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8man vs 16man NiM EC Discussion


Lareky's Avatar


Lareky
11.19.2012 , 07:59 AM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by Dragonbgone View Post
I want people to be encouraged to run 16 man content
My opinion: That's completely fine, as long as 16m Guilds don't start to look down on the rest and vica versa (On my server the usual response from them is "You killed XY boss? Tell me how great your 8 man team are!", but i think at this state, it's likely never going to happen, because the sad truth is: there are like 400k subs left. Many of those are just casuals who are barely even set foot in an Ops, a big chunk is the PvP community and the VAST MAJORITY are 8 man Guilds. BW is likely never going to encourage ppl to run 16 man, because on most servers it's almost impossible to get 16 decent ppl who are even willing to do 16 man... Again this is my opinion.

And just to reinforce my logic (I DO NOT INTEND TO GENERATE FURTHER FLAME SO PLS REMAIN CALM.):

Gabe Amatangelo: "It is intended that 16 player mode is slightly easier than 8 player mode due to the fact that getting and coordinating 16 players is a larger hurdle in and of itself."

So by default design they aren't encouraging ppl to run 16 man...

Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
11.19.2012 , 09:32 AM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by AshlaBoga View Post
I think the chance to get Qyzen's Kephess skin is increased, but I'm not sure.

Mostly it's just bragging rights. Heroic 25 man in WoW has always been the way people keep track of World Firsts. It's pretty much the same for SWTOR,
people will clear 16 man and then start farming 8 man after they've done it once...
Dream Paragon (10-man World First Guild) would like to have a word with you about that...

Also, there was a 10-man version of a boss encounter (don't remember which one) in WotLK that was deemed harder than it's 25-man version. So it's not always true.

However, in this game, yes, 16-man is much harder than 8-man in.

DarkhorseForLife's Avatar


DarkhorseForLife
11.19.2012 , 12:12 PM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by Krewel View Post
Your "absolute answer" does not apply to every boss in TFB HM nor EC HM, but for EC NiM. This game does not get a free pass, but it will continue to show this imbalance between 16 and 8, and your "special snowflake" whining will not change the situation. The only thing that Bioware can do is allow PTS transfers for EVERYONE and thus provide more and efficient testing, so we do not have nonsense like Col. Vorgath NiM ...
You clearly didn't read and/or comprehend what I wrote. Go back and try again.
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Krewel's Avatar


Krewel
11.19.2012 , 12:54 PM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by DarkhorseForLife View Post
You clearly didn't read and/or comprehend what I wrote. Go back and try again.
Yes, you said ONLY Operator IX is easier on 16 ... not according to my experience. And the whole "16 being harder" certainly does not pertain to EC HM, Kephess HM being the case in point.

For instance, please tell me why Writhing Horror 16 HM is harder than 8 ... you do realize you still get two debuffs to dispel, right?

So, yeah, stop making absolute statements because at this point you are just butthurt Bioware does not pat you on the back for doing 16. You do realize they've stated 16 man Ops are supposed to be easier by default, right? I am not saying they are (this is certainly not true for EC NiM or the last boss of TFB HM), but I am saying whining here will grant you absolutely nothing from a company that has a totally different philosophy than you.

Donalj's Avatar


Donalj
11.19.2012 , 02:43 PM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by Krewel View Post
Yes, you said ONLY Operator IX is easier on 16 ... not according to my experience. And the whole "16 being harder" certainly does not pertain to EC HM, Kephess HM being the case in point.

For instance, please tell me why Writhing Horror 16 HM is harder than 8 ... you do realize you still get two debuffs to dispel, right?

So, yeah, stop making absolute statements because at this point you are just butthurt Bioware does not pat you on the back for doing 16. You do realize they've stated 16 man Ops are supposed to be easier by default, right? I am not saying they are (this is certainly not true for EC NiM or the last boss of TFB HM), but I am saying whining here will grant you absolutely nothing from a company that has a totally different philosophy than you.
I'm sorry to burst your bubble but Bioware have also said that accuracy is useful for tanks, which is clearly untrue. Don't take what Bioware says to be the complete truth. I can guarantee you that 16 man is harder.

