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8man vs 16man NiM EC Discussion


Aerro's Avatar


Aerro
11.19.2012 , 05:36 PM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by Krewel View Post
erm, no, in 16 bring 2 operative healers and you have more resses than in 8, for sure. Ever heard of stealth ress? They even reduced the cooldown of "vanish"
So your whole argument is that Operatives can stealth rez? You can do that in 8man you know.
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Banegio's Avatar


Banegio
11.19.2012 , 05:44 PM | #52
I see not a single guild has fully completed both 8m and 16m NiM EC. A lot of the discussions have been based on assumptions, second hand info, past encounters, partial operations. Of course it leads to comments and opinions based on partial facts and individual experiences. And therefore the divided opinions. When a guild eventually clears both 8m and 16m, I am sure more respects will be given to their feedback.

No disrespect to 16m groups, but I can understand why some 8m players don't accept the current feedbacks that 16m contents are harder at this stage. The following may explain why.

Before our guild stepped into 16m TfB HM, I have been reading on the forum how the 4th and 5th bosses are miles more difficult than 8m (those posts should still be around somewhere on the forum). We eventually found out that 1st, 3rd and 4th bosses in 16m to be easier. We did switch to 5 heals for a smooth run with 2nd boss. And we found the final boss to be slightly harder. We had a few wipes while the tanks working on holding the aggro and we experimenting the number of dps on anomalies. Saw one enrage before clearing it.

Another reason might be that progression is harder on everyone's first clear. 8m group clear 8m content first and then found 16m easy subsequently. 16m group clear 16m content first and then found 8m easy subsequently.

adezero's Avatar


adezero
11.19.2012 , 06:34 PM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by Banegio View Post
I see not a single guild has fully completed both 8m and 16m NiM EC. A lot of the discussions have been based on assumptions, second hand info, past encounters, partial operations. Of course it leads to comments and opinions based on partial facts and individual experiences. And therefore the divided opinions. When a guild eventually clears both 8m and 16m, I am sure more respects will be given to their feedback.

No disrespect to 16m groups, but I can understand why some 8m players don't accept the current feedbacks that 16m contents are harder at this stage. The following may explain why.

Before our guild stepped into 16m TfB HM, I have been reading on the forum how the 4th and 5th bosses are miles more difficult than 8m (those posts should still be around somewhere on the forum). We eventually found out that 1st, 3rd and 4th bosses in 16m to be easier. We did switch to 5 heals for a smooth run with 2nd boss. And we found the final boss to be slightly harder. We had a few wipes while the tanks working on holding the aggro and we experimenting the number of dps on anomalies. Saw one enrage before clearing it.

Another reason might be that progression is harder on everyone's first clear. 8m group clear 8m content first and then found 16m easy subsequently. 16m group clear 16m content first and then found 8m easy subsequently.

You have no idea what you are talking about. 16m is much harder than 8m.

and guess what, it's the first week of raiding, so no guild can clear both 8m and 16m.

Krewel's Avatar


Krewel
11.19.2012 , 06:43 PM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by Aerro View Post
So your whole argument is that Operatives can stealth rez? You can do that in 8man you know.
yeah, but you're not gonna bring 2x operative healers in 8 man for optimum healing; however, in 16 that's basically a must.

Krewel's Avatar


Krewel
11.19.2012 , 07:38 PM | #55
Quote: Originally Posted by adezero View Post
You have no idea what you are talking about. 16m is much harder than 8m.

and guess what, it's the first week of raiding, so no guild can clear both 8m and 16m.
Every 16 man guild said the same for TFB HM and EC HM, and clearly that was not the case. For now, I'll stay skeptical, thank you very much.

adezero's Avatar


adezero
11.19.2012 , 08:45 PM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by Krewel View Post
Every 16 man guild said the same for TFB HM and EC HM, and clearly that was not the case. For now, I'll stay skeptical, thank you very much.
so why are you arguing when you havent experienced the 16 man?

AshlaBoga's Avatar


AshlaBoga
11.20.2012 , 12:23 AM | #57
Here's what I've noticed:

Tier 1:
SM EV/KP - were both faceroll so no noticable difference
HM EV/KP - the 8 man fabricator fight was slightly tougher
NiM EV/KP - 16 KP was harder on every fight except Fabriator, so 4/5. 16 Ancient Puzzle and Infernal Council were slightly harder, but not by that much. 16 Soa was decently harder but only because of lightning balls everywhere.

