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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

KiranK's Avatar


KiranK
11.19.2012 , 12:36 AM | #941
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Did the Halo 3 matchmaker not match based on an exp system (essential valor)? It would try to match rank 80's together, than after a little, would expand into a rank 70-90, 60-100, etc... It would also try an balance ranking within team (without disbanding groups.) If it matched 4 80's, 2 60's, and 2 50's, you'd see two team of two 80's, one 60, one 50. Rarely (if every) would it match all 4 rank 80's against the two 60's and 50's.

If memory servers, Modern Warfare 2 (and 3?) works in a similiar way. Most people have a wait time of less than a minute or two, groups and pug's are mixed, and the amount of lopsided matches is greatly reduced.
The fact that you compare FPS games to an MMO is just hilarious. And last I checked, you can talk to anyone on your team in Halo 3 or MW2 if you have a headset. Everyone is in voice chat by default. Not true in an MMO. You need a voice program and a server and everyone else needs the info. Good luck spamming it before match starts. Even better luck getting people to actually join. Also consider the player pool of Halo vs. 1 SWTOR server. That's comparing a fishbowl to the ocean. That argument holds no water.

Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Well... shouldn't you feel sorry for people not being able to Play? Not win mind you, since it seems people still can't understand the concept of "Everyone can play any way" is different from "Everyone can win any way."
Why should I feel sorry for the people who can't play? Do they feel sorry for me when they're premade smashes my PUG? That's a totally ridiculous statement. I have no obligation at all to allow them to play. Not my job, just like it's not their job to give me a fair match. But I shouldn't be penalized just because there aren't many premades on. No premade queue popping is not an excuse to go chew on PUGs. Any system that allows that is a complete and utter failure and I'll never attempt to solo queue in a such a system(IE ours).


Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Let's do a little ranking here. Of course other people's idea of "fun" may be different, but I rank "fun" from top to bottom:

1. Close Win.
2. Close Lose/Stomp Win
3. Stomp Lose
4. Not playing.
Your priority system isn't even remotely close. I'd rather not play than get smashed over and over. Notice how I refuse to solo queue, because I know it's totally pointless. So let's restructure it with some realism, shall we?

1) Fair, competitive match with close scores(win or lose irrelevant)
2) Fair, competitive match with landslide scores(win or lose irrelevant)
3) Stomp Win
4) Not playing/Stomp lose
5) Stomp lose in succession

Right away we can see that fairness and competitiveness are the priority. Stomp wins are mind numbing. I can step on ants all day. It gives me no satisfaction. Stomp losses in succession are game breaking. I'd just as soon not play. Fair matches can be entertaining regardless of score outcome. I get to engage in the match. I get to affect it. I get to feel like my performance matters. That is the goal. Not mindless queue popping.

Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
So Inclusive system, you've got majority of people sitting in the 2-3 range. Let's say PuG's have mostly Close Lose, or Stomp Lose. Premades sit more in the Stomp Win/Close lose area. As long as there are 16 people of either pug or premade, everyone plays. It's not perfect, but everyone has some level of "fun."
Again with the, "mindless queue popping is king" mentality. You assume that playing is playing regardless of experience. It ain't.

Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Now you go to the exclusive system. If there aren't 16 premaders, you have up to 15 people in the rank 4 category. If there aren't enough Pug's, once again you can have up to 15 people sitting in the rank 4 category. Instead of taking a imbalanced but playable match, you'd rather up to 30 people (yes, 15 premaders, 15 pugs) having "no fun" just so on off hours, you don't have to deal with your betters.
Uhm, boohoo? I didn't say the system was perfect. No system is, but I'll take a fair match over an imbalanced match any day. So some premade people didn't get to play. Not everyone gets to play all the time. If all those people need is one person then surely they can spam /1 for a soloer who's willing to help out. BAM, you got your last person. You assume that no one ever crosses the boundary and that soloers and premade groups hate one another and never interact ever. This is clearly a fallacy. I don't hate premade groups. Sometimes I want to roll with a premade. However, if I choose to solo, I still want to have a competitive experience. Your system does not give me that on a regular basis, or even a semi-regular basis.

Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
This is probably the one place we agree. Creating a level playfield should take priority over queue popping... but that's what a priority is. If you have an ability that is a priority (ie, rotation) and it is not available (cooldown, intterupted, conditions not met) do you stand there in the middle of a fight and wait for it? Or do you move onto the next priority in the rotation?
I'll rephrase then, creating a level playing field is THE priority. If you can't do that the experience is pointless and you shouldn't even try. You assume that mindless queue popping because "ZOMG not enough premades on" make people want to play the game. You are sadly mistaken. People want to play the game to have fun. Being smashed by a premade because they logged on off hours isn't fun, especially since you're going to see them over and over again because "ZOMG not enough premades on". Then I just stop playing. Then other soloers stop playing. Then people leave mid match. Then NO ONE gets to play. Your system breaks the cycle entirely. You're trying to force it and that doesn't work. Ever wonder why so many people jump ship on WZs early? Because they don't want to suffer through another one sided beating. Many of these problems stem from the fact that your terrible system allows premades to go in and smash PUGs. If them not playing for an hour or two allows all the soloers to queue in peace then so be it. At least then some people get to have an enjoyable experience. Why should the system cater to premades more than solo players? It makes no sense. Just separate the queues and be done with it.
There's no QQing in baseball.

criminalheretic's Avatar


criminalheretic
11.19.2012 , 12:56 AM | #942
[QUOTE=Muramxx;5434631]
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
One, ranked doesn't pop if part of the 8 man is in a warzone.QUOTE]

Sorry had to point this one out. This is you defending premades PUGstomping. Earlier you said people wait a long time in ranked before they would drop to a regular que.... That would mean at least one of them didn't, however I am betting neither of them did because ranked is dead and why do that when you can PUGstomp right.
Dude you really need to get over the idea that everyone that beats you, is doing it just to hurt your feelings.

It's competition, we all want to win.

Sometimes good players queue up alone, and win 1/2 the time. Sometimes good players find 3 other good people to queue up with and win most of the time. Sometimes bad people find 3 good people to queue up with and win most of the time. Sometimes bad people queue up with 3 other bad people and lose most of the time. Sometimes bad people queue up alone, lose all the time, and then come on the forums and say if good people want to play together they shouldn't be allowed in "your" warzone.

If you're good, find 3 other people and queue up with them. If you're bad, youre still going to be bad if you hide from people that are better than you. Stop pretending people have some obligation to not beat you, just because you "want" to win.
What we don't understand, we can make mean anything.
Hyperspace Cannon -> Drooga's -> The Harbinger

Muramxx's Avatar


Muramxx
11.19.2012 , 01:16 AM | #943
[QUOTE=criminalheretic;5434694]
Quote: Originally Posted by Muramxx View Post

Dude you really need to get over the idea that everyone that beats you, is doing it just to hurt your feelings.

It's competition, we all want to win.

Sometimes good players queue up alone, and win 1/2 the time. Sometimes good players find 3 other good people to queue up with and win most of the time. Sometimes bad people find 3 good people to queue up with and win most of the time. Sometimes bad people queue up with 3 other bad people and lose most of the time. Sometimes bad people queue up alone, lose all the time, and then come on the forums and say if good people want to play together they shouldn't be allowed in "your" warzone.

If you're good, find 3 other people and queue up with them. If you're bad, youre still going to be bad if you hide from people that are better than you. Stop pretending people have some obligation to not beat you, just because you "want" to win.
The point in that was that Doom flip flops badly. One sec, is all for fairness and you can't tell people how to play then next she is saying f you PUG's deal with losing or PLAY HOW I PLAY... . lol it's the deffinition of ironic. Yeah Doom has some good idea's but as several people have pointed out she has some really bad ones that would just keep us in the same place we are now, and when called out on the crap ones she flip flops then gets called out and flip flops back.

