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8man vs 16man NiM EC Discussion


Chaqen's Avatar


Chaqen
11.26.2012 , 03:01 PM | #71
Out of curiosity, i was wondering how many 16 man guilds are proactively trying to clear NiM EC, and how many 8 man guilds as well, and what is the ratio between them?

A rough estimate from The Harbringer would be two 16 man guilds (one that i know have lost a few members since since the start of 1.4), and at least fifteen 8 man guilds. I am not aware that either of the two 16 man guilds are putting in a large amount of pulls (they seem to be more casual if you look at the dates for their TFB clears, compared to other 16 man guilds), while the one guild that has cleared 8 man put in 3 to 4 hours a night with multiple different people to get it down.

What i am getting at is the fact that no one has cleared 16 man EC doesnt mean it is harder then 8 man which has been cleared by 12 different guilds. It just means that there is far greater amount of 8 man guilds in the game, and that the success rate within the operation is probably equal for 16 man and 8 man, and furthermore if we had twice the amount of 16 man guilds active we would of seen a full 16 man clear already.

Feel free to correct me if i am wrong, and that there is a large amount of 16 man guilds in the game atm that trying to push the new content 4 to 6 nights a week.

On a sidenote i agree that the 1st and 3rd fight in EC NIM, is rather weak, the 2nd fight is just a tight dps check... nothing else. Most of Kephess' new mechanics are more or less things preventing guilds from cheesing out the encounter and probably most likely should of been in HM actually...the dps and heal checks are a bit more steep... but it is pretty much a fight that requires 95-99% execution of everyone, which is somewhat rare for swtor.

OriginalTomoka's Avatar


OriginalTomoka
11.26.2012 , 04:15 PM | #72
Quote: Originally Posted by tahoeWolverine View Post
Seriously, try NiM tanks and tell me how close you get. You'll learn things about pushing your guild to the limit that you never thought you'd need to do as far as specifics. As far as how bioware is doing, I think the most we can ask for is steps in the right direction. The fact that we'll, as a community, most likely make it to the 3rd week of progression with bosses still alive is a credit to them. I think the biggest question now is less about how difficult NiM EC is and more about when NiM TFB and/or operation #5 is coming out. That will dictate how many people/guilds keep going (as far as ops at least).
Agree. The issue I have with the Firebrand/Stormcaller fight on 16-man NiM is that it requires too much perfection to down the boss. While I love having a fight that is challenging, there is a major difference between a challenge and perfection; the latter seems a little silly if you ask me.

From some of the 8-man videos I have watched, I have seen players getting hit by Mortar Volley shots and recovering fine. I have seen shields go down early, DPS take a cone from Stormcaller while jumping back on the boss; all of it seems to be recovered fine. In the 16-man fights, maybe, I suppose maybe, if you are lucky enough you can survive that one mistake, but highly unlikely. Getting hit by anything when you aren't a Tank is more surely a one shot, and that is what makes the encounter just unrealistic in my opinion, but who knows I guess.

Donalj's Avatar


Donalj
11.26.2012 , 04:30 PM | #73
Quote: Originally Posted by OriginalTomoka View Post
Agree. The issue I have with the Firebrand/Stormcaller fight on 16-man NiM is that it requires too much perfection to down the boss. While I love having a fight that is challenging, there is a major difference between a challenge and perfection; the latter seems a little silly if you ask me.

From some of the 8-man videos I have watched, I have seen players getting hit by Mortar Volley shots and recovering fine. I have seen shields go down early, DPS take a cone from Stormcaller while jumping back on the boss; all of it seems to be recovered fine. In the 16-man fights, maybe, I suppose maybe, if you are lucky enough you can survive that one mistake, but highly unlikely. Getting hit by anything when you aren't a Tank is more surely a one shot, and that is what makes the encounter just unrealistic in my opinion, but who knows I guess.
As someone who took stormcallers cone regularly at the beginning (im a noob), it CANNOT be recovered from. Shield down? cant be recovered from. Hit by Mortar Volley? someone's gonna die. While some mistakes can be survived, having 16 possible mistake makers just makes it so much harder compared to having 8 that can recover from mistakes.
Donal - Xarea - Pasta - Wotsit - Vebbeg - Potential - Greengiant
Dólan - Hurrimarobot

Ansalem's Avatar


Ansalem
11.26.2012 , 05:55 PM | #74
Quote: Originally Posted by tahoeWolverine View Post
Seriously, try NiM tanks and tell me how close you get. You'll learn things about pushing your guild to the limit that you never thought you'd need to do as far as specifics. As far as how bioware is doing, I think the most we can ask for is steps in the right direction. The fact that we'll, as a community, most likely make it to the 3rd week of progression with bosses still alive is a credit to them. I think the biggest question now is less about how difficult NiM EC is and more about when NiM TFB and/or operation #5 is coming out. That will dictate how many people/guilds keep going (as far as ops at least).
I have killed nightmare tanks with relative ease. It is not hard. The only encounter that is somewhat tuned to nightmare standards would be kephess.