Also as another point: On 8 man the 2 tanks have 1 million hp each, 2 million in total (taking these numbers from videos) . Lets say dps have around 280 (numbers from 16 man, could be wrong) seconds of dps on the tanks, that means each of the dps needs to do around 1400-1500 dps (assuming 2 tanks= 1 dps). Lets compare this to 16 man: each tank has 2.5 million hp each, adding up to 5 million. Again, saying dps have 280 seconds to kill the tanks this leaves you with each dps needing to do aroung 1600+ dps (assuming 2 tanks = 1 dps). Correct me if im wrong but there is a clear dps requirement difference here. So to everyone saying 8 man is more of a dps check, please, prove me wrong.
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Nibbon's Avatar


Nibbon
11.19.2012 , 03:33 PM | #46
I think the main problems with this argument thus far are:

1. People are using quotes from 8 months ago ...
2. From an almost entirely different development team ...
3. About their intentions

Simple math, as Donal has shown, shows that 16 man requires higher DPS. Other obvious things would make 16 man harder (16 people coordinating - it is harder to see certain effects when you have more people on the map and therefore some people can get lost in mechanics - on certain fights that require separation there is less room on the map to move - etc.).

The truth is, the fights are usually balanced on 8 man, because that is what is available on the testing servers. When it comes down to it, the dev team is not doing a proper job scaling it up to 16. Again, as Donal pointed out, if total health on Z+T is 2M for 8 man, it should be approximately 4.4M for 16 man (not 5M).

Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
11.19.2012 , 03:58 PM | #47
The other problem is that damage is ramped up in 16-mans. If you made a mistake in 8man that lead you to get hit (by say the cleave of TFB) it was easily livable through. You took maybe 5k damage. In 16man, you take twice the damage, that can be half your life as a dps. So there's more changes for you to get one-shot.

Plus, you don't get double the number of battles rezzes in 16-man. You're still stuck to 1 in a 5-min fight. So chances for someone to die is double, but chances to revive stay the same.

I don't mind the second one, but the increased damage can turn things into nightmares for healers as they have to react a lot faster.

Chaqen's Avatar


Chaqen
11.19.2012 , 04:37 PM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by Donalj View Post
I'm sorry to burst your bubble but Bioware have also said that accuracy is useful for tanks, which is clearly untrue. Don't take what Bioware says to be the complete truth. I can guarantee you that 16 man is harder.

Also as another point: On 8 man the 2 tanks have 1 million hp each, 2 million in total (taking these numbers from videos) . Lets say dps have around 280 (numbers from 16 man, could be wrong) seconds of dps on the tanks, that means each of the dps needs to do around 1400-1500 dps (assuming 2 tanks= 1 dps). Lets compare this to 16 man: each tank has 2.5 million hp each, adding up to 5 million. Again, saying dps have 280 seconds to kill the tanks this leaves you with each dps needing to do aroung 1600+ dps (assuming 2 tanks = 1 dps). Correct me if im wrong but there is a clear dps requirement difference here. So to everyone saying 8 man is more of a dps check, please, prove me wrong.
You forgot the key mechanic of this fight on NIM, the second double destruction. If you getting the second double destruction (and you will on 8 man, unless you have uneven dps on the tanks) you will need to have people switch tanks mid fight, much like the tanks do, and loose out on dps from having to switch. On 16 man you can assign 2 dps to take the 1st DD, and then 2 others to take the second with out needing anyone to stop their flow of dps at all.

Krewel's Avatar


Krewel
11.19.2012 , 04:38 PM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
The other problem is that damage is ramped up in 16-mans. If you made a mistake in 8man that lead you to get hit (by say the cleave of TFB) it was easily livable through. You took maybe 5k damage. In 16man, you take twice the damage, that can be half your life as a dps. So there's more changes for you to get one-shot.

Plus, you don't get double the number of battles rezzes in 16-man. You're still stuck to 1 in a 5-min fight. So chances for someone to die is double, but chances to revive stay the same.

I don't mind the second one, but the increased damage can turn things into nightmares for healers as they have to react a lot faster.
erm, no, in 16 bring 2 operative healers and you have more resses than in 8, for sure. Ever heard of stealth ress? They even reduced the cooldown of "vanish"

Chaqen's Avatar


Chaqen
11.19.2012 , 04:42 PM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
The other problem is that damage is ramped up in 16-mans. If you made a mistake in 8man that lead you to get hit (by say the cleave of TFB) it was easily livable through. You took maybe 5k damage. In 16man, you take twice the damage, that can be half your life as a dps. So there's more changes for you to get one-shot.
I dont think none of the attacks are ramped up to the point of being twice the amount of 8 man... tanks would be getting insta-gibe if that was the case, since in hm ec kephess' rupture attack hits for about 11k in 8 man...