I don't care if I get beat honestly lol. That's the funny part that you seem to be missing getting beat is part of any game undenably however getting beat over and over no matter what gear you have kills any enjoyment someone has in the game... that means... hold on for it... LESS PEOPLE TO PLAY AND THEN NO MORE GAME. you all really need to look into the future rather then the now. I am more concerned with no ques and a dead game then if I get beat, maybe you should do the same and think more about what you want... a dead game because you PUGstomp every match or a game that starts building a bigger player base and gets better with time.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.19.2012 , 01:17 AM | #944
Quote: Originally Posted by Muramxx View Post
[
Sorry had to point this one out. This is you defending premades PUGstomping. Earlier you said people wait a long time in ranked before they would drop to a regular que.... That would mean at least one of them didn't, however I am betting neither of them did because ranked is dead and why do that when you can PUGstomp right.
It's still possible. Perhaps team 1 sat in queue for 30 minutes and nothing, so they double queue'd. Now they're bored and queue for normal. Team 2 enters, waits 5 minutes (part of team 1 is in a normal match) and because they're impatient (maybe since queue's take forever) they queue up for normal as well. Now neither one will get a queue pop, even though both are sitting in the rank queue.

More common (I find this when trying to form PuG ranked and it drives me nuts) is when you've got one or two in the 8 man solo queue'ing while they wait, not realizing they're holding the other 6 people up.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.19.2012 , 01:22 AM | #945
Quote: Originally Posted by Muramxx View Post

The point in that was that Doom flip flops badly.
Please provide direct quotes where I do not follow these 3 basic points (or as you say "flip-flop").

1) Need Better Matchmaking.
2) Need cross server queue's.
3) People should use all options to better their own lot, before asking the system to bend for them. (Self-reliance, which doesn't refer to playing by themselves.)

Otherwise, that's an unfounded accusation.

Muramxx's Avatar


Muramxx
11.19.2012 , 01:22 AM | #946
Quote: Originally Posted by KiranK View Post
The fact that you compare FPS games to an MMO is just hilarious. And last I checked, you can talk to anyone on your team in Halo 3 or MW2 if you have a headset. Everyone is in voice chat by default. Not true in an MMO. You need a voice program and a server and everyone else needs the info. Good luck spamming it before match starts. Even better luck getting people to actually join. Also consider the player pool of Halo vs. 1 SWTOR server. That's comparing a fishbowl to the ocean. .
I will help out on this one if you want. these games have ingame voice chat... I belive Everquest 1 (since I listed Everquest 2) also has in game voice chat if you turn it on.

Lunia Chronicles http://gamelist.mmosite.com/g/lunia-chro…
An action-packed arcade game that you can feel with your fingertips by manipulating the keyboard to issue commands for an unlimited number of combination attacks. Harmony between essential RPG elements such as character growth, community system and arcade game action.

Soul of the Ultimate Nation
http://gamelist.mmosite.com/g/soul-of-th…
SUN - Soul of the Ultimate Nation is an action RPG game developed by Korean studio Webzen. Currently, it is undergoing open beta testing in Korea. Considering that Sun enjoys more Asian features in regard to its design and style in its three MMOGs scheduled to be released in North America and Europe this year, Webzen has set out to adjust some contents of Sun to cater to the tastes of European and US players.

EVE Online http://feature.mmosite.com/eve/
EVE is a massive multiplayer online game (MMOG) set in a science-fiction based, persistent world. Players take the role of spaceship pilots seeking fame, fortune, and adventure in a huge, complex, exciting, and sometimes hostile galaxy.

EverQuest II http://gamelist.mmosite.com/g/everquest-…
EverQuest II is the next generation of massively multiplayer gaming, a huge online world where friends have come together for adventure and community. Featuring breathtaking graphics and vast, beautiful and dangerous game world to explore, EverQuest II sets the standard for graphical realism as players are immersed in the game's exciting locales and mysterious lands.