Tier 2:
SM EC - 16 man was tougher but post-nerf both are faceroll
SM TfB - 16 man
HM EC - similar but Z&T and F&S were slightly tougher on 16 man
HM TfB - haven't managed to clear 16 man TfB (due to lack of guild interest) but HM Writhing Horror was DEFINTELY easier on 16 man whereas 16 man Dread Guard was harder

Simply put, while I haven't done 16 man NiM EC (only 1/4 8 man atm) if what people are saying is true, then something is very very wrong here. While some fights have been obviously harder on 16 man - Soa, Zorn&Torn, Firebrand and Storm Caller, Dread Guard the fact remained that 8 man was comparable.

The two versions being leagues apart is not a good change, it is a very bad change. Even if 16 man was tougher previously, it was by a small enough amount that it didn't matter too much. Guilds that facerolled 8 man HM EC generally facerolled 16 man EC even if it took them a bit longer to farm it. This doesn't sound like that. This sounds like BW UNDERTUNED 8 MAN NiM EC.
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DarkhorseForLife's Avatar


DarkhorseForLife
11.20.2012 , 01:48 AM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by Krewel View Post
erm, no, in 16 bring 2 operative healers and you have more resses than in 8, for sure. Ever heard of stealth ress? They even reduced the cooldown of "vanish"
If anyone dies at any point on 16m NiM tanks, it's already a wipe. Your ignorance to this is the prime reason your input can't be taken seriously in this thread because you clearly haven't done it.

There are super rare exceptions to deaths being a wipe, like a battle res at the exact right point, but even then the DPS loss is apparent and is a tough hurdle to overcome for enrage timer. We'll be posting a video of our tanks kill soon just to show you how close that enrage timer is (hint: we won with roughly 1 second to spare... 16 members with near BiS gear and great parses).

There is 0 potential to stealth res in this fight. All irrelevant since we only brought 1 stealth class anyway (1 healing op).
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DarkhorseForLife's Avatar


DarkhorseForLife
11.20.2012 , 01:54 AM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by Banegio View Post
I see not a single guild has fully completed both 8m and 16m NiM EC. A lot of the discussions have been based on assumptions, second hand info, past encounters, partial operations. Of course it leads to comments and opinions based on partial facts and individual experiences. And therefore the divided opinions. When a guild eventually clears both 8m and 16m, I am sure more respects will be given to their feedback.

No disrespect to 16m groups, but I can understand why some 8m players don't accept the current feedbacks that 16m contents are harder at this stage. The following may explain why.

Before our guild stepped into 16m TfB HM, I have been reading on the forum how the 4th and 5th bosses are miles more difficult than 8m (those posts should still be around somewhere on the forum). We eventually found out that 1st, 3rd and 4th bosses in 16m to be easier. We did switch to 5 heals for a smooth run with 2nd boss. And we found the final boss to be slightly harder. We had a few wipes while the tanks working on holding the aggro and we experimenting the number of dps on anomalies. Saw one enrage before clearing it.

Another reason might be that progression is harder on everyone's first clear. 8m group clear 8m content first and then found 16m easy subsequently. 16m group clear 16m content first and then found 8m easy subsequently.
Our guild has done both 8m and 16m NiM EC (we have 4 distinct raid groups, 3 of which are 8m teams... roughly 50 active progression raiders give or take). Everyone agrees, the difficulty in 8m is a joke and not even comparable to 16m on the first two bosses. Not enough info to comment on Kephess yet. Vorgath is of course easy on both.

Any 8m raider who still clings to their skepticism simply hasn't experienced 16m tanks yet.
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OriginalTomoka's Avatar


OriginalTomoka
11.20.2012 , 02:09 AM | #60
Quote: Originally Posted by Dragonbgone View Post
We aren't whining, MoXboss isn't whining, right now we're just sharing desperation about he difficulty.
Now, the thing that are annoying both him and myself is that because we 16 man guilds have had a depressingly slower progression than the 8 man guilds, we have been being looked down upon because the community consensus is that "8 man is more difficult than 16 man" without many of the people claiming this having run 16 man content.

I want 2 things: the thought that our guilds are bad because we're going slower in 16 man.
and I want people to be encouraged to run 16 man content because I WANT COMPETITION.
Messores was founded to be a competitive PvE guild, and we're losing competition because most of the 16 man guilds have quit.

