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DPS question


Truescopes's Avatar


Truescopes
11.23.2012 , 06:37 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by verfallen View Post
Ok so parsed the different spec a bit. They all gave 1100 dps.

I currently have still mostly non end-game gear, armoring are the 23 from daily comm vendor, enhencements and mods are mostly 22s purple, got columni gloves, boot and offhand, with rakata stalker and columni force-master
Implants, and tionese mainhand.

My stats are 702 bonus damage, 34,34% crit, 74,77% surge and 8,52% alacrity, if any of you want to check. Maybe I'm not playing madness optimally, but I don't believe I make a critical mistake either, and that the dps I'm giving you fits my current gear limit.

The "force positive" rotation is pretty much lightning and dots, DF on CD as far as i could tell, shock used very carefully. It does mean my burst is more on demand, at the cost of force (suddenly, shock on cooldown) while what I'm running now is pure random procs, which I grant is a weakness that can be rather critical in some boss phases. But the sustained seems comparable. The stronger AoE comes useful on thrash packs, like the EV ones in between annihilator droid and Gharj.

So top dps? Maybe not. Good dps? I think so. Fairly sure I beat pure lightning in an ops fight where you have to move at any rate.
It's a simple fact that you are losing dps using that build. As it was stated earlier you are losing dps every time you are casting lightning strike, even if it procs off of wrath. It's simple math.
There's no reason to go over it, this spec was lower dps before it was nerfed.

verfallen's Avatar


verfallen
11.23.2012 , 08:25 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Truescopes View Post
It's a simple fact that you are losing dps using that build. As it was stated earlier you are losing dps every time you are casting lightning strike, even if it procs off of wrath. It's simple math.
There's no reason to go over it, this spec was lower dps before it was nerfed.
But how much less, thats the question. 50? 100? 10?

Before writting off a build as unviable, there is also the matter its actually funnier to play with more abilities, and over here I have issue with how the heck a 1,4k instant lightning strike is less dps than 2,9k channelled lightning, especially if CL instant cast procs from it.

Then come AoE in thrash pulls, if I catch 3-4 enemies in the force storm, its a very probable proc in many thrash phases.

So stop hiding behind "ya but maths say its less dps" without making more of a point.

I gave you my stats, if you love maths so much, give me the "numbers" I should expect. Or an alacrity threshold where what you say come true? There is a lot of variable in play here, that can either help your build or mine. Ex, is it worth it if there is no other cast than force lightning's channel to stack alacrity at all, or am I better off with only surge.

Is there a point where the alacrity number will actually clearly make FL the "obviously" superior dps, more than a surge heavy build where the DR start being harsh?

Seriously, I'm not taking people for idiots, I believe them they saw a math demonstration "where wrath powered lightning strike is less dps than force lightning". All I'm looking for is an explanation of what the parameter of that result where, if you know the class, how much dps should I expect from my current stats and how much more i could get with full madness or the cookie cutter hybrid you are talking about.

Don't treat me like an idiotic noob who can't read and is camped on its position, I've read perfectly the first time someone brought that point to the thread, and I believe my post about my build and how it works for me deserves a more specific answer than a stats i've read just before doing it.

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
11.23.2012 , 07:54 PM | #13
I don't think anyone said your build isn't viable. Just that it isn't optimal. Full madness, full lightning or a 1/12/28 hybrid all parse higher.

Lullas's Avatar


Lullas
11.23.2012 , 08:18 PM | #14
Sorry to come in sounding like a complete noob, but what is this hybrid spec that people talk so much about, for whatever reason I can't seem to actually find it in a talent builder. For leveling purposes if somebody would be able to give me maybe a guideline of which order to pick which talents I would be forever grateful. Thank you for all of this wonderful information!

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
11.24.2012 , 01:12 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Lullas View Post
Sorry to come in sounding like a complete noob, but what is this hybrid spec that people talk so much about, for whatever reason I can't seem to actually find it in a talent builder. For leveling purposes if somebody would be able to give me maybe a guideline of which order to pick which talents I would be forever grateful. Thank you for all of this wonderful information!
This was the hybrid that used to be really popular.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201ZfzMMdZcMfRsMkrc.2

It still works well for leveling because you can use chain lightning as an opener on trash groups and then follow with death field. The AOE is really nice for clearing groups. End game, chain lighting is now useless in this build because it has a 3 second cast time. Some people still use a variation of this, taking the point from chain lighting and putting it into seeping darkness in the corruption tree.