Donalj's Avatar


Donalj
11.26.2012 , 06:05 PM | #75
Quote: Originally Posted by Ansalem View Post
I have killed nightmare tanks with relative ease. It is not hard. The only encounter that is somewhat tuned to nightmare standards would be kephess.
Is this 16 man nightmare, cause I think he is talking about 16 man (which is way harder than 8 man).
Donal - Xarea - Pasta - Wotsit - Vebbeg - Potential - Greengiant
Dólan - Hurrimarobot

nDjiin's Avatar


nDjiin
11.26.2012 , 06:10 PM | #76
So am I getting this right? No guilds have cleared 16man EC NiM?
Kovacs - Powertech Warped - Marauder
Hypnotik - Operative Simulcra - Sniper
Margorach - Sorcerer

Donalj's Avatar


Donalj
11.26.2012 , 06:15 PM | #77
Quote: Originally Posted by nDjiin View Post
So am I getting this right? No guilds have cleared 16man EC NiM?
Yep, FriendlyFire and MoX seem to be the only 2 guilds on Kephess. From what I've seen, most guilds are finding tanks extremely hard (which they are). A lot of 16 man guilds have just dropped to 8 man due to the difficulty of 16 man.
Donal - Xarea - Pasta - Wotsit - Vebbeg - Potential - Greengiant
Dólan - Hurrimarobot

Chaqen's Avatar


Chaqen
11.26.2012 , 06:17 PM | #78
Quote: Originally Posted by nDjiin View Post
So am I getting this right? No guilds have cleared 16man EC NiM?
You should be asking how many 16 man guilds actually trying to clear it? It seems like only a few guilds have gotten past the tanks, no clue if they are working on kephess on a nightly basis, or playing it more relax knowing the encounter is a pita.

DarkhorseForLife's Avatar


DarkhorseForLife
11.26.2012 , 06:30 PM | #79
MoX has been actively working on Kephess on 16m NiM. I can promise you as a guild that has pushed progression in the last tier and this tier we aren't simply "bad" or "messing things up". We have what I would consider a great group of top tier PVE players in our main raid. Our other raids and alt raids are doing 8m NiM content with ease. 16m is simply harder.

As someone who has done NiM EC on 8m now (alts) and as a guild that also does 8m in addition to our 16m (we have 5 raid groups) I can safely tell you that:

-ZnT: It's harder on 16m. Not by a ton, but definitely harder. Not worth talking about as 8m and 16m are not all that different and the difference can be overcome.

-Tanks: Way harder on 16m, by an entire magnitude of difficulty. It's not even comparable on 8m and 16m. You can make mistakes on 8m and still win. It is a fight that demands absolute perfection from your raid. If anyone dies or loses a lot of uptime, it's a wipe. Go watch our video, we have a raid full of nearly BiS people and we made 0 mistakes in the entire run and beat the DPS requirement by a mere second or two.

Anyone out there that says this isn't any harder on 16m compared to 8m... I DOUBLE DOG DARE you to find another 8m guild of similar progression and skill to your own and start attempting it to prove me wrong...

-Vorgath: Not worth talking about, it's a joke on both 8m and 16m.

-Kephess: Not going to reveal much here but I'll post more after we finally beat it on 16m.
Moxboss, Founder of now defunct <Memories of Xendor> on POT5
Darkhorse, Shadowcolt, Blacksteed, Duskfilly
Dimstallion, Shadepony, Luridfoal, Murkgelding
Check out MoX Parser! Real time raid meters and parsing!

DarkhorseForLife's Avatar


DarkhorseForLife
11.26.2012 , 06:35 PM | #80
I don't want to speak for Friendly Fire but I think I can safely say they are also actively working on the fight. Friendly Fire has historically proven itself to be a quality guild of progression raiders through the brief history of this game so far. Outside of that, I doubt other guilds are working on Kephess but I honestly don't think any other guilds have beat Tanks on 16m yet (if they have, they aren't reporting here or on server progression threads).

The real question is, how many guilds out there are actively working on tanks? My guess is more than a few 16m guilds hit the roadblock and took the easy road out (8m).

Our 16m progression raid group is seriously considering breaking into two to three 8m teams for farm mode once we have downed this last boss. That in itself should tell you something.
Moxboss, Founder of now defunct <Memories of Xendor> on POT5
Darkhorse, Shadowcolt, Blacksteed, Duskfilly
Dimstallion, Shadepony, Luridfoal, Murkgelding
Check out MoX Parser! Real time raid meters and parsing!