WH = 550 wz)
-EWH Implants/Earpiece_____1425 rwz + 625 wz________(WH = 625 wz)
-EWH relics_______________1250 rwz + 550 wz________(WH = 550 wz)
wz - regular warzone commendation rwz - rated warzone commendation
WH piece - War Hero piece required to trade in for upgrade to Elite War Hero

This pricing is the same treadmill, and they didnt reduce the price of the weapons and off-hands that have been available already.
* The really unfortunate thing about the EWH gear is that it is identical to the WH gear meshes, just with a slightly different color pallet.

Quote: Originally Posted by SpaniardInfinity View Post
See my previous comments. If you respec, your team can control their own composition at their own discretion. It makes matchmaking less problematic and if you're a subscriber, you don't even lose any credits to do so.

As for the last part, Bioware has confirmed something is in the works to match WH v WH and elites v elites. It remains to be seen what the criteria for those categories are, but in my opinion, the biggest difference maker in any warzone is gear. I've seen healer-only teams drive DPS up the wall when the healers are all played well, and I've also seen the DPS lol their way to victory against the same team. Back before they separated 10-49 into their own bracket and the 50s in their own, the team that won was the team with the least people less than level 50. Lately, the team that wins is almost universally the team with the least Recruits.

Again, respeccing or asking for people to respec would probably solve the problem faster.
Respeccing from Healer to DPS or from any role to any other role would require having separate sets of gear to be effective, meaning you would have to revisit the treadmill and have a second set of gear, because the gear doesn't adapt to your talents. Some classes don't really have a viable dps spec either. But yeah I try to queue with friends mostly as well, and I can usually guarantee 4 people on the team won't be recruits, and that the balance is relatively good when I'm in a premade.

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
12.08.2012 , 02:56 PM | #119
Metrics *can* be helpful. the thing is, you need to look at the right metrics, and there needs to be a lot of them. then you develop a crapload of cross-tabs, and look at how each metric interacts with the others.

anyone who has spent time analyzing statistics before should know this. the problem with bioware, and the reason we doubt their metrics, is that the things they say and do are in direct contradiction with the actual performances of classes.

so until they come out and tell us exactly how they balance classes, or they start making smart decisions, we are going to continue to doubt and second guess them

Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
12.09.2012 , 05:01 AM | #120
I actually don't think that gear has a very big impact on toon performance in this game. Player skill is the biggest factor in determining how well a toon performs. The reason player skill is such a big factor in this game is that the PvP combat system is quite complex compared to other MMOs. That complexity means that new players are placed at the bottom of a lengthy learning curve - hence their severe underperformance. But there is a reason why people PERCEIVE that gear is a big factor. It's because better gear is highly correlated with higher skill. The high skill players are usually the ones who play a lot and thus have better gear. But that is correlation, not causation. So there is another statistics lesson for you....

And while the higher complexity of the ToR combat system provides richer gameplay, it does have another side effect. The difficulty newcomers have in understanding the nuances of it, also applies to the devs. I don't intend to demean the devs by calling them noobs. But the fact of the matter is, the devs have far less ingame combat experience that do top PvP players. A dev might spend 50 hours a week programming, going to meetings, pouring over stats, managing subordinates and he'll be lucky to spend 10 hours a week ingame. And not all of that will be in warzones. Compare that to a top PvP player who can easily pull down 30 warzone matches in a single day, and probably averages 20 a day over a weekly cycle. His practical knowledge of what works and what does not work in the ToR combat system is simply much greater than the devs. The dev needs to understand that and indeed take advantage of that if he wants to perform well as a game manager.