Dungeons and Dragons Online
http://gamelist.mmosite.com/g/dungeons-_…
The bustling frontier city of Stormreach, a cauldron of ambition and secret plots, has grown safe and secure as the only gateway to the riches of Xen'drik. But now danger threatens! Few explorers who set out adventuring the lands ever return, and those that do bring back only tales of death and destruction

shall I continue? or is that enough?

Muramxx's Avatar


Muramxx
11.19.2012 , 02:06 AM | #947
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Please provide direct quotes where I do not follow these 3 basic points (or as you say "flip-flop").

1) Need Better Matchmaking.
2) Need cross server queue's.
3) People should use all options to better their own lot, before asking the system to bend for them. (Self-reliance, which doesn't refer to playing by themselves.)

Otherwise, that's an unfounded accusation.
Those 3 things you do stick with it's the rest that is garbage.

Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
<.< Can't ask someone to do something you won't.
I can't ask you to play with premade groups right... but it's ok for you to tell me I have to play against premade/groups and in order to win more matches I have to make a group? That is basicly telling me how to play no matter how you try to spin it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Premade/Group players are sick of players asking for welfare. No one cares about you, no one is looking out for you. Look out for yourself, or get eaten.
That's right no one does care... wait they do care because most of the game is PUGers, and it's actually the 15-20% of players or the "elitists" that don't care because life is good for them so f everyone else right? Like I said before let BW poll the game not the forums that the "elites" prowl like ghosts in a haunted house and you will see how wrong you are. The ques slowing down, the server merges, the F2P are all reasons of this. PUGers do care how ****** it has gotten and are leaving the game. Who do you think will pay for this... not them they moved on to better things, it's you that will suffer.

Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
*Sighs* Ranked is an exhibition place. It is not a practice ground. Again, you do not go to a Tournament to practice Magic, you go to your local game store. If BW wanted to make Ranked the home of the premades, they would have allowed 4-man queuing and put a sign saying "Premades, go here.".
So premade groups not having a premade que that wouldn't mess with their rankings and I dunno give them more comms for example would just be to extreme for practice that means PUGstomping is the practice ground?

As I said you preach fairness but now and then you let the "I am better then you beause I do premades" slip out. I still don't see how your version of fairness is forcing PUGs to compete against premades but giving premades the option of playing each other or not.... because that's exactly what 2 ques would do either you PUG or you don't.

tough to find everything with this many pages on here I am sure there are more.

HuaRya's Avatar


HuaRya
11.19.2012 , 02:23 AM | #948
Quote: Originally Posted by Muramxx View Post
This is the awesome matchmaking sytem that is in place... not only are they the worse PVP class but let's put 7 of them on the same side and see who wins...

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm85/muramx/loss.jpg
The premade pugstompers would look at this and say 'WELL YO SEE YOU ARE GETTING COMMS'.

oooh baby 50 comms per stomped match. Let's see trade 30 in for a Ranked 10 comm and at that rate it will be January 2013 by the time you get a main body WH item.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.19.2012 , 02:48 AM | #949
Quote: Originally Posted by Muramxx View Post
Those 3 things you do stick with it's the rest that is garbage.
Matter of opinion... =P actually not sure why I bothered slicing this quote except maybe to add more =P's faces.

Quote: Originally Posted by Muramxx View Post
I can't ask you to play with premade groups right... but it's ok for you to tell me I have to play against premade/groups and in order to win more matches I have to make a group? That is basicly telling me how to play no matter how you try to spin it.
Most cases I use the "Can't ask others what you won't do yourself" is usually in reference to people telling premaders to find 4 more friends and do ranked, rather than fight PuG's in normal. My point comes to, the Premader (individual) has already found 3 people, and now people think it's okay to tell them "Find 4 more" rather than take the first (find 3 friend) step themselves.

As for you -have to play with premades- I think matchmaking doesn't say that at all. Ideally, (with enough population) a full Pug would rarely fight a premade. Yet, to insure everyone has reasonable queue times, I do not find it unreasonable for PuG's to be both matched with and against premades.

On a side note: A split queue would mean premades suffer from incomplete premades and no backfill, while PuG's would have this luxury.