This build is OK for endgame, but a full lightning or madness build will give you slightly better DPS. I prefer madness for its mobility.

OlosBC's Avatar


OlosBC
11.24.2012 , 09:03 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by verfallen View Post
Before writting off a build as unviable, there is also the matter its actually funnier to play with more abilities, and over here I have issue with how the heck a 1,4k instant lightning strike is less dps than 2,9k channelled lightning, especially if CL instant cast procs from it.
umm, lol?

1400 lightning strike x2 = 2800 damage in 3 seconds.

Force lightning with that number = 2900 damage in 2.7 seconds

Also, using wrath proc on LS has the chance of delaying your next wrath CD.
Olos - 55 Hybrid Powertech
Fonia - 55 Madness Sorceror
<Dark Fury> of Jedi Covenant
Previously Fonia and Daygoru of Tempest server in SWG.

-IceHawk-'s Avatar


-IceHawk-
11.25.2012 , 12:36 AM | #17
Verfallen,

You seem genuinely interested in figuring out the build DPS priority level.

Quantitatively tested, proven, retested, and re-proven results are posted over at MMO-Mechanics.

The results have not changed in some time:

Full Lightning (3/31/7) is top DPS. Period. [100%]
Full Madness (3/7/31) trails by ~2% [98%]
Hybrid (1/12/28) trails a further 3% [95%]

For starters, the build you are using (0/18/23) is fairly close to the old 0/17/24 build we had pre-1.2. Why is that important to know? With the change to CL this build, when played perfectly, is still inferior to the Hybrid build.

When you introduce further inefficiency (Talenting CL and then Wrath-LS Casts) you increase that disparity.

Basically, every new Sorc attempted to legitimize using LS off of Wrath at some point early on because we “felt” like it was increasing our DPS or Burst.

It never was.

Unfortunately, we no longer have Daellia around to bash the community over the head with the obvious…

I unfortunately do not have it in front of me right now (and someone correct me if I am wrong) but shouldn’t a basic Hybrid build be pulling at least 1,200 DPS at this level?

verfallen's Avatar


verfallen
11.25.2012 , 01:26 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by OlosBC View Post
umm, lol?

1400 lightning strike x2 = 2800 damage in 3 seconds.

Force lightning with that number = 2900 damage in 2.7 seconds

Also, using wrath proc on LS has the chance of delaying your next wrath CD.
I would like to understand how you come to 2800 over 3 seconds, since GCD seems slightly under 1,5 (to be sure I checked with my 1,4 sec cast on LS and it was shorter) and i'm never using it on cast, just instant. It would seem to be 1400 dps no?

In the end tough, I doubt with my current gear I can pull 1200 parses. I get 1250 on level 50 champs, but I'm a lot more bursty, and if I get lucky on the procs, my DPS seems to raise in the 1300ish range on elites fight. Lack of luck seems to drop it to 1050 1100 (one fight in particular where Wrath failed to proc over 4 FL, elite was pretty much dead when it finally did)

I do believe you the others may very well pull forward on dummies. I've seem lightning's numbers, and getting used to madness probably allows better force management (I found using 1 stack of consumption on CD gives more force and the health loss is quickly covered by self-heals and DF) but I'm fairly sure I'll stay with that spec for a number of reasons:

1st I'm at this point convinced my dps is not riding far under the "cookie cutter" hybrid
2nd Better force management allows me to use shock on cd
3rd much more fun to play than pure madness (dot-Df-FL CD Fl Fl Fl Fl df CD!) since i use more abilities, and I find I have a certain versatility.

At similar gear, I also seems to be riding at the same numbers my friend's arsenal merc enough to be 2nd threat rather often if khem drops the mob.

Pure lightning, its nice but for turret play I got a sniper, and imo in live ops bosses aren't dummies and I'm sure madness-using spec pulls ahead in most case.