I don't want bragging rights over 8 man guilds, I don't want elitism either way, but I certainly don't want being called out on the fleet as a "****** PvE guild" because we're only 1/4 NiM EC.
I think the problem with this entire game is the fact that players are too competitive on either side of the spectrum, from 8-man to 16-man. It doesn't make any guild better than anyone else just because they clear content in a certain way or not. Every single guild that is currently in this instance (and more than likely posting on this thread) is a guild that cares about downing some of the most challenging PVE content the game has to offer. I agree with saying that 16-man is more challenging, as after downing the content in that raid experience it makes 8-man feel less satisfying (I know TFB was quite a joke to heal on 8-man after doing 16-man). However, that is not to say 8-man guilds should not feel a sense of accomplishment. It is true that 16-man guilds bash the 8-mans all the time by saying they are useless until they run 16-man, and I have seen the other side as well as Dragonbgone says. Heck, I have seen it on our server alone. But does that mean that guild is a useless one? Nah, I don't believe that; I think everyone should be proud of the accomplishments they do, regardless what challenge setting they look for.

Because a guild "downs" an instance first does not make that guild better than anyone else in this game, and if you do believe that I apologize. Rankings really aren't relevant based on time, in fact really not at all from how I view this game. I mean in all honestly as Chosen's member said in a previous post, it's hard to find members at certain raid times. Our raid schedule as with every other guild is different. I mean if you REALLY care about downing something and being the best, everyone would have been in the instance from the time the servers hit until they downed the entire instance, even if that meant when servers went down at 2:00am CST. They would have waited the 2 hours of downtime, and jumped right back into the instance at 4:00am CST until they downed it again, but nobody really does that. With the holiday week coming up, our guild only has 2 nights to raid this week as most of our members are leaving town. Does that mean that any other guild sucks because they didn't spend every waking moment downing the stuff?

What I care to see is guilds who have downed the content. Everyone has their own play style and I am sure that
it is nice to record a time of a kill, but be real, some people have more time to play this game then others; don't judge skill based on how fast it takes you to down something. With that being said, don't judge a guild's skill based on if they ran it in 8-man or 16-man; we all work hard to help others and down the content. What matters is seeing which guilds can be friendly to the community on the matter, help others, and still be an awesome guild. I mean raids become less important as time goes on. Nobody brags about EC HM anymore with the content being downed, as nobody really cares about that raid anymore. Eventually as this game progresses, nobody will care about TFB, and so on and so forth as more content is released. For that reason, just be happy you are even running this Operation on Nightmare!

I know plenty of guilds from the Pot5 server that are extremely cool, both Imperial and Republic! Most of the Imperial guilds such as MOX and Chosen (and previously CKN) downed stuff before Severity even downed the content as at the time of TFB we were the only 16-man running on the Republic side until Messores came into the 16-man group later on down the road. However, do I loathe over these guilds downing the content before me if they do or our guild because a "ranking" system that Darkae makes tells me that? No I don't as I am just happy they down it and we represent our server to the best of its ability. There are some skilled players in all of those guilds, just like I see in mine. Do I think these guilds are better than me because they down something earlier in a week than we may? I hope not as I believe we are all very capable guilds at downing content, it just shows that some of us have more time to raid during a week than others. I love talking to the players from the Pot5 16-man guilds, just like I love talking to players from the 8-man spectrum as well (in fact I know Nezra is one of the nicest Imperial players I know from that side ). In all, I am proud of our guilds from any challenge content and I would hope players in other communities would not bash a guild just because they run something in 8-man, keeping in mind you're speaking to a 16-man guild member who plays with 4 different healers on every class (2 of them the same just a different faction! ). Speaking of which, if any 16-man Imperial guilds want to recruit on Pot5 >>...

In all, every guild should feel good about their accomplishments. 8-man guilds should be happy they have downed content and try to aim for that 16-man group, while 16-man guilds should realize that 8-man guilds are able to enjoy the content like anyone else and shouldn't look down on someone's skill level because they are "not doing the instance in 16-man."

I wish everyone good luck in downing the instance, and honestly, my competition comes from the Pot5 server as a whole downing the content before everyone else on other servers! Ha, but that's just me. Anyways I hope everyone can still have fun with this, without letting competition think they are better than anyone else. Everyone is very skilled who does this and I am sure nobody is better than anyone else in that respect, so be proud you are even doing this and ABLE to do this in the first place, regardless of what you run it on as this difficulty is not for public made groups in any fashion.

Anyways, there's my long tale on the matter. Heh, I ramble.