Quote: Originally Posted by Muramxx View Post
That's right no one does care... wait they do care because most of the game is PUGers, and it's actually the 15-20% of players or the "elitists" that don't care because life is good for them so f everyone else right? Like I said before let BW poll the game not the forums that the "elites" prowl like ghosts in a haunted house and you will see how wrong you are. The ques slowing down, the server merges, the F2P are all reasons of this. PUGers do care how ****** it has gotten and are leaving the game. Who do you think will pay for this... not them they moved on to better things, it's you that will suffer.
On this one, I'm gonna again say we have no data on this. While I think we can agree (through logic) there are more "PuG's" than Premaders (not accounting for cross-over), does 15% to 20% sound right? Even 1 premade is 25% of the match (4/16). If double premades are the issue, that puts them at 50% of the match. =P now before you jump on the math there, I know it's inaccurate and not accounting for faction imbalance, people waiting in queue, etc...

However, before I get to off topic on "Incomplete data" and "drawing assumptions." I believe the above quote was a reference to point 3, which is self-reliance. Once people stop assuming people should -care- for their every grievance, they'll realize they should take steps for themselves (and I don't mean in the "**** everyone else" way.) Though... it was probaby a rude post.

Quote: Originally Posted by Muramxx View Post
So premade groups not having a premade que that wouldn't mess with their rankings and I dunno give them more comms for example would just be to extreme for practice that means PUGstomping is the practice ground?
It's a better practice ground than ranking. The point being that a more "casual" place is where you practice, not ranked. Still, matchmaking would relieve the toll of premade practice on PuG's, and give premades better practice.

Quote: Originally Posted by Muramxx View Post
As I said you preach fairness but now and then you let the "I am better then you beause I do premades" slip out..
Ya... I can get a little rude and hot under the collar, and I can be pretty pompus when fired up. =P Sorry.

Quote: Originally Posted by Muramxx View Post
I still don't see how your version of fairness is forcing PUGs to compete against premades but giving premades the option of playing each other or not.... because that's exactly what 2 ques would do either you PUG or you don't.
Matchmaking would be designed to balance teams, thus the hope would be PuG's would face Pugs (or if it's based on valor/something else, like would face like). I don't wish to "force" other people to get stomped by clearly better players, but in the interest of all, after a certian amount of time the "quality" of the balance provided must be reduced to keep queue times reasonable.

In essence, you have the intention of the split system (like faces like only) but with flexibility to insure the highet number of people are served within a reasonable amount of time.

Quote: Originally Posted by Muramxx View Post
tough to find everything with this many pages on here I am sure there are more.
I still don't see, (with the exception of a few rude/pompous remarks) any where I've "flip-flopped." Perhaps I'm missunderstanding, but a flip flop to me would be:

"We should have matchmaking"

2 lines later

"Screw ya'll! we should force every PuG player to face 4 premades by themselves! (1 vs. 16)"

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.19.2012 , 03:17 AM | #950
Quote: Originally Posted by HuaRya View Post
The premade pugstompers would look at this and say 'WELL YO SEE YOU ARE GETTING COMMS'.

oooh baby 50 comms per stomped match. Let's see trade 30 in for a Ranked 10 comm and at that rate it will be January 2013 by the time you get a main body WH item.
Actually, I say that sucks, you got 7 mercs it looks like.

Then I'd probably comment on how nice it would have been if you had picked 3 of your team mates to more balance that team, followed by how unlikely it is to get 7 mercs again next match.

Finally, for the chest piece it's... It's 1425 for BM, then 9600 (3200x3) for WH, so 11025 divided by 50 comms per match = 220.5 matches, disreguarding dailies.

Likewise, losing each match but playing well enough to get 80 comms is 11025 / 80 = 137.81 matches.

And winning each for 140 comms = 78.75 matches.

=P and cause I'm bored, now the times.

At 15 minutes a match:

50 comms = 55 hours
80 comms = 34 hours
140 comms = 19.68 hours

<.< I think the answer is the grind is in and of itself >.< way too